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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-31-2002, 06:39 PM:
I just got a used Kelmar web media print cleaner so I can FINALLY use FilmGuard.But...The little rubber thingies on the take-up side make it a too-tight fit for the cardboard take-up rollers.
Are they supposed to be so tight? I have to use needle-nose pliers in order to get the cardboard rollers off.
My guess is that this thing was stored with the rubber pieces locked all the way down by the retaining screw for too long and now they are permanently swollen. Does that make sense?
What is the replacement part number for the rubber bits? I don't have a diagram.
[Edited: I found the parts diagram in the "Manuals" section]
~Manny.
"Do I have any openings that this man might fit?"
--Madeline Kahn in History of the World: Part One
Posted by Bob Brown (Member # 1205) on 09-01-2002, 12:24 AM:
Manny: I had the same problem, all I did was to wind the media onto one the keyed plastic cores that Brad sends out with the FilmGuard. The cardboard cores should fit just fine on the supply side of the cleaner to allow a good clean wind, I have also cut some key slots into the cardboard cores that I leave on the supply spindle to add in the rewind after use. But I always use the keyed plastic cores on the take up spindle
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-01-2002, 01:48 AM:
I never remove the cores from the take up side. I just use 'em over and over. I do recommend putting the Film-Tech black plastic cores on the take up side with the keyed part down. They won't grip as tight as the cardboard cores but they won't fly off either.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-01-2002, 03:47 AM:
The latest version of the FilmGuard instructions explains the 3 different sizes of cores. Neumade...too small inner diameter (cardboard)
Kelmar...standard size, but only works well as a takeup core if your rubber inserts are new (cardboard)
Film-Tech...just a tad bit larger inner diameter than the Kelmar, but won't grab brand new inserts (plastic)
Basically, try using the plastic Film-Tech cores on your takeup shafts first. With the thumbscrews tightened down (only finger tight), if the cores cannot spin that is the core you should be using. If the cores can still rotate on the shaft, use a cardboard core (Kelmar preferred). If you end up having to use the Kelmar cores, bear in mind that after a few months the rubber will start to "fatten" as it is used. Once you notice backtension from the cardboard cores during rewinding of the media, you should try and see if the plastic cores will grab on the takeup shafts. It is almost impossible to get a nice rewind of the media if the takeup core cannot free-spin during the rewinding process.
In any instance, never EVER remove the takeup cores from the machine just to change out media. Just loosen the takeup thumbscrews a couple of revolutions and pull the media off. I see more parts lost when people use the mind-set that they have to completely remove those takeup cores to change out media. 
By the way Manny, odds are if you just use the plastic cores for takeup, you'll still have months worth of life left on those rubber inserts.
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-01-2002, 10:05 AM:
All right...I understand everything you're saying and I appreciate the helpful hints...but I thought that the plastic inserts were supposed to be used for the SUPPLY roll of the web media. No?
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-01-2002, 11:45 AM:
Yeah, that too. Technology has advanced to a point where you can use the plastic cores to supply AND take up... at the same time!
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-01-2002, 02:17 PM:
Joe, Joe, JOE! Why are you this way???I'm commenting on the fact that there are only three of the plastic rollers in this box. Two of them are for supply and the third is for rewinding. I guess I'll have to order another kit of FilmGuard.
~Manny (as seen on TV).
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-01-2002, 02:30 PM:
The reason there are only 3 cores in the kit is because it is assumed that people buying FilmGuard already have a functioning cleaner and do not need extra cores for "parts". With the Film-Tech media coming pre-wound onto the coupling cores, there really is only a need to include one core (for rewinding), but not everyone may be getting that brand of media so we have continued to drop 3 in each kit. The cores aren't cheap, which is why we don't go throwing in a handful. 
As you use FilmGuard (and moreso if you use the FT media) you will end up amassing a small army of those cores.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-01-2002, 09:39 PM:
quote:
Joe, Joe, JOE! Why are you this way??
Just 'cause. 
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 05-18-2003, 05:21 AM:
so i've been dealing with this issue lately. the media we're using come out of an unlabeled box so i don't know what brand they are. the cores sit very tight on the takeup shafts and are a bear to rewind. i guess i'll try and convince someone to order f-t media for the extra coupling cores.
but in the meantime, as per the above posts, it seems i should just be reusing the cores when changing media. my problem with this is that the damn things are all wet with filmguard at that point and the tape won't hold. i'm using magic tape (scotch i think), and even when media and core are dry it just doesn't want to stick. i have to make sure i leave a layer or 2 of media wound around the takeup core when rewinding to hold it down. is there a superior brand of tape? should i use lots and lots of it?
are the takeup cores even supposed to get wet with normal usage? i think my saturating technique might need some work. if i hold the spray bottle more or less upright i can only spray the media on one side of the roll. so that side gets dripping wet while the opposite side is dry. if i then rotate the media a little to get at the other side, i end up with slack in the outer layer, and i fear the FG is just kinda rolling off like duck's back onto the floor, instead of penetrating into the roll. and then there's the short length of media going to the idler roller before starting. it seems like that portion should be saturated as well, since the start of the show will be running over it, so i give it a squeeze there, too. i tend to end up with FG all over the kelmar unit and a puddle on the floor, not a drop or two like in the directions. am i just being klutzy?
carl
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-18-2003, 10:34 AM:
Carl, it sounds like you are using Filcro or Neumade media, as they come in the plain brown boxes. Bleh.
To soak the media pads, try the following technique:
Mount the cleaner to the platter bracket so that the cleaner is upside down OR put the cleaner upside down on the edge of a table or desk (don't let it fall off). Remove the plastic black caps from the supply side of the media. With the media completely wound up on the supply side, take the FG bottle and aim it almost (but not quite) straight down on top of the media roll. Begin squirting. Keep squirting until you see a drop or two drip off of the bottom. You may need to move the sprayer bottle laterally left and right after this for a couple of quick sprays to make sure the edges get enough FG. Do this to both media pads. Put the cap back on. You may have a few drops on the cleaner and a couple on the floor as well, but it will provide much entertainment when someone slips on it later.
You shouldn't be getting much FG on the take up core, no.
Brad, we should do a quick video of the proper way to apply FG. I will narrate and add the special effects and 5.1 sound.
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 05-18-2003, 10:53 AM:
The little rubber tubes on my cleaner had gotten the bulges too so I replaced them. All they are is what looks like pieces of rubber hose from the auto parts store. I suspect that if you were to take your cleaner there, you could find a rubber hose that is just the right id/od. A few cuts with a sheet rock knife and you've got replacements.
Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 05-18-2003, 11:32 AM:
I usually apply the FG on the pads before I even load them on to the cleaner. It's just easier for me to apply it that way than to meander the sprayer around the various shafts and rollers on the cleaner. I usually give the pads a shot in each direction: Top, bottom, edges, all over... until it's sufficiently "soaked." then I load them up.
I usually unwind about 5" or so of the pads before I appy FG to them. This ensures the ends will be dry for taping them to the takeup shafts. Then I advace to where the FG begins. Never had a problem once I got the hang of it! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
=TMP=
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-18-2003, 11:34 AM:
Greg,
The "rubber" hose is not as it seems...the ID/OD is not as easy to match up as you would think and I have yet to find it at the auto-parts store.
We have found an equivalent that is slightly larger in ID/OD that fits the Film-Tech cores better if one cuts to the proper length.
Steve
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 05-18-2003, 12:03 PM:
Perhaps so, I never did actually try to find the hose. Maybe a hunk of hose that was not quite perfect in id/od but slightly longer would give enough bulge to cause the necessary friction to turn the plastic cores, since the ends of the cores are supported by the metal squisher pieces. The replacements I got still had a tell tale curve to them suspiciously like rubberhose from the car parts store. They seem to work just fine, but I do have to turn the thumbscrews in all the way
Posted by Don Bruechert (Member # 1538) on 05-18-2003, 01:04 PM:
When I bought my first bottle of FG and went to use it I discovered that one of the rubber cores was missing from my Kelmar print cleaner. I sent an email to Kelmar and explained to them I was a new manager and everyone that knew anything was gone. I explained the problem and asked how to order the part. I got one in the mail a few days later - no charge. I have a great opinion of that company now, which is great, because we are using a lot of their automation equipment too.
The issue I have with FG, that I have been meaning to email to Brad but never get around to it, is that either no matter how much I soak the media, either there is very little FG getting on the print, or the lamp is drying it off before it ever gets to the takeup side of things. I have typically been running filmguard on a print for 4 or 5 plays and then moving on to another print. I only have one cleaner, but I have brackets on all the projectors except 2 of them. I don't know if there isn't enough back tension on the film or what... I have had a couple of times where I have seen "The liquid effect" during the first couple plays of a film, but it is very rare.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-18-2003, 01:22 PM:
A few things can influence that Don. First, what brand of media are you using? The Big Sky/Neumade/Filcro/Standard brands are not too effective in holding the FG on the roll. The Kelmar and Film-Tech media are the better choices, but all will work.
Big Sky/Standard brand media comes in a white corrugated box with a label on top denoting the brand name. Each pair of rolls is in a ziploc bag. The cardboard cores fit extremely tight and frequently cannot be used on the takeup shafts. Obviously you need to wind this media over to the coupling cores before use. We have found that the slitting on these brands is a bit substandard. Recently we have been playing with a sample box of each and the media required constant attention to keep it running straight on the cleaners. Obviously, if it starts to drift to the side, you will scratch your print. The other choices do not have slitting issues.
Neumade/Filcro comes in a lightweight brown cardboard box with no label. Each pair of rolls are shrinkwrapped. This is essentially the same media as Big Sky/Standard brand, just packaged differently and slit better. The cores are super tight as well.
Kelmar comes in white corrugated boxes with no label. Each pair of rolls are placed in a non-sealing bag and taped closed. These cardboard cores fit nicely.
Film-Tech media comes in white corrugated boxes that are clearly labeled. The rolls are placed directly into the box. Why no baggie? There is really no need and it helps to keep the price down. This is the only media that comes on plastic coupling cores. The plastic cores drive the manufacturing cost up for us noticeably, but we do have that recycling program where you can send them back for free FG and media. (I would rather "buy them back" from the customers than buy new ones from the manufacturer. This also helps to reduce the effective cost of the media to the end user.) The plastic cores fit loosely on the shafts so there is little drag during operation. Sometimes depending on your sample of rubber inserts for the takeup shafts, these cannot be used for takeup. We are working on a slight redesign of these cores to address a couple of requests.
Remember the film will not be dripping wet after a pass. The coating is very thin and light. Depending on the film stock and lab, some prints may appear to have liquid streak marks when you are physically holding the film up to a light and other films will appear to have a flat coating from edge to edge. Regardless, this does not affect projection or performance.
The liquid streaking is generally only noticeable on the first showing. It is important to remember that the brighter your projected picture is, the more clearly you will be able to see the streaking. If you are under SMPTE standards of 16fl, you may not be able to see the streaks at all. In both instances, the "first pass streaks" are generally only noticeable on bright scenes.
Posted by Don Bruechert (Member # 1538) on 05-19-2003, 09:23 AM:
I'm pretty sure we have Kelmar media. It comes in a white corrugated box and I don't recall there being a label on it. The box contains plastic bags with 2 rolls of media and 2 extra cores in them. The bags are not ziplock and I don't recall them being taped - I think they are heat sealed. They do seem to have nice even edges and are easy to rewind with the edges lined up nice. I also don't notice any apparent drift while running. I ran one of our matrix prints through last night and it seems like it got coated well. My test for if it is coated is to take a clean finger and briefly touch the film where it comes out of the cleaner, looking for that "greasy" feel, and then another clean finger on the take-up platter. Sometimes the film seems dry coming right out of the cleaner and sometimes it is slippery coming out of the cleaner but dry on the take-up platter. I have wondered at times if there is different supply tension on the film early on, versus when you get closer to the end of the reel. Sometimes it seems like the first half or so of a print gets FG'd nicely, and the last half is lacking. I have tried to compensate for this a few times by not completely rewinding the media, so that the beginning that was FG'd gets the drier media, and later on we get into fresh stuff that is still saturated. This doesn't seem to make much of a difference either. When I look at the film that has been treated *across* a light source, it does not seem to have an even coating, but has a more splotchy appearance like there are some areas of the film that are repelling the compound.
I ran that matrix print through twice last night and it looks like it got coated pretty good. Of course the cleaner was practically dripping when I put it on there, but I got good results. I have to do the other one tonight because I noticed a static problem last night and don't feel like dealing with a potential brain wrap...