This is topic XXX Sound Levels in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 09-07-2002, 12:41 PM:
Is the mix for XXX especially 'hot'? We had to turn down the level a bit b/c it was just too loud. Also, the DA-20 level indicator was maxed out the most I have seen it during action scenes that I can remember. Could it be the fault of a particular print, our print # was around 300. I dont want any critique of the movie, I know it isnt any good, but it was our best option for a one week filler.------------------
Adam Fraser
www.pinestheatre.com
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-07-2002, 12:50 PM:
Generally, all the prints in a release are made from the same sound negative, and so would have the same levels. On an analog track, variation in the printing or processing could affect the cross-modulation distortion or noise level. On a digital track, a lab problem could affect the error rate, but not the level.------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 09-07-2002, 01:22 PM:
I noticed that it was much louder too. No one has complained, and i like loud stuff, so i haven't done anything about it.
Posted by Wes Hughes (Member # 981) on 09-07-2002, 01:29 PM:
Our print runs very loud also (dolby digital). We had to turn the fader back in that auditorium quite a bit.
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 09-07-2002, 01:33 PM:
Thanks guys, just wanted to make sure the problem wasn't on our side of the fence, were are also running SRD. We also had to notch the fader back about 1 point.------------------
Adam Fraser
www.pinestheatre.com
Posted by Christopher Duvall (Member # 284) on 09-07-2002, 04:15 PM:
The cans we received had a letter in it signed from Rob Cohen (the director) stating the he wants the movie to be run at the Dolby fader setting at 7 and that the film has a very "dynamic" soundtrack. I think it is his way of saying that it is hot. Those that are interested in that movie probably wouldn't mind it being the loud anyway...
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-07-2002, 05:31 PM:
Digital soundtrack levels are not as suspeptable to level errors "st the lab" since digital data is not affected by exposure where as the optical track density will effect it with higher cross mods
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 09-07-2002, 05:31 PM:
We blew a center-channel HF diaphram while running "XXX".
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-07-2002, 06:14 PM:
Movies like this are why afterburners come in handy
Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 09-07-2002, 07:37 PM:
As I mentioned in another post, we got a memo dictating that this feature was to be run at "7" no exceptions. Management followed this dictate regarless of patron pleas to turn it down. (There were several refunds). We too, took out a centre channel high-frequency diaphram.
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 09-07-2002, 07:46 PM:
'the film has a very "dynamic" soundtrack. I think it is his way of saying that it is hot.'More like all over the map. That much range in a mix is asking for the fader to be turned down, possibly resulting in incomprehensible dialouge.
Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 09-07-2002, 08:02 PM:
quote:
As I mentioned in another post, we got a memo dictating that this feature was to be run at "7" no exceptions.
I assume this means that, if this memo came from the distributor, they will happily pay for any blown speakers? 
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 09-07-2002, 08:54 PM:
We were worried about blowing our speakers too and also customers were plugging their ears during the first few minutes of the movie. Better to turn down the level a notch then to blow a speaker that would involve lots of $$$ to repair it. 
------------------
Adam Fraser
www.pinestheatre.com
Posted by Alex Grasic (Member # 1371) on 09-08-2002, 12:04 AM:
Well, after doing a run through of the movie, I decided to turn down to at a max of 6.5. I mean, I like loud movies, but XXX was pushing it!
Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 09-08-2002, 02:59 AM:
we started it at 6.5...wayyy too loud...the snow scene towards the end was clearly heard in the lobby...it's running at 6.0 now.
Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 09-08-2002, 08:37 AM:
Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------
The cans we received had a letter in it signed from Rob Cohen (the director) stating the he wants the movie to be run at the Dolby fader setting at 7 and that the film has a very "dynamic" soundtrack. I think it is his way of saying that it is hot. Those that are interested in that movie probably wouldn't mind it being the loud anyway...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Fast and the Furious (also from Cohen) had a similar note.
Posted by Tim Turner (Member # 1109) on 09-08-2002, 12:06 PM:
During the avalanche scene towards the end of the movie, all of our ampliphiers went out! Everytime.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-08-2002, 12:38 PM:
Tim said"During the avalanche scene towards the end of the movie, all of our ampliphiers went out! Everytime."
What doe you mean went out most of those systems should have enough headroom to handle it and I can't believ every channel would crash
Posted by Tim Turner (Member # 1109) on 09-08-2002, 12:58 PM:
I think it had something to do with the power outlet that the ampliphiers were plugged into that caused them to go out. Because the powerstrips were also going out.
When the amps are under alot of "stress" there are red warning lights like blink, right before they go out also.The only thing we could think of to do, was to change the gain settings for a few of the ampliphiers and lower the volume to about 4.5. The sound quality was crap, but at least there were no interruptions to the show.
This only happened in one theater with xXx, the theater right next to it ws also playing it, but there were no problems.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-08-2002, 01:16 PM:
Adjusting the Gain settings in a THX theatre on the amps is a no no no
The balance of the hi low spectrum is set on those amps since they are fed at 300mv when calibrated
Reduce the fader don't play with something that canot be easily put back
Posted by Gordon Hedges III (Member # 863) on 09-08-2002, 01:17 PM:
We started at the desired levels that Cohen wanted, but backed off after many complaints... AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MOVIE. 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-08-2002, 01:41 PM:
Tim, from the sounds of it you are driving all of your amplifiers off of one power outlet strip, meaning off of only one breaker (probably a 15-20A). Plus there is no telling how many other things are also coming off of that circuit. Now's the time to call in an electrician to give you more circuits!
Posted by Tim Turner (Member # 1109) on 09-08-2002, 01:56 PM:
I didn't want to mess wit hthe gain settings. It wasn't my idea. But it was the only thing that seemed to work. Simply lowering the volume by itself didnt work unless it was about level 4, and that was way too low.
quote:
Tim, from the sounds of it you are driving all of your amplifiers off of one power outlet strip, meaning off of only one breaker (probably a 15-20A). Plus there is no telling how many other things are also coming off of that circuit. Now's the time to call in an electrician to give you more circuits!
You're absolutly right Brad. But this setup has been this way for about 9 years or so. And xXx is the first time there have ever been any problems at least in the 4 years that I've been there.
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-08-2002, 04:31 PM:
This brings up the interesting question as to whether it should be possible to blow out any part of a system running at calibrated level solely because of something on the track--any track, including leader garbage from a print trailing out. Shouldn't a system be bullet proof enough or self limited in some way so that nothing a track can do can destroy it, at least not while at fader = 7.0?
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-08-2002, 04:33 PM:
quote:
" Shouldn't a system be bullet proof enough or self limited in some way so that nothing a track can do can destroy it, at least not while at fader = 7.0?"
ABSOLUTELY! Unfortunately you can build a system that is plenty overkill to prevent such a thing from happening, but if you put a sloppy EQ into the processor, you can still blow drivers.
Case in point, I have worked at the Galaxy for around 4-5 years. The #5 house there was the auditorium to see a movie in around these parts. (80 foot screen and a top notch THX sound system, plus of course my film presentation. 
) For a solid 3+ years we would commonly run films over "7" when it was appropriate. Not all movies played well at or over "7" though. I remember playing "The Mummy" at 5.5 in there. Other movies like "The Matrix" we ran between 8-9, depending on the crowd. Not once did we blow a driver...until about a year ago a tech came in and decided to retune the system using his ears (conveniently listening through the port window) and a Radio Shack SPL meter. That first show of the day with the fader set at "5", the center diaphragm blew. No joke, no exaggerations. It also sounded like shit and we immediately started getting customer complaints. Fortunately I had the EQ settings saved on my laptop and put them back and the theater has not blown another driver since, and that is with Episode II running between 7.5-9, depending on crowds.
As a comparision, trailers play at 4, and still do to this day in that room. By the way, I resigned from there a couple of weeks ago, as I don't have the time to devote to it any more. Josh and Paul got the last tour.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-08-2002, 04:47 PM:
Yes it is possible but then someone will add a digital player to a system designed for A type or SR and bang
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-08-2002, 06:42 PM:
heheh What's wrong with the R-S SPL meter? Dolby seems to recommend it (photographically).
Posted by Jim Leko (Member # 1287) on 09-10-2002, 11:56 AM:
I think we played it at 5.5
Even this was LOUD. During the avalanch(sp?) scene, the empty reels on the walls would rattle. I have never heard a movie that loud. 7.0 would have blown speakers for sure.
Posted by Peter Schoell (Member # 919) on 09-10-2002, 08:59 PM:
TES called me the day XXX was to open to tell me to be sure all my faders would be at 7. I said "sure, sure, I'll be happy to." Of course assoon as the movie started, down those faders went. xxx is the first film I can remember where the movie was louder than the trailers. I have afterburners, and they got a workout even with the faders down.
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 09-10-2002, 09:05 PM:
quote:
I didn't want to mess wit hthe gain settings. It wasn't my idea. But it was the only thing that seemed to work. Simply lowering the volume by itself didnt work unless it was about level 4, and that was way too low.
Tim, if you have to live with all the amps running off of one circuit breaker I would suggest that next time you have amps shutting off due to power starvation that you turn down the fader to a level suitable for the front channels then if you must shut off surround amps in left&right pairs (if bi-amped shut off hi&low for each left&right pair). Still not a proper solution but far better than adjusting input gains on a calibrated system.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-13-2002, 02:19 AM:
You know, with all due respect to the directors, this business of "my movie right or wrong" just doesn't play with me. OK he wants it loud but when my patrons are coming out of the theatre with their ears bleeding, or my speakers are being damaged, then he's treading on my turf. My concern is for my patrons, not for his ego. I am not going to cause discomfort to a majority of patrons because this guy is a sadist. Besides, volume comfort is perceptive and not absolute....that's why they put faders on cinema processors! Maybe the week that he was sitting in his dubbing studio mixing his picture, his ears were filled with earwax. My audience shouldn't have to suffer because of some director's bad body hygiene.There was the same kind of note in the film cans of HAIR; there the music was MUCH louder than dialogue. Luckily for us, we had a compander in the system and we set to gently raise the quiet dialogue and keeping the music at a good full level but not ear splitting. But here again, I wasn't about to drive away my audience or break houselight filiments just to satify some distributor's memo.
Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 09-13-2002, 11:14 AM:
quote:
You know, with all due respect to the directors, this business of "my movie or wrong" just doesn't play with me. OK he wants it loud but when my patrons are coming out of the theatre with their ears bleeding, or my speakers are being damaged, then he's treading on my turf. My concern is for my patrons, not for his ego.
Totally agree. I don't know when directors (and music mixers) lost the connection that it's dynamic range that causes impact, not overall sound level, which causes tedium.
(But I must admit that trailer levels have gotten better lately.)
And there is also the issue of hearing damage. Sound levels (especially in live music clubs) have gotten completely out of hand. OSHA Maximum exposure time at 90DB SPL (A-weighted) is 2hours, 31 minutes.
At 95DB this drops to 47 minutes
At 100DB, this drops to 15 minutes.
At 105DB, this drops to just under 5 minutes.
At 110DB, this drops to 1.5 minutes
At 120DB, this drops to 9 seconds.
Posted by William Leland III (Member # 1400) on 09-13-2002, 06:03 PM:
it seems to me there is alot of talk about the sound level in XXX. in our theater we had to cut the sound down to 5.0, 7.0 was the recomended sound setting. (we still had complaints at 5.0)
my questin is why do film studios send us memo's telling projectionist to play these movies at such high volumes? we all know that 7.0 is way to loud. we never could run a movie in 7.0. the customers ears would bleed. does anyone run at 7.0?
Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 09-13-2002, 09:27 PM:
We are running XXX in DTS ... and it is WAAAAAYYYY too loud at the normal fader setting. It seems to me also, that the dialog is a little bit too far 'under' the mix.
Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 09-14-2002, 09:57 AM:
We have had tweeters blown on three way systems in five locations on not wimpy, well powered systems. I have not seen the movie but a friend who is a film sound recording mixer has noted that the loud scenes appear to what quite a bit of high frequency information.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 09-14-2002, 02:26 PM:
We need that loudness meter from Dolby/Ioan and run it in "XXX".
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 09-14-2002, 05:47 PM:
With dialogue that is so low, it might make up for the loud sequences and pass the loudness meter test. 
Posted by Carl King (Member # 398) on 09-15-2002, 11:02 AM:
XXX was way too loud if played ar regular fader settings.The director of a film may include a note telling the projectionist to play his movie at a certain level and I do take that into consideration BUT it is my booth and my audience and I and only I make the decision as to volume levels. After 34 yrs in the booth I feel emminently qualified to say wether a volume level is excessive.
I determine this by standing in the rear of the auditorium and listening to the track. If ordinary conversations are comfortably audible from the rear (even soft conversation)then I'm OK. My first concern is my patrons enjoyment. That's what keeps them coming back NOT the sound engineers ability to make noise. Any moron can record something loud. The skill is in recording it correctly.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-15-2002, 11:36 AM:
The big problem often is if one sets the dialogue to a comfortable level some of these moronic recordists will then have far too loud of effects
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-19-2002, 01:19 AM:
John Walsh wrote:
quote:
We blew a center-channel HF diaphram while running "XXX".
Same thing happened to us last night. Brand new Dolby Digital CP-650 system.
Richard Folwer wrote:
quote:
We have had tweeters blown on three way systems in five locations on not wimpy, well powered systems. I have not seen the movie but a friend who is a film sound recording mixer has noted that the loud scenes appear to what quite a bit of high frequency information.
Mine was a JBL 2446H (HF section of a 4675-8LF loudspeaker system) driven by a QSC 1400. This is a bi-amped system with Smart crossovers. The Dolby CP-650 unit EQ'ed itself. The signal came in through an Ivie RTA.
"xXx" was only the second movie to run in this house. The CP-650 is now running in bypass mode in that house. We are running it in Dolby analog at another location and, if you ask me, this movie plays more comfortably in the analog room. It's loud and clear, but not deafening.
Oh yeah...who's gonna pay for all these speakers? 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-19-2002, 03:53 AM:
quote:
"Oh yeah...who's gonna pay for all these speakers?"
You are.
Let's not start another uproar like what happened that resulted in the original Dolby Digital Train mix and the original THX Cimarron mix removed from circulation. If your system was built and calibrated well enough to withstand running a movie like xXx and your speaker blew, then odds are your projectionist wasn't paying attention to a proper fader setting. If the movie was not being ran overly loud, and your system was built well enough, you can probably blame the damage on the automatic EQing you let the CP650 do, or on whichever tech went overboard in over-EQing the system manually. If the EQ job was fine as well as the fader setting, then the system was not designed properly. In the end, it's your problem not the studios.
Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 09-19-2002, 03:57 AM:
manny,I agree with Brad. I'm following this thread from the beginning and I cannot realize how someone can project a movie so loud to blow up an HF diaphram! I can understand a Subwoofer or a LF unit or a surround woofer... But if your system is well calibrated and designed the audience will become crazy before blowing up the HF diaphram!
Bye
Antonio
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-19-2002, 06:49 AM:
I just love it how I'm automatically the freakin' moron.Ya know....they do a LOT of drugs out there in California...
A whole LOT of drugs....
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-19-2002, 09:06 AM:
Surely anything at speaker blowing level would be prompting audience complaints?I was at a theatre last week who have had a dictat from high command, all faders to be on 7 for EVERYTHING! no expections. Surprisingly enough they're business has taken something of a nosedive since this policy was enforced.
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-19-2002, 10:09 AM:
Is it possible that there could be an inappropriate signal in the centre channel of the digital track?I wouldn't put anything past those Hollywood mixers who are all losing their hearing because they've been mixing so loud for so long. I can just see the director saying "I want this scene to rip the sound system to shreds!!!"
I'm still reeling from the notion that I'm damned if I do the EQ and I'm damned if the processor does it for me. I guess I might as well forego EQ'ing altogether if those are my options.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-19-2002, 02:43 PM:
Manny, you are not automatically a moron just because you had a diaphragm blow on you. However a poor EQ can blow speakers without being played very loud. Within the last couple of weeks I posted a story about what happened last year in exactly this same senario. Bottom line, the theater ran for several years with no problems. One day a tech came in and redid the EQ. First show of the day the diaphragms blew. The volume was not loud enough to elicit complaints. When you are EQing, just don't go nuts with trying to make that line on your RTA perfect. If nothing else, EQ as flat as you can, then look at your controls and smooth out those areas where you have one frequency raised, then the next one lowered, then the next one raised and so forth. That is over-EQing and can blow your drivers (as well as produce sound that is less than pleasing).Your problem could be your speaker system is not up to the job given the size of your room. Heck, perhaps your amplifiers are constantly clipping because they are not powerful enough. No two rooms are the same, so you'll just have to get in there and determine what the cause was. In the end though, you should be able to play that system at far louder levels than any audience would tolerate and not damage anything.
Posted by Brian Tristam Williams (Member # 1235) on 09-22-2002, 08:04 PM:
Strange thing happened to us on the way to the end of the film...Yes, that's right - we also blew a centre channel HF driver. I agree:
Who's gonna pay for the damn speakers
------------------
"One man can make a difference."