Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Dolby CP-650 -- Some Disappointments

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-31-2002, 11:27 PM:

Well...I just got three new CP-650s and they're all installed now. I'm happy with the sound and the EQ was fun with the PC. Actually, it felt like cheating. But having 1/3 octave EQ revealed just how short-changed I should've been feeling with my CP-45s which I once loved so much.

But...installing the CP-650 was no bed of roses...

Mic/Mux pinout differs from that used on the CP-500...Why? Now I have to have two different XLR-to-D9 connectors instead of just one.

I don't like the display. I know that the old one (on the 500) became a problem but this one represents too much of a step backward for my taste.

Is it really necessary for the front panel to stick out of the rack like that?

The software is a little clunky...

Do you really have to disconnect/reconnect every time you want to "send changes" or am I missing something? I found this was the only way to ensure that my changes got sent. They were not automatically transmitted when I saved them or when I disconnected. I found that reconnecting was the only sure way to ensure that the changes got through.

What is up with the mic calibration? I got a dialogue box a couple of times that said "Mic level is too low or too high." Well, could it be any more vague? Which is it...too low...or too high? You'd think they should/could program it to determine that...

It also seems like I'm going to have to get some more Dolby parts if I want to tie the CA-21 (Automation) to the remote volume of the CP-650. Why did that need to change to involve a special part?

Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 09-01-2002, 01:19 AM:

Hi,
We have installed 6 CP 650 in various locations and they work fine. But an beginning one of them made troubles, the sound will lost by moments and we must ship them to Dolby for servicing.
I like the PC based setup: I'ts very easy to adjust the EQ (better than a CP 500 I guess) but I dislike the bult-in RTA analyser, who need a oscilloscope to adjust it. I prefer use a THX R2 Analyser an a second PC to running up. I'ts more accuracy. About the problem with the PC software, pay attention to have the latest version of the soft installed: I'ts sound that early versions has a Bug inside....
I'ts a fact, the LCD screen Is to little, The screen of the CP 500 was more nicer

But I guess thats a question of cost...
the first processor we have exchanged was a CP 200. One time the work finished an tested, We have invited the projectionists of the multiplex to enjoy the "new sound" All was amazed !
For me The CP 650 will be one of the best cinemas sound processor of the 21th.
One disapointement: I think that Dolby should offer more inputs posibilities: Only two non-sync input an two User-selectable format are not enought...

Bye,

(Sorry for my really BAD English)

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Jean-Michel Grin - Europlex Cinemas (Switzerland)

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-01-2002, 01:43 AM:

Manny, they are Dolby. They can do what they want. If they want you to buy new parts from them just to interface with all of the same equipment you already have you will do so without complaint. Now open your wallet and give them the contents. They are Dolby. It is worth it just for the fancy Dolby name. You will not complain of this again.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-01-2002, 02:15 AM:

Ya know, there ARE alternatives. Like the others here...I have found the CP-650 to have its virtues and its weaknesses. It generally performs OK but it too targeted for the mainstream cinema.

For instance, even the format buttons only have the format numbers (something only the CP-200 has any meaning with). Try to explain to a newbie that the "04" button is Dolby-A and that they will almost never have to use it!

Then there are the three buttons for the menus that hang out there in the open...put them behind the cover (even if it is just the flip down cover)...out in the open means "press me!" And to add insult to injury, the first menu option is the "Fader, Local/Remote" so the prize for pressing the wrong button can be NO SOUND with a mysterious "0.0" staring at you until you realize what you did (yes I've been paged over this one).

Sound wise, it is fine though a bit noisy for my tasts (almost unusable for screening rooms with speakers in close proximity) though it is better than the CP-500 in that respect.

The CP-650 also seems a bit more reliable than the CP-500.

From an installation standpoint...it is a nightmare! Only the one "main output" with a DB25 connector so you are screwed on your monitor feed. If you buy or upgrade to "EX" then your output for the surrounds must move to the Option I/O connector (also a DB25)...rather dumb and inexcusable. So what is Dolby's answer...why call Odyssey products, of course...they make kludge boards...an example is shown below.

Again, in a typical mall theatre, a CP-650 will do just fine...in a special venue house with flexibility needs...it can prove to be inflexible.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-01-2002, 04:33 AM:

I second what Steve said! I have a lot of venues that do rather more then one projector and a platter. I've a booth in Dundee serving two screens, in which you'll find 2 35mm, 2 16mm with sep-mag, SR.D, DTS, video and PA. All of which is handled by the CP500s, there's no patching or altering of plugging, you just call up the relevant format and you're away. Trying doing a booth like this with a CP650! No ta!

Manny, look carefully at the difference between the two mic cables. You'll find it's possible to simply ad a link between two pins in the DB9 connector of you're CP500 cable to get it to work with both.

I've never used the CP650 on board RTA. I don't really have a problem with using the scope to display it, that's how we used to work with the Arta600, and very well it worked too. It's just that I carry an Arta80, so there really is no need for me to use the on board gadget.

BTW How tight are Dolby getting? I'm installing a pair of 650 with changeovers, there I am merrily wiring the cells etc, and find that in the bag of bits is ONE DB9 connector, I checked both 650s and had two connectors for two processors. This seems a bit 'scrooge' to me, as the cost of a DB9, relative to the cost of a CP650 is small to say the least.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 09-01-2002, 09:07 AM:

Manny,
if you plan to connect the CP650 to the CA-21 via serial control input you need to use Belden 8771 cable direct from the automation to the processor for reliable results.
Pete,
the lack of install hardware is like the airlines omitting an olive from the salad to save a $1,000,000 in cost

. Many people are using breakout boards from Odessey, Ultra Stereo, Bay Area Cinema Products since soldering in the field is sometimes a problem...even the mini-gas torch type are giving the airline fits in our travels.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-01-2002, 09:53 AM:

We never use break out boards, it seems like an unnecessary expense to me. Soldering on site isn't a problem here, at least not one I've ever encountered.

Actually we did use odyssey stuff on a couple of jobs where the all teh gear had been shipped as apackage from the US. It was ok on the CP500 site, but at the time they didn't make anything for the EX outputs of the CP650, so the other site that used 650 was hald wired with odyssey, and half wired by yours truly and colleagues.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-01-2002, 11:12 AM:

Actually I was told by Dolby that the use of the breakout cards with the CP-500/650 defeat the FCC RFI rules. Both these and other digital processors leak alot of RFI and the metal covered DB connectors are meant to help shield and minimize that leakage.
As far as the 650 goes, I think most of you know my prefrences don't lie anyplace within the digitally based processor realm.
Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-01-2002, 12:15 PM:

The DB connectors were a CE requirement
I never had problems with my OK Industrys soldering station in the toolbox as checked baggage. Also I usually use a crimping tool to do most of the DB connector thing

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 09-01-2002, 12:20 PM:

Mark, won't the audio rack, assuming an enclosed unit, minimize the RFI problems as a system? I know for a manufacturer this is a problem due to CE regulations et cetera based on a per product piece situation hence no more CP-65 units.
In Miami there is a screening room in a building where most of the celluar, pager, and other wireless transmitters for the downtown area are situated; we had more problems with RFI leaking in than out.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-01-2002, 01:13 PM:

That would help being in a rack yet there is actually many installations that use those horrid open frame relay racks and as such would have no shielding (or even those wooden framed road case racks)

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-01-2002, 01:22 PM:

We have a wooden equipment rack for our STL gear and some satellite receivers at the radio station. I have had some problems with EMI in that thing as compared to metal racks that have proper grounding, as long as all the filler panel blanks are in place on the metal rack.

I also have a smaller wooden rack that does just the opposite. If I ground the equipment, it really "sings".

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-01-2002, 08:28 PM:

Out of curiosity...the Panastereo gear bears the "CE" tag yet is an open back plane processor with DSubs and Phoenix connectors.

I crimp 99% of my DSubs so field installation of them is a breeze. If the CP-650 had two outputs (main and monitor) then things wouldn't be as bad. Though they NEED to fix havng the Ls and Rs channels be in different places when EX is implimented...that is a serious design flaw. And referring people to use Odyssey boards is a cop-out.

Whereas I've always crimpped my Dsubs, I've never noticed that Dolby isn't supplying a connector for each potential connection. That would be like not providing a fanning strip for each connector in the older Dolby gear...something that just wasn't done. Yes, Dolby does seem to be slipping here.

But this all goes to my previous statement...if you are building a typical mall theatre...that seems to be what they are targeting.

Pete...have you tried a Panastereo CSP-1200 yet? While certainly not perfect, they are MUCH more condusive to special venue and high-end.

I am working on an installation that has 2-35mm/16mm projectors (featuring optical, Dolby Digital DTS Digital), , Digital Video (Dolby-E, AC-3, PCM), Analog Video (your various Lt/Rt stuff like VHS), Analog Video 5.1...all controlled with an AMX (AMX can control the CSP-1200 via the RS232 port) and there are inputs to spare!

Again, nothing is perfect but it might be worth considering in your future special venue or high-end installations.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-02-2002, 10:28 AM:

I would also like to hear my Non-Sync through the surrounds (like the CP-45). The CP-650 only uses the Left/Right screen speakers for Non-Sync.

Pete: About that cable...even though I am sure your modification would allow me to keep just one cable for use between CP-500s and CP-650s my argument was really that no modification to the mic/mux cable should have been necessary in the first place.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-02-2002, 11:28 AM:

Is it not possible to create a custom format with the NonSync in the surrounds like with the CP500? I haven`t worked with the CP650 yet nor read the manual, does it still have the custom format capabilities of the CP500?
Michael

Posted by John Moriarty (Member # 1153) on 09-02-2002, 12:19 PM:

I don't know anything about the setup with our CP-650 (SR) but I do know that the non-sync uses all the chanels except the centre. I can only presume that this is configurable if other users haven't found this to be the case.

John

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-02-2002, 03:09 PM:

The CP-650 does NOT allow for custom formats. Three buttons (U1, U2 and NS) are assignable to "canned" formats. That is, if Dolby has thought up the format you need then you may assign it to one of those three buttons.

As to Non-Sync not being in the surrounds...I haven't noticed...Dolby's normal method is to have Left to Left, Right to Right and "magic surrounds." You can change the decode to a "pro-logic" that will do a normal 2:4 decode that you might find pleasing.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Patrick de Groot (Member # 858) on 09-02-2002, 03:31 PM:

About that non-sync... Why can't I get the heavy dynamic all frequencies engaged full sound with subwoofer etc. while playing background music. Just to play my favorite cd's! (when there is no audience ofcourse

)
The dolby pro-logic setting doesn't seem to do the trick. At least it does not sound nearly as good as a movie soundtrack.
If it's not possible with the cp650, how about the cp500?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-02-2002, 05:31 PM:

Yes, on the 500 you can create a custom format which will do this. It's a very flexible unit.

Source: NS1 or NS2
NR: Off
Decoding: Non Sync (As Steve mentioned, this sends L directly to L and R directly to R while creating surround ambience with the matrix. Better for music than Pro Logic movie decoding as the latter will generally have things bunching up in C when it's music that was not mixed with matrix playback in mind)
Use the option that allows LF to be sent to the sub.

You can if you want also go to the virtual patch bay and cause either L or R to play through C as well, but only if you want it big and loud and don't care about stereo imaging which doing this will pretty much destroy.

Come to think of it it might be fun to play one of those early Beatles tunes with the singer on one channel and instruments on the other using a custom format to put L on L, C, R and R on the surrounds or something like that.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-02-2002, 05:32 PM:

There is a video pro-logic w/subwoofer setting you can make your "non-sync". Give it a try.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Westlund (Member # 913) on 09-02-2002, 05:57 PM:

Is there anyway to do this on a CP-55?

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-02-2002, 06:48 PM:

On the display panel I only get signals for Left and Right.

In the theatre I do not get anything in the surrounds (I got up on a ladder to check).

On the CP-45 (with the Non-Sync jumper set to "Normal") I get most of the sound coming out of the surrounds.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-02-2002, 06:50 PM:

Do what? Do a 2:4 decode? Yes but you have to use the "DT" inputs on the Cat. 222 card.

For details...check out the DA-20 manual on how to modify the CP-55 so the SRA-5 uses the DT inputs on the Cat. 222.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-02-2002, 08:20 PM:

I actually brought up the lack of flexibility options with the Dolby rep when he dropped in to Sydney about 6 months ago.

It's extremely annoying to have Mono and 'A' hard-locked into buttons when (although it's nice to have them as an OPTION) I will never use them.

Also, the 5 second (maximum) fade to mute is too short by about half. When playing vocal music in the cinema, it really needs at least a 10 second fade. I ended up having to create a macro in the Multimation3 automation to achieve this.

Another problem is the DTS-ES option. Sure, it's nice to have it there, (you can assign it to U2 from memory) but that makes it a non-revertable output. If you actually ask the 650 to play the film in ES with this output it will, but if for some reason the dts unit fails or has the wrong discs in etc., it will not revert to the backup format. Instead, (of course) it just sits there...mute. Thus, the option is pretty darn useless. A better option would have been to allow the external digital output to be assigned with ES. Of course, it's really only a problem if you simply CANNOT use the SRD-EX track, but that does happen occasionally so the print MUST run in DTS, but can only run in 5.1 as a result.

I do like the error rate being included on the main screen though... It's always nice to SEE those 0 and 0. error rates.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-02-2002, 08:56 PM:

Is it at least possible to configure the three "canned" formats with a notebook?
Michael

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-02-2002, 09:33 PM:

A quick glance at the CP650 setup software shows that this does not seem to be possible. That`s a pity. There were also more test tones available with the CP500. The virtual patchfield is also missing. Those were good features. It´s hard to understand why Dolby dropped them. Even harder to understand is why the Mono and A-type formats have to be bound to the format keys. They could be put to much better use in a cinema which has to deal with lots of different playback situations, and in a mainstream multiplex cinema they are nearly useless.
Michael

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-02-2002, 11:38 PM:

Although like I said, it IS nice to have them, but as an option a-la the 500.

One more thing... The Panastereo processor 6 years ago could do a cross fade between formats. Completely programmable and able to be done at cross fade time you desired. It was a fantastic addition. Yet, here we are so many years later and the new DOLBY can't even give that option a whirl. It made for some great presentation changes.

Good ol' Ray.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-03-2002, 04:27 PM:

Would that be Good old Ray Dolby or good old Ray Derrick?

Both seem to be outstanding in their fields!

At this point in time, the Panastereo stuff seems most flexible for new equipment. The fact that it sounds the best too doesn't hurt either!

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 09-03-2002, 05:44 PM:

john,

I never used a cP650 but I read the manuals. Can you explain me better the ES problem, I didn't understood it well...

Antonio