Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 70mm Opening in York (UK)

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Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 09-06-2002, 01:26 PM:

For anyone in the U.K.
Just a shamelss plug for the cinema I work in...

13th October
City Screen York. Screen 1 (A THX screen)
70mm 'Lawrence of Arabia'

More details as and when or from me... renbriggs@o2.co.uk

Cheers
Darren.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-06-2002, 02:02 PM:

A 70mm print also at the Arclight Cinemas Cinerama Dome in Hollywood beginning September 25:
LOA at Cinerama Dome

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-06-2002, 02:17 PM:

Darren, stop being so modest!

For those that are wondering what this is about, Darren has equipped York screen 1 for 70mm at a tiny fraction of the cost of converting a 35mm screen using off-the-shelf stuff. I was treated to a sneak preview last weekend with a friend (who likes films as much as I do but is not a technology obsessive) and we both thought it was amazing. We saw an original 1960s release print reel of My Fair Lady and, having not seen 70mm for years, it really bought everything back. It looks and sounds amazing, even on the slightly faded reel we saw.

If you're in the north of England, look out for 70mm shows at York on www.picturehouse-cinemas.co.uk in the next few weeks... it'll be well worth the trip.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-06-2002, 06:20 PM:

The Senator Theatre in Baltimore is also to run a new 70mm print of Lawrence in the near future.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-07-2002, 08:54 AM:

It sure would be nice if they'd make new 70mm prints of something else, though.

This may be considered sacrilege, but I'm no longer moved by hearing that Lawrence of Arabia or 2001: A Space Odyssey are being reissued. Also, based on the extremely exclusive release pattern, one could easily be led to assume that there are far fewer houses equipped for 70mm than is actually the case. For instance, when I lived in Los Angeles, only the Cinerama Dome showed 70mm revivals -- and usually it was just a once-a-year thing (around October when there is typically nothing interesting in mainstream release).

It's like every couple of years the fans of the 70mm format start yelling "for the love of God, give us something...anything!!!" and the studios take a deep breath and go: "okay let's haul 'em out...AGAIN."

I'd much rather see 70mm revivals of Alien or maybe the Indiana Jones movies or even Grease 2 for crying out loud.

Better yet...how about some 70mm blowups of some curent releases? I would sooner patronize a 70mm print of The Country Bears than some [predictable] token revival. I remember the summer of 1988 when there was always at least one new movie with 70mm prints. Whatever happened to that trend? Did digital audio come along and overshadow 70mm?

Question: could one theatre request (and actually get) a 70mm blowup?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-07-2002, 09:18 AM:

Manny asked: "Whatever happened to that trend? Did digital audio come along and overshadow 70mm?"

Yes, many mistakingly think the only advantage of 70mm was the sound. But "Size DOES Matter" when trying to fill a huge screen:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/pytlak/dec98.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/pytlak/march99.shtml

Some European theatres have been very successful in getting 70mm prints of recent films that only played in 35mm in North America.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 09-07-2002, 11:46 AM:

If anyone goes to see Lawrence of Arabia at the Dome, I'd appreciate knowing what they felt about the presentation.

After seeing the 70mm revival at the Ziegfeld in New York some years ago, I saw it at the Dome and was disappointed. The deeply curved screen had severe distortion of the images at the sides as well as focus problems and the sound reverberated around the theatre so that there was virtually no stereo image (and dialogue was harder to understand.) Presentation at the Ziegfeld (even though it doesn't have any curve to the screen) was definitely superior.

But I see from the Arclight website that the Dome has been extensively renovated with new acoustics, sound systems and screen.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 09-07-2002, 12:02 PM:

Im planning to see it at the Dome. My last experience there was pretty good (Spiderman). Accoustics are much improved. However, the film had lots of scratches on it, and this was on the Sunday after opening. Havent seen full-screen 70mm yet. Unfortunately, LA is soon losing the Century Plaza, the theatre I saw it at back in the late 80's.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 09-07-2002, 07:09 PM:

The acoustics and 35mm image quality at the Dome are greatly improved with the recent renovation. Hopefully LOA will look good.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-09-2002, 01:29 PM:

More information about the prints and playdates, posted on the cml by cinematographer Bill Bennett:
______________________________________________________________________
Subject: See "Lawrence" in 70mm
From: Bill Bennett <wfb4@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 05:06:16 +0100
X-Message-Number: 4

I received the following message from Robert Harris, who supervised the
striking of the new prints, from the 65mm dupe which he created during
the restoration back in 1988.

Regarding where "Lawrence" will be shown, he says, "From what I've
been told, it opens in Seattle and Chi on the 20th, NY and LA on the
25th, B'more on the 27th plus more."

I hope some of these prints migrate over the oceans for others to see
also.

Bill Bennett
DoP
Los Angeles, CA USA

On Friday, September 6, 2002, at 09:23 AM, David Vottero wrote:

> Also, too, playing at the Coolidge Corner Theatre in Boston from Nov 1
> - Nov
> 9th. It's a new 70mm print.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 09-09-2002, 10:21 PM:

Does anyone know why LOA is being re-released? Usually a film release of this sort happens because there's a new video release. Is there a new DVD release that has better elements and/or sound than those created after the restoration in '88?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-09-2002, 10:24 PM:

AFAIK, primarily that it is the 40th Anniversary. Whether a new DVD will be mastered, I don't know. Robert Harris' comments make it sound like it's the 1988 restoration, but new prints.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-09-2002, 11:42 PM:

The 70mm prints are DTS. The poster carries logos for all three so one presumes multiformat 35mm prints are being made available as well.

Posted by Tao Yue (Member # 836) on 09-10-2002, 02:40 PM:

Speaking of the Coolidge Corner showing LOA, are they getting 70mm DTS for this, either as a temporary or a permanent installation? AFAIK they only have mag, and I didn't see DTS readers or CD units in their booth when they showed 2001: ASO. Scott, would you happen to know?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-11-2002, 08:52 AM:

I believe that Coolidge Corner only has mag for 70mm. Supposedly the new LoA prints will be dual-inventory mag and DTS.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-11-2002, 10:34 AM:

Scott: are the mag striped prints new, or from the previous release? Last that I heard, there are only one or two small companies that still offer 70mm striping services due to the cost of meeting new environmental regulations for the solvents involved.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 09-11-2002, 11:33 AM:

In R.A.M.T., the Sony distribution spokesman said all the new 70mm prints had DTS timecode. Several of these prints would, based on demand, be mag-striped (presumably covering up the DTS Time code). He mentioned that Pacific's Sittig had requested a mag print for the Dome.

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 09-25-2002, 04:27 PM:

The follow up film to 'Lawrence of Arabia' for 70mm in York will probably be 'Spartacus' in mid to late September.

Tickets for 'Lawrence' are available now if any one in the U.k. wants to come,
Box office = 01904 541144

Cheers
Darren

Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 09-26-2002, 02:47 AM:

So Darren you are following up the October screening of LOA with a September screening of Spartacus? 11 month wait or have you invented time travel?

Posted by Jan Hackett (Member # 1231) on 09-26-2002, 12:36 PM:

What format are these 70mm prints??? 5:70????

------------------
Jan Hackett
Theater Operations Manager
Extreme Screen Dynatheater
NM Museum of Natural History Foundation

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-26-2002, 12:41 PM:

They are 5-perf 70mm, with either mag stripe (6 tracks) or time code for DTS digital:
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/lobby.htm

Projectable image area is specified by standard SMPTE 152.

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 09-26-2002, 02:00 PM:

Dick ,
It was late when writting email, so my apologies,
Yes Hopefully a NOVEMBER screening!

By the way, ill be bringing the print of Hello Dolly across to you next week as im picking it up from our Cambridge Picture house in the next few days, so ill bring it over when i have it. Saving us securicor prices by picking 'Lawrence' and 'Dolly' up myself.
Multi talented you see us Yorkshire folk, projectionist, engineer, manager and delivery van driver!!
Ill try catch you next week when i bring the print across, maybe Friday morning.

Cya
Darren

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 09-27-2002, 11:29 AM:

The LOA print at the Dome in L.A. is mag stripe only. You can have one or the other on 70mm = mag or DTS. There are other LOA prints around with DTS timecode.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 09-27-2002, 05:46 PM:

Karen

Couldn't you physically take a DTS 70mm print, though, and still mag stripe it? I realize it would cover up the Time Code and make it unplayable, but the mag tracks should still play fine.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-28-2002, 12:14 PM:

Paul asked: "Couldn't you physically take a DTS 70mm print, though, and still mag stripe it? I realize it would cover up the Time Code and make it unplayable, but the mag tracks should still play fine."

Yes you could. If you KNEW ahead of time that the print would have mag sound, you might not print the DTS time code, because AFAIK, DTS requires a second pass through the printer for 70mm.

Posted by Peter Kerchinsky (Member # 1098) on 09-30-2002, 04:29 AM:

I saw the 70MM, DTS print of LAWRENCE at Seattle's Cinerama Theater tonight and have only one word to say about it all
INCREDIBLE!
I wish I looked that good at 40.

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 09-30-2002, 01:53 PM:

Paul,

I suppose you could have DTS timecode and have some mag tracks. The problem is that the timecode covers up the space where 3 of the mag tracks reside. The timecode (on DTS 70mm prints) is placed between the perfs and the film's edge. This allows the picture to accomidate the entire space between perfs.

The only space left is on the other side of the film and you could have only three tracks. That pretty much defeats the 6-track sound and I doubt that any film maker would choose to compromise their soundtrack in that way.

All it takes to playback a DTS 70mm print is a DTS player and a DTS 70mm reader head. The timecode on these prints is huge and many theaters run fine with no analog backup. The only challenge to playing a 70mm film is that some being released are quite long and it can be tough getting the whole print to run reliably on a platter.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 09-30-2002, 03:32 PM:

Karen

If the DTS timecode was between the sprockets and the outside film edge, wouldn't that only eliminate 2 tracks instead of three?

Basically, what I was thinking in my question (I apologize if I didn't ask this clearly) was that perhaps (just asking) that the LOA prints all had developed time codes on them, but that when special mag requests came through, they would take these prints that had already been printed with DTS timecode and mag stripe them, fully knowing this would rob the film of the DTS playback possibility. I have no idea if this is what they did or not. Supposedly it was done on some CDS 70mm prints.

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 09-30-2002, 06:36 PM:

Placed as claimed in several posts, the dts can only collide with a single mag track !

Per

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 10-04-2002, 04:28 PM:

Follow up to 'Lawrence of Arabia' Screening in York (U.K)
is going to be 'Spartacus' on the 3rd of November 2002.
December the 8th ther will be another, title TBC. (My fair lady possibly)

Darren

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 10-04-2002, 05:17 PM:

The FP-75E at the Dome was ordered without a mag reproducer (not just the head, the whole mechanism) as it was assumed that anything coming out would be DTS. Then a rush order was placed for a reproducer for "Larry ND Sand". I don't know if someone thought DTS wouldn't be available or what.

------------------
Larry Shaw
Kinoton America
[Exclusive North American Distributor of Kinoton GmbH]
8 Goodenough Street
Boston, MA 02135-1903
Tel: 617-562-0003 x104 Fax: 617-787-4253
E-Mail: larry@kinotonamerica.com
Website:http://www.kinotonamerica.com

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 10-04-2002, 05:46 PM:

Karen wrote:

quote:
I suppose you could have DTS timecode and have some mag tracks. The problem is that the timecode covers up the space where 3 of the mag tracks reside. The timecode (on DTS 70mm prints) is placed between the perfs and the film's edge. This allows the picture to accomidate the entire space between perfs.

Does this mean that the projected image has dimensions somewhat larger than the SMPTE standard of 1.912 x .870 (2.198:1) or the SMPTE RP65 revised standard of 1.91235 x .800 (2.391:1)?

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 10-04-2002, 05:55 PM:

I thought the SMPTE standard for projection would be the same, regardless if mag tracks were there or not, since that is the maximum image the filmmakers were expecting to be shown. From what I've seen on the web with the SMPTE alignment film, the film would still have to be cropped to get rid of the corner curves on the film, and examples of mag tracking show that very little more than that is lost with the stripes.

By the way, only two mag tracks (one wide mag stripe) lie between the sprockets and the outside edge of the film.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 10-05-2002, 10:39 AM:

SMPTE RP65 is intended as a guideline for enlargements and reductions. Its purpose is to maintain the projectable image aspect ratio of the original format on the release format.

ANSI/SMPTE 152 specifies the projectable image area of 70-mm release prints. That standard is still valid without magnetic audio records.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-06-2002, 07:02 AM:

There had been some discussion of increasing the width of the 70mm projected image area slightly. But even if there are no stripes, it could be problematic as some projectors "touched" this area, with the possibility of causing minor abrasions that would be seen if the wider area was projected. Plus you have the "legacy" of the current 2.2:1 aspect ratio going back almost 50 years.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-06-2002, 11:21 AM:

Make it optional.

Presuming a 65mm camera protects that area adjust the standard so that the extra area can be included in 35mm Scope reductions, reducing or eliminating the vertical crop. Finders should be marked with both widths.

On the projection end, it should be easy to assemble lists of projectors (or gate/trap designs for each) that can use the wider aperture and those that cannot. A new 65mm-originated film composed to the new standard or a 35mm anamorphic blowup (that would otherwise lose the sides anyway) could be marked for wider projection. A legacy title should probably stick to the old ratio. A Super 35 blowup could go either way, depending on how the blowup was done. Theatres with a scratch-free projector would just keep two aperture plates with the admonition only to use the wider one on prints specifically marked as being compatible with that aperture.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-06-2002, 03:09 PM:

The problem is that if the edges of the wider image were slightly abraded by some projectors, it would be difficult to assure that the prints were not sent to those theatres.

It would be interesting to do a survey by examining existing 70mm prints to see if that area is indeed abraded by some projectors. I agree that it would be very useful to allow a wider aspect ratio, especially with 35mm "scope" blow-ups.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-07-2002, 01:19 PM:

A good point which I overlooked but as everyone would still be obligated to honor the old standard if the print had abrasions they'd notice it on the test run and change plates and masking settings for the actual run. I take the liberty of presuming a test run before opening with a 70mm print!

I hope we're not just rearranging the deck chairs...

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 10-07-2002, 03:54 PM:

Part of the reason to do DTS on 70mm is to reduce costs. It would not make ecomonic sense to mag stripe (even only 2 stripes) and do DTS timecode. It is technically possible but I doubt anyone would do it.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 10-08-2002, 05:28 AM:

Info on the 70mm install in York.(U.K.) is on this superb website... www.in70mm.com
The above site is run by fellow film-techer Thomas Hauerslev.

Darren

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 10-13-2002, 06:05 PM:

Just an update on this topic.
I opened my 70mm installation with 'Lawrence Of Arabia' today to a sell out audience (226) and all went amazingly well!

Had a introduction talk on the origins of 70mm and had many people asking afterwards when the next show was. (Spartacus 3rd Nov)
Had to turn people away for today but we are trying to re-screen 'Lawrence' either next sunday or in early Dec if we can keep the print till then.

Darren

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-14-2002, 02:03 AM:

Congratulations on a brilliant show, Darren, and also to Justin and Charlie.

Now if only you could show nitrate...

Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 10-15-2002, 02:48 AM:

Darren

Sorry couldn't make it across but sounds as though all went wonderfully..

Perhaps I can make it for Spartacus.

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 10-15-2002, 06:11 AM:

Dick thers always a ticket for you or any of your porjectionist.
Were re-screening lawrence on the 14th Dec due to so many people being turned away!
So im in the middle of re-advertising Lawrence along with Spartacus.

Heres a question fot you Dick. can you play U-Matic video tapes, ive got hold of a lawrence trailer on it but i cant play umatic.

Cya again soon
Darren

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-15-2002, 06:44 AM:

I can - PAL, lo or high band or UMatic SP. Assuming the rights owner has no problem with us doing the transfer, I can put it on DVD from a UMatic for you. Give me a bell if interested. Sorry to be anal, but I would need written permission from Columbia (or whoever the UK rights owner to the trailer is) in order to do you the copy. Given that it's to publicise a show that they'd make money out of, I wouldn't have thought that they'd object.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 09-28-2003, 12:50 PM:

Darren,

I was at the Picture house yesterday, good to see you now have permanent 16mm, as well as 35 and 70. What did surprise me was to see the digital machine. How long have you had it? does it get much use? How was the pre-show digital 'slide' done, can you just download an image file to it? Can you use the system to project normal video, as well as digital cinema material?

Tell me about the Dolby Screen Talk syseem, how does it work?

Do you have any more upgrades planned, you must be getting to be one of the best equipped cinemas in the country.

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 09-29-2003, 05:12 AM:

Hi Stephen, you should of asked for me and had a look around.
We installed the Christie DLP last week along with a EVS server.
We have so far only used the DLP for Beta SP video shows and powerpoint slides, as you saw.

The DLP can accept any video format via a interface unit call the CINE-IPM. This convets the Analog video (Composite, S, RGB and component) into DVI format that the DLP head can use.

So yes in screen two we have, 16mm 35mm x2 for changeovers,DLP digital cinema and dolby screentalk Audio and subtitle system.
Four projectors in one 142 seat cinema, not bad ehh!

Then in Screen 1 we have 35mm x2 for changeovers and 70mm, THX and dolby screentalk. LCD projection also available for all formats video playback (DigiBeta, Beta SP, DVD VHS and LaserDisc as in screen 2)

So maybe we have one of the most advanced equipmed cinemas in the U.K, who knows! If required we have 2 Vic 5MI projectors for preview theater use if we so desired to install them to go that route, both with 3 track mag followers.

I really should take some pictures and post them on here!

Next 70mm shows are...
Indy Jones Temple of Doom 11th and 12th Oct
Indy Jones Last Crusade 25th and 26th Oct
The Thing 31st Oct
EARTHQUAKE IN SENSURROUND 22nd and 23rd Nov
Krakatoa East of Java 23rd Nov
Gremlins 13th and 14th Dec

Earthquake will be a cinematic experience not matched for years!

Darren

Posted by David Rigby (Member # 1301) on 09-29-2003, 05:28 AM:

I'm hoping to get along to some of these 70mm shows - The Thing would have been a candidate but I'm in London on the 31st. I hope to be there for Earthquake and Krakatoa though!

David

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 09-29-2003, 09:28 AM:

Darren,

I was going to ask for a look, but after the show I was talking to Paul Smith from Paddington Films for a few minutes, and then I had to get out rather quickly, so I didn't have time. I had a quick look up through the ports, but I couldn't see any of the screen one stuff. Where is screen 3?

I was at the 'Harbour Lights' two weeks ago, the first time I've been there.

What is the intention with the DLP, are you going to use it whenever possible rather than film, or as little as possible, only when film prints are not available, or for material originated on digital or are you not sure yet. Do you have it permanently, or is it there for evaluation, and will move around to other theatres in time? How much is available on digital now anyway?

Have you tried running VHS through it? The reason I ask is that a few years ago I did some video projection for a Jewish film festival at the Phoenix, East Finchley. There is a large Jewish community in the area, and it does very well. They got hold of a Sony projector from somewhere, large and heavy, but it used the Texas system, obviously at a much lower resolution than the Digital cinema system uses. While the picture quality from VHS was not great, it was far better than I have seen from any other projection technology, and far better than I expected it to be. You wouldn't screen VHS by choice, but if that is all that is available then it is watchable.

How do you handle the sound from digital, do you have a Dolby DMA8?

I'd like to get up to a 70mm show, but there's a problem. The first coach from London arrives in York at 14:30, and the cheapest walk-on rail fare from Kings Cross is now £63.90! There are cheaper fares if you book in advance, but I never know until a day or to beforehand if I will be free on a weekend. I'm now earning rather less than I have been inthe past, so I have to be careful with the spending; I can't come up too often.

David says he hopes to be there for the November shows; how about making it a 'Film-Tech UK' get together if anyone else can make it that weekend.

You can't get hold of anything with a Perspecta track on it, can you? I've got a print sitting under my desk at the moment, but it's only a cartoon, and doesn't make very good use of the process. I've got one of Dion Hanson's Perspecta cards which fits in place of a Cat 150. It would be yet another format you could run.

How about a 4 track mag show, you've got the MPU, I don't know if any of your projectors have 35mm mag heads, the vic 8 may have.

Can you interlock? How about hireing a silver screen and doing some 2-strip 3-D.

[ 09-29-2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Furley ]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-29-2003, 10:31 AM:

Hi Stephen,

I'm sure Darren will answer when he gets a moment, but as the former Darren, so to speak...

quote:
Where is screen 3?

Right at the other end of the building, above the bar (turn left instead of right at the top of the stairs).

quote:
Have you tried running VHS through it?

I don't know if Darren has, but he's shown me some Beta SP (PAL). I certainly think that the xenon lamp gives the video projector a 'brighter' colour temperature than the quartz/halogen lamps you normally get in video projectors, and being fed with the proper 'digital cinema' data the picture is certainly very bright and crisp. But I just don't think it has the contrast and saturation as a good 35mm print - not sure how to put it in words, but you can just see that it's still very much a second best to film. But if you think of it as a glorified video projector then the picture certainly looks very good. You can definitely tell that the SP is a videotape. I can't see VHS looking like a significant improvement on the output from a £10k S-XGA projector to be honest - the limitation is in the signal recorded on the tape, not the machine used to project it.

quote:
...and the cheapest walk-on rail fare from Kings Cross is now £63.90!

Tell me about it! And if you want to travel at any remotely useful time you're looking at a minimum of £135. Grim Never-Ending Ripoff know full well that they have an absolute monopoly on the only means of getting from York to London in two hours (that is, assuming the trains work, which they usually don't), and can thus milk the passenger for whatever the hell they like. To put this in perspective, the full open Newcastle fare from York is £24. If you work that out per mile, that should equal a London fare of £68, walk-on and travelling any time you like. Isn't it interesting how there are three train companies going between York and Newcastle, and only one between York and London? Despite the faff and cost of driving to Leeds/Bradford, parking and then getting in from Heathrow, I'm doing London meetings by air now when arriving at a certain time is remotely important, because rail is simply too expensive and unreliable. I can go out on the 0645 for £68 return: even when you factor in the cost of parking and getting to/from airports, it still works out at £30-40 cheaper than the train if you need to be in London for a 9 O'clock meeting.

quote:
How about a 4 track mag show, you've got the MPU, I don't know if any of your projectors have 35mm mag heads, the vic 8 may have.

Screen 1 at York can show four-track mag and Darren has done a demonstration of it, using a print borrowed from a private collection. But the fact is that just aren't that many mag prints available now, and most of the ones which are are held by the NFTVA, which won't allow them to be run on a platter.

Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 09-29-2003, 10:37 AM:

Darren

is that "our" Krakatoa print?

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 09-29-2003, 12:22 PM:

Leo,

Re your comments on VHS, that's what I would have expected, but it really did look better than I've seen with VHS from any other projector, including the one in NFT 1, which is probably the best that I've seen otherwise. I don't know if the projector had some digital signal processing built in to improve poor source material, but it looked more like I would have expected from U-Matic. Nothing like as good as Beta SP, but better than I've seen from VHS on anything else. How did the Beta SP look on the DLP machine, compared to a normal video projector?

From the Hertfordshire Railtours site:

YORK MIDWEEK DAY OUT
Merrymakers - THURSDAY 2 OCTOBER 2003
to THE CITY OF YORK, from London King`s Cross, Potters Bar (for M25), Stevenage and Peterborough.

York, with its endless attractions, is a great place to visit at any time, but it`s certainly more relaxed midweek! Entry to the National Railway Museum is now free of charge. You get valuable discounts on York Boat river cruises and City Sightseeing open top city tours - plus half price admission to the York Model Railway. A great day out is assured, so why not bring your friends along too! We reach York at 11.28 and stay until 18.21, so you can really make the most of your visit!

The Standard fare is only £19.50 (Junior £9.75) and availability is limited. Sorry - there is no First Class Gold accommodation to York on this tour.

London King's Cross depart 07:55 arrive back 21:06
Potters Bar (for M25) depart 08:15 arrive back 20:49

Stevenage depart 08:38 arrive back 20:32

Peterborough depart 09:39 arrive back 19:57

AVAILABILITY: This tour is over 90% full.

Saturday trips to York, when they have them listed, are slightly more, about £24 I think. You might expect a charter train to be cheaper, but HRT are not a charity, they aim to make a profit, and they have to pay for the stock, locomotive, path, power or fuel, etc. Obviously, this isn't a travel when you like service, but if they can do it at these prices, then a saver return really shouldn't cost more than three times as much.

You also get nice comfortable 40 year old Mk.1 stock, which I much prefer to the modern stuff, but not for much longer, sadly.

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 09-29-2003, 05:20 PM:

Hi Dick,
yes, its booked with Bill, or should be, I spoke to him a couple of months back regards it.
Not heard from you for ages, hope your well. Ill try bob across sometime to say hello again, maybe pick up Krakatoa at the same time.

Speak soon
Darren

Stephen,
Leo has ansawered most of your questions i think,
Yes we can interlock screen 1 and 2 if we really wanted to, i just never have! Got all the rollers in a box ready to put them up, but we have no call to do it.

As for 3D, i have a friend who has some 'Up and Over' style 3D films, but we dont have a silver screen sheet to even hang for the one off show.
The Vic 8 has 4 track mag heads as Leo said, and we have spare penthouses that we could affix to the Vic 5's too.
If any Film-Tech UK people want to come up for the Sunday shows on the 23rd of Nov, I would certainly welcome them.
The DLP is on a 6 month trial and will more than likely stay, dont fancy lifting the f****r again down the stairs!
Any video source looks better throught the DLP than through our super bright Eiki LCD machine, you can even see the line structure on a Beta SP tape!
The DLP will be used for true HD screenings mainly of lower budget films, (not Finding Nemo.) Films like the new Peter Greenaway film, 'TulseLuper Suitcases PT1 and PT2'.
The aim is to be able to release lower budget art-house films in 7 of our sites in Digital, so it isn't a major risk for the distributors to pay for prints to be struck. If the film takes off, then 35mm prints can be made, knowing the film is doing ok at the box office. Makes good sence. We even have our own digital encoder for the EVS server.

Other uses are for lectures, short films etc.

ScreenTalk works by taking the SRD meta data, which has reel and frame numbers stored in it, and syncronising it to a PC via the Dolby screentalk interface. The pc outputs video data(subtitles) and Audio for decription purposes. Simple!

Darren

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 09-29-2003, 05:51 PM:

Unless costs have come down a lot in recent times, someone is making a heck of an investment, putting digital into seven sites. I think that's more than in the whole of London, until recently.

quote:
Yes we can interlock screen 1 and 2 if we really wanted to, i just never have! Got all the rollers in a box ready to put them up, but we have no call to do it.

I was thinking of interlocking the two machines in screen two, for two strip 3-D, like the recent festival at the Egyptian. There wasn't a suitable screen there either, they put one in for the festival. There are few places that can run that format now, but if it's done right, the results can be very good.

Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 09-30-2003, 02:39 AM:

Darren
Still alive.I think!

What DLP projector are you using in York?

Sounds as though it's time for me to pay a visit

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 09-30-2003, 06:09 AM:

Hi Dick,
The DLP machine is a Christie DCP -I
Digital Cinema Projector with a SLI-D lamhouse with a 3k xenon.
1.3K resolution, but on screens less then 30ft wide there is no beniti form going to 2k, so it looks dam good on a 22ft scope picture.
Hope you can make it over sometime.
bring a big car and Karaktoa! [Smile]

Darren

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-30-2003, 03:40 PM:

quote:
Saturday trips to York, when they have them listed, are slightly more, about £24 I think. You might expect a charter train to be cheaper, but HRT are not a charity, they aim to make a profit, and they have to pay for the stock, locomotive, path, power or fuel, etc. Obviously, this isn't a travel when you like service, but if they can do it at these prices, then a saver return really shouldn't cost more than three times as much.

Agreed entirely. OK, charters are cheaper than scheduled (because, being planned in advanced, they're full to greater capacity), but this just goes to show what a ripoff GNER's 'normal' range of fares are. And as I say, if work dictates that you have to go to London and back in a day for the times that the London-based people expect you to be there, GNER have you over the barrel. Travelling on the busiest trains and without being able to advance-book the fare is as follows: £135 to stand in a corridor for two hours (i.e. what they euphamistically called 'standard class') and £220 for a 50/50 chance of getting a seat (what, with even more irony, they call 'first class'). It's a sick joke, and it's only because York is nowhere near an airport that they can get away with it. If proof of this is needed, just look at the range of 'no frills' airline flights on offer from the other main points on the East Coast main line, i.e. Newcastle and Edinburgh.

Off-topic rant over, promise.. [Wink]

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 09-30-2003, 05:56 PM:

Congratulations Darren...you've reaped the fruits of your labours! It also helps to work for a company that values and promotes great presentation - I've always had great experiences in the Curzon Soho, London, which is a sister site isn't it? I see it's presently closed for refurbishment.

We've 70mm here too in Dublin in the Irish Film Institute (DP70 with six-track mag / DTS), and must ask them if I can put some pix up.

I'm confused as to how some 70mm venues still don't have access to DTS. Surely these types of cinema have the wherewithal to purchase a unit and use it for both 35mm and 70mm?

Alternatively can these be hired for the duration of an engagement? (perhaps you can help, Karen?)

Whilst people would be upset to see mag tracks left off 70mm prints in the future, is it a worthwhile price to pay to get more 70mm back into the theatres, given the expense of striping now? Any comments?

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 10-01-2003, 05:14 AM:

Stephen,
yes we can interlock two machines via the inverters. Just like any interlock. Have tested once in the past with identical head leaders running loops for 4 hours and all mahines in the building ran in perfect sync. The component engineering data bus just starts all machines at the same time, and due to the projectors runing off the same phase mains supply, the inverters run exactly the same.

DTS
As there are only a handfull of DTS70 prints and around 100 70mm mag prints, the money for a DTS unit can be spent on other items like new lenses to improve quality, new Mag heads etc.
All our screens are SRD, and DTS is used as much on the art-house films, and all main stream we get have SRD. If i had money id put SDDS in even though its dieing.

I spoke to someone at DTS at cine expo from DTS uk regards DTS 70 and the possibilty of use getting it, but even after a followup email when back in the UK, i didnt get a reply!!!
Not a good way to do business! So never did get the full list of DTS70 prints, or info on hiring a reader, We are all set to promote DTS70 a big way, even have a DTS70 70mm logo.

Im planning on screening some DTS70 prints next year so will need to get something sorted by then. City screen wouldnt hava problem getting DTS and DTS 70 installed if say Harry Potter 3 was release in DTS70, we would be the first to want it.

Darren

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 10-01-2003, 05:02 PM:

I should clarify that when I referred to "70mm prints in the future" this meant new restorations of past titles. The point being that perhaps if everyone could run DTS it would make these more economical, by foregoing the mag striping and sounding.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-01-2003, 05:22 PM:

Sadly, the cost of doing that relative to the cost of preparing a new o-neg (or, if a significant proportion of the surviving footage is 2nd generation or below, a fine-grain pos) is insignificant given the cost of putting magnetic oxide on a release print. This ain't the issue, it's the cost of restoration in the first place. That cost is determined by the state of the source material and what you want to do with it.

If a printable 65mm interneg exists of a given title then I guess it may be a little bit cheaper to print it onto 70mm release print stock with a DTS timecode minus mag as against striping it. But if the preservation/restoration needs go back to any previous generation, then the costs of working on a film at that level are so big that whether or not the prints are mag or not really doesn't make any difference. For example, Robert Harris states on the Vertigo laserdisc commentary that the restoration costs came in at around the $2 million mark. That's not much in relation to the price of striking release prints, whatever format they are in.

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 10-02-2003, 11:46 AM:

If thre going to restore a film, why not restore it to its original release format, i.e. Mag sound, like 2001 was. More cinemas can play Mag than DTS70. Or do both like has been done with the re-prints of Lawrence in the states. Some Mag, som DTS.

Any 70 new or old would be great, mag or dts, but mag has a sound like no other when recorded well. listen to Hello Dolly, original 1969 prints, truely awesum. OR latest recordings like Far and Away 6 track SR, best sound Ive ever heard.

Darren

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-02-2003, 09:03 PM:

Mag stripping is increasing getting very difficult to get done due to the EPA regulations on some of the solvents (hm I used to love the smell of mag stripe in the morning it smelled of Showmanship [Smile]

)

Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 10-03-2003, 08:51 AM:

Surely and restoration now will be for the long term future, and therefore any format that degrades with time alone (eg mag) would be out ? Have you ever tried playing cassettes you had at school (mmm, would require the revisiting of pubescant music taste, perhaps not !)

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 10-03-2003, 01:25 PM:

Fair Point Peter, but how long will CD'S last? suppose you can get new ones made though. Cant get a new 70mm print re-recorded every 20 years.
Allthough it is amazing how good the originam 1960's prints still sound today.

Darren

Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 10-04-2003, 04:31 AM:

Can't quite take your point about CDs - yes, they may not keep their stuff in 20 years but at least it's a Digital format so a copy (to whatever the format d'jour is in 2023 !) will be transparent to the original. But no, I agree that 70mm is unique - have never seen a CD in Our Price with a sensurround track !

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-05-2003, 05:40 PM:

The jury is very much out on optical disc longevity, because they're so new that really all we have to go on are accelerated aging (e.g. Arrhenius) tests. This is something that gets talked about a lot in archive circles, especially among audio archivists who basically want to know if they can rely on CD-Rs for long-term preservation. The basic concensus seems to be that factory-pressed CDs are probably the most stable of all optical discs, with the caveat that some very early ones used slighly acidic inks in the label which can attack the polyeurathane outer 'sandwich' layer. OF CD-Rs, the photocyanine (light yellowish recording surface) are said to be better than the other sorts, though I must admit that I really couldn't understand the chemistry in the paper I read which made that argument.

quote:
If thre going to restore a film, why not restore it to its original release format, i.e. Mag sound, like 2001 was.

quote:
Surely and restoration now will be for the long term future, and therefore any format that degrades with time alone (eg mag) would be out ?

This gets the crucial issue, which is that most restoration has to do two things: create master elements for long-term preservation, and create new copies for viewing here and now. As far as the here and now goes, I agree with Darren: mag makes the best sense (though I gather that there are serious environmental issues involved with the chemicals used for mag striping which is making it ever more difficult). But for long-term preservation you need something which you know you can pull off the shelf in 50 years' time and make another print from. As far as sound goes the ideal preservation medium, IMHO, would be digital data recorded photographically on polyester black-and-white film, i.e. like a Dolby Digital track but without any compression, at a massively high sampling rate and frequency range, and with a much lower data writing density. At any point in the future this could be played back into a computer which could then transcode it into whatever format was in widespread use at the time and kick out a new optical sound negative, digital cinema server file or whatever; or even to record the mag stripes on a new 70mm print after digital to analogue conversion.