Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: AMC new lighting policy

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Posted by Ethan Harper (Member # 472) on 08-26-2002, 08:01 PM:

I was at an AMC theater yesterday and noticed that as you walk in the theater, the lights are all the down to feature level for seating. This was before any television commercials or trailers hit the screen. Non-sync and slides were both going but yet the lights were down all the way to feature level. I went to a manager and told him about it and also mentioned that it was so dark it was hard to look and find a seat. I was then informed by the manager that the lighting levels were intentionally set that way and that AMC corporate has implemented the new lighting level policy he then told me that he was not allowed to touch it. Does anybody know anything about this or why they would do this?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-26-2002, 08:20 PM:

Hey, call the local fire department...if AMC keeps it up, perhaps the government can dictate to them their lighting levels. This sounds like a safety issue.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Jeff Leyland (Member # 1092) on 08-26-2002, 08:57 PM:

I was in Katy last Wednesday and noticed the same thing when I walked through the AMC at Katy Mills. I just thought it had to do with the theatre just opening. Maybe this is AMC's way of making their very own NCN slides look better.

Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 08-26-2002, 09:46 PM:

Most theaters I have been to always have lights right up to the screen, even though there are no seats between 10-20 feet in front of the screen. Perhaps this is AMC's response to the issue of house lights shining onto the screen both during slides and the feature? In our bigger houses at Loews, the slides could be almost completely over-powered by the house lights. Perhaps the advertising company complained to AMC, and money won over safety. There is nothing more precious to a theater's profit margin than advertising...except perhaps popcorn.

Still odd that they would have them all the way down to feature level, usually there is a mid-level for trailers on screen, that would seem the logical first step rather than all the way down. Then again, who said megaplexes are logic-driven businesses, right?

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Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 08-26-2002, 09:53 PM:

I can say with a great amount of certainty that that is a violation of OSHA standards and likely other government regulations. Unless their auditoriums are too bright during the feature that level of lighting is NOT appropriate for seating. It is a safety hazard and AMC should figure out another way to save a few pennies. I would highly recomend that any AMC manager that is reading this keep hard copies of all memos instructing them to set the lighting so low. It is only a matter of time before a patron is injured and a law suit is filed. Protect yourselves so the blame isn't placed on you.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-26-2002, 10:16 PM:

Sounds like they're trying to hide poor cleaning practices!

(kidding, but maybe not?)

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-26-2002, 11:15 PM:

I am not aware that OSHA regulations dictate any particular lighting level for theatres interiors, but if they do, I would imagine that the level would be for safe entry and exit, no matter what the program materinal on the screen, even when it is set at "feature level." In other words, our lighting position for feature is anything but too dark to see the isles or the seating areas-- the isles and the vestibule next to the lobby doors inside the theatre are all lit well enough from overhead lights so any patron walking in or out during the film can do so in safety. Naturally any steps have step lights.

So in actuallity, even if the lights always play at feature level, there should be enough light for people to walk safely in or out of the theatre. The trick of course is to have lighting designed in such a way that even though it is lighting up walking areas, very little stray light hits the screen. Well-designed cinemas control lighting very tightly.

Frank

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 08-27-2002, 12:06 AM:

I'll check out the OSHA book next time I get the chance to see if there are theatre specific guidelines or just general ones. Feature level lighting levels are not adequate for pre-show presentation for two reasons:

1) patrons are not moving in and out of the auditorium nearly as much during the feature. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there recently a court case about someone being injured while exiting during the credits of a movie? The person won on the grounds that the feature was over (I hate mankind ) and thus the lights should have been brought up to a higher lever. I might be remembering this one wrong though.

2) More importantly than point one, when the feature is playing there is a lot more light in the auditorium reflecting off the screen. You can't tell me that a slide presentation lit by a tiny halogen bulb is going to create as much light in an auditorium as a xenon putting 16fl of light on the screen, or hell, even one putting a paltry 8 on screen.

Whichever way you look at it its a dangerous situation and AMC is opening themselves up to serious litagation (if it really is a company policy). I imagine they would lose any lawsuit brought against them because of an injury caused by poor lighting.

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 08-27-2002, 06:43 AM:

I have had similar problems at the local Marcus theatre. It is very hard to see when you enter the auditorium, and I almost always bang my knees on the seat arms as I walk to the center for my seat. The Imax theatre is especially bad...stumbling across the rows is almost inevitable. I have complained in writing and on their web-site, and nothing ever changes. (In general, Marcus tends not to answer customer comments, either positive or negative, at least in my experience.)

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-27-2002, 06:48 AM:

This seems terribly dangerous. At least during the feature, there is a fair amount of light that is reflected off the screen into the auditorium; this wouldn't be the case with slides (unless they are using xenon slide projectors, which I doubt).

The usual AMC program (at least up until last week) had house lights at full (100%) until the end of the NCN commercials, at mid (50%) for the trailers, and at low (0%) for the AMC feature presentation tag and feature. If this has changed, it must be a very new policy and will likely be short-lived due to the safety issues discussed here.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-27-2002, 08:33 AM:

Sufficient lighting must be provided for safety, especially when people are moving about and being seated. As others have noted, the auditorium lighting should not shine ON the screen, to allow reasonable image contrast, even during the pre-show "entertainment":
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/pytlak/dec99.shtml

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-27-2002, 09:26 AM:

I certainly wouldn't rely on the bounce lighting from the screen as my safety lighting for the theatre. This is can't be taken into account when designing theatre lighting -- it's not a guaranteed source of light (like when the projector jams and the safety kills the lamp). And as I said, good theatre lighting design will provide as much lighting as necessary to provide safety at all times -- movie running or not, audience entering/leaving or not, no image on the screen or bright lit screen. The level of safety lighting doesn't change with the number of people moving about at any one time. If the isle is lit well enough for 1 person, it is lit well enough for 200 people. Many theatres have now moved to those rope lights to demarcate the isles. Whatever the design, the safety goal is to
light up all the areas where patrons need to walk with enough light for them to safely maneuver even if the film were to stop with the screen dark and the full lighting did not come up. There needs to be enough light so that they can safely maneuver the isles to the exit doors. This has to be balanced with the need to have the seating area dark enough so that the audience is not distracted during the movie and of course, as John mentioned, all this and still not cause light to hit the screen. It is a tall order and many theatres don't do it very well, but where it is done correctly, all needs are met -- safety, comfort and high screen contrast.

As for the theatre being dark when entering from outside -- there is no way for any lighting system to compensate for people entering the theatre from bright daylight, or even from a well lit lobby. The eye needs as much as 15 minutes to fully dilate to be able to see in a dark environment. We always go to 50% for ten minutes before the end of the preshow music so that the patrons' eyes have a chance to adjust to the "show" level lighting. You cannot walk in from the outside into a theatre without first letting your eyes adjust to the difference in light level, if you don't, well, get ready for lots of plenty of banged knees and shins -- even the danger of sitting in an already occupied seat. There is nothing even the best lit theatre interiors can do to avoid this problem. You just have to wait at the rear of the theatre until your eyes adjust to the lower light level. It's just common sense. Like you should have the expectation of getting burned if you spill a cup of hot McDonald's coffee in your lap.

Frank

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-27-2002, 10:06 AM:

FWIW, if red light is used to illuminate the lobby, dark adaptation is retained, since it doesn't desensitize the rod (night) vision:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/rodcone.html#c5
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/colpuz.html
http://www.ssssclub.com/ecjan97.htm
http://www.noteaccess.com/APPROACHES/ArtEd/ChildDev/SReality.htm

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 08-27-2002, 12:24 PM:

Interesting that this topic got started. I wonder if this recent paragraph in the newspaper has anything to do with it:

Today (August 27) - Orlando Sentinel - "Ticked Off!" (daily column where people write in about stuff that ticks them off):

"I'm ticked off at movie theater chains. They discount movies in the daytime so that we seniors can save a few dollars. When you walk out of the theater you are blinded by the sun. Give free sunglasses when you exit or pay for my cataract surgery -- you creeps!"

Perhaps it would be easier and cheaper if the theater would arrange for the sun to be turned off between showtimes??

Mike:

quote:
Sounds like they're trying to hide poor cleaning practices!

No joke. One of the theaters I worked at (won't say which one) actually made a practice of this. I would watch them through the port window as they swept everything under the seats, and then called on the radio, "Projection? Lower the lights in Auditorium #... a little more, we can still see cups..." Disgusting.

Oh, and someone please remind me to fall and get hurt at an AMC this weekend. I've always wanted to own my own theater chain...

=TMP=

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 08-27-2002, 01:30 PM:

quote:
"I'm ticked off at movie theater chains. They discount movies in the daytime so that we seniors can save a few dollars. When you walk out of the theater you are blinded by the sun. Give free sunglasses when you exit or pay for my cataract surgery -- you creeps!"

That's hillarious! Some people just aren't happy unless they are bitching about something!

Oh, Thomas, I am reminding you: fall and get hurt at AMC this weekend.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 08-27-2002, 01:40 PM:

Well, this makes a LOT more sense (presentation-wise) than having the lights up too bright during the movie, as I've seen at a few theatres apparently for 'safety issues' (theatres are supposed to be DARK during the movie, dammit!)

Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 08-27-2002, 07:02 PM:

The AMC light settings Scott mentioned are correct, but with lights at mid for the end credits also.
When the new policy came out there were a lot of complaints about the walk in levels being too dark and we were told that we could bring them up if we needed to so people could see.

Not to question your judgement, Ethan, but are you sure the lights were at feature level?
If the ceiling lights were completely dark and the sconce lights had only a small glow, then they were at feature level, which is not the policy for the walk-in.

Without going into too much detail, what you should have seen depending on the size of the auditorium, is the front ceiling should have been bright enough to not wash out the screen, and the light gradually get brighter as you move towards the back of the auditorium.
There also should have been plenty of light coming from the sconces, but again not enough to wash out the screen.
This will vary some depending on the size of the auditorium, what type of dimmers are being used, and how many zones are on the dimmer.
In any case, there should be enough light in the room for you to see where you are going, even with the front ceiling lights being dimmer than the rest.
If there is not, then there definitely is a problem.
If you can e-mail me and let me know which theater you went to and if you remember which auditorium you were in, I can contact the technician for that area so he can do a check of that auditorium or the theatre if needed.

Jeff, if you can do the same thing in regards to the Katy Mills theater, that would be appreciated.
I will be with the tech for the Houston area tomorrow, and I will let him know that there is an issue there.

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 08-27-2002, 07:23 PM:

James said:

quote:
Scott mentioned are correct, but with lights at mid for the end credits also.
When the new policy came out there were a lot of complaints about the walk in levels being too dark and we were told that we could bring them up if we needed to so people could see.

Then he said

quote:
If the ceiling lights were completely dark and the sconce lights had only a small glow, then they were at feature level, which is not the policy for the walk-in.

If that's not the policy, than what "new policy" are you referring to?

Posted by Ethan Harper (Member # 472) on 08-27-2002, 08:20 PM:

James,

It was very dark in there. Only the sconces were barely glowing. The ceiling lights were off and I remember because I was jokingly mentioning to my wife that I should go and turn on the work lights so I could actually see where I am going. Maybe the tech just misinterperated the new light level stuff. Why couldn't AMC just only turn down the lighting zone in front of the stage? Do they not have at least a lighting zone for stage and auditorium? Also, why turn down the lights in the first place? Is AMC the only chain doing this or are other theatere chains following this as well?

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 08-27-2002, 08:34 PM:

Could it be that the more money the top dog's get the darker the auditoriums become? They may require more forgiveness...........

Foursooth, what manner of beings, do they portend to be?

Et tu Brute.

How sad.......and then there were none.

Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 08-27-2002, 10:14 PM:

Ken, the new policy is the one Scott mentioned, except he left out the part about lights going to half at the credits.
The difference between this and the old policy is that the old policy had the trailers playing at feature level.
When they outlined the new policy and described how the lights should be set, many people (myself included) set them too low and we got complaints.
When we got complaints, we were told that we could bring them up if we needed to.
I assume this was done because they realize that people need to see.
What Ethan described in his first post and confirmed in his second post is what feature level lighting should be.
What Ethan desribes IS NOT what walk-in level should be and I suspect that a mistake was made in this case and was limited to this auditorium and hopefully limited to even this one ocurrence.
I imagine someone may have accidentally hit the setting for feature level and that is what Ethan walked into.
The manager may not have realized that the lights were actually at feature level and thought that the lights were at walk-in level without checking.
But since I was not there, I dont know.

Ethan, unless you were at an older complex, I dont know of any of our theaters that have separate stage and auditorium lights.
All theaters I know of have ceiling and sconce lights and should be set to the walk-in levels I mentioned in the third paragraph of my earlier post.

When set this way, there is still plenty of light to see where you are going.
The only issue MIGHT be in the very front of one of the larger auditoriums (auditoria?), but that doesnt seem to be the case, at least not in my theater.
I havent been to any other AMCs since the new lighing level policy was implemented.
Again, if you can let me know which theatre you went to and which auditorium you were in, I can let the Dallas tech know so he can check it out and hopefully it wont happen again.

Hopefully I cleared everything up.

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yahoo!: dexter_caldwell

"It is the opinion of the entire staff the Dexter is criminally insane."

Posted by Bernie Anderson Jr (Member # 410) on 08-28-2002, 08:25 AM:

That is crap! I work as a hold over from a GCC and I still put prints together on Thursdays and I can tell you that nothing other than the AMC signs and booth logs, nothing has changed in the presentation. If you read the NCN instructions, NCN tells you that slides, and rolling commercial stock are to be played with lights up and actually all that stuff, going by the book is to start before the start time. They consider the trailers as the beginning of the show and that's lights to MID. So if the show starts at 8PM and you have 5 mins of commercials you start that projector at 7:55PM. And I know for a fact, since I've seen about 3 theatres get built , that the fire department comes in with a light meter to check the amount of light that is needed just in case the show goes down and the lights don't come up. So I'm sure there is a code for all of that.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 08-28-2002, 10:54 AM:

Strange things must be happening in Jersey. In six states, I've never seen the fire marshall check anything other than fire alarms and emergency lights, much less walk around with a light meter.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 08-28-2002, 01:59 PM:

Maybe they should have the lights down for the ads, then come up for the movie?

Posted by Bernie Anderson Jr (Member # 410) on 08-28-2002, 03:46 PM:

You want to talk about strange stuff in NJ, get this, in one of my other theatres they were not allowed to put the pleated fabric on the walls because it is a fire hazard, but it's okay to have masking and aprons on the screen tower. They consider that part of the screen To me it's the same thing but a different color. In the same theatre which is a stadium design, the town wanted hand rails down the aisles of the flat front part of the theatre. That was fought and there is no hand rails there, only in the stadium. And don't get me started with the Handicap access, that's a whole other story. But I've seen in almost everyone of my theatres, the yearly fire inspection also brings a meter reading of Auditorium lights.

But as a can say for this new policy, it might be a district thing, because my instructions are very clear and I can't see what ther reasoning is for this policy. It's asking for trouble.

Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 08-28-2002, 04:59 PM:

The lighting level policy is the same for the whole company.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-28-2002, 06:01 PM:

As far as I know (up until a week or so ago), nothing has changed around here since the GCC days, with respect to house lighting. At one point, there was a rumor that AMC wanted house lights off completely (0%) for trailers, but that was never implemented.

We're using "Movie Pack" dimmers made by "Lehigh Electric" (these are big blue boxes with two sets of dimmer controls--one for stage lights [not used for regular shows due to slides] and one for auditorium lights). These allow up to 8 different lighting levels and fade rates to be pre set and the (same) lighting cue on the automation advances the dimmer to the next pre-set. This would make it very easy to change the house lighting levels, unlike systems where there are different automation cues for each lighting level (e.g. full, mid, low). These are by far my favorite dimmers for automated cinema use; is anyone else using them?

Posted by Richard C. Wolfe (Member # 431) on 08-31-2002, 12:42 AM:

I haven't been in any of our areas AMC theatres as of late so I can't comment on what they are doing in this area. I will agree with Frank when he said that safety requirements usually require that lighting is at a level that makes it safe to see to move about when the lighting is at it's darkest regardless if the feature is running or not. There is no time, or excuse to put patrons in harms way. They must be able to see to come and go at all times.

Part of the problem as I see it is that most theatres today have their lobbies or access hallways much too bright so that when you enter the auditorium ones eyes have not been given the chance to adjust to the lower light levels. For those of you who are old enough to have experienced the grand movie palaces, either as employees or patrons, you probably remember the series of public spaces that separated the entrance from the auditorium. First you had the sidewalk space under the marquee, then the outside box office lobby, then upon entering the front doors there was the vestibule or carriage lobby, then the main lobby, the grand foyer, the standee area, and then the auditorium. Seldom were any of these spaces lighted with white light other then the exterior marquee ceiling and the box office lobby. Each successive room was illuminated with colored light, most often amber in different wattages which continued to lessen as you came nearer to the auditorium. This allowed your eyes to adjust from the outside light level to the auditorium level slowly so that once you entered the auditorium you could see well even with lower levels of light. Many theatres ran "grind" or continuous without stopping for many of there shows, which meant never bringing the houselights up more then 50% during the shorts and trailers. No stage lights were brought up at all except prior to starting the first show and for intermissions before the deluxe evening show(s), and then at the final exit of the night. Not only do most of todays plexes overlight the lobbies and hallways with white light, but use white light in the auditoriums as well. Whitelight in the auditorium was almost unheard of in the glory days of movie theatres. Running lights as they often were called were often red, as red doesn't interfere with the screen image, unless of course it's shining directly on it, and still allows the eyes to adapt to where they can see well in the darkened room. It is not a problem to create sufficient light without using white, plus the use of colored light adds to the restful and relaxing environment that a theatre should convey.

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 08-31-2002, 01:12 PM:

I worked for a guy here in UTAH that employs a former AMC manager. They both have this policy of making things so very dark that you need your own personal flashlight to find a seat.

The reason???

Poor cleaning. This way, they do not have to worry about how the seats look or the floor for that matter.

If AMC has made this switch, it must be to conceal dirty seats, to avoid constant and expensive seat cleaning.

I could be wrong. Hey, maybe they are just conserving energy.

Dave