Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: No more holes every 5 perfs?

This is topic No more holes every 5 perfs? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 09-07-2002, 05:46 PM:

Ran some DTS 70mm .... no holes. Did they stop putting them on because they felt the the DTS track "tells" you which end is heads/tails? It was on Vision Premiere stock.

I thought it was handy to have them for splicing reasons.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-07-2002, 07:01 PM:

The tiny round marker hole every 5th perforation was discontinued a few years ago. It was found to be a potential source of raw stock dirt, as the punch and die used to make it was so small and hard to hold a sharp cutting edge. 70mm labs and major 70mm customers were consulted in making this decision.

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-07-2002, 08:42 PM:

It was a great idea since even the best equipped booths are not likely to have a 70mm synchronizer or 1-gang "film measuring machine." Would have been great on 35mm too. Of course the labs stopped threading up in frame long ago but looking for the offset worked fine.

Just as sacred but a bit less holy

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-08-2002, 12:33 AM:

Hmmm so Kodak's 70mm stock is not in compliance with SMPTE guidelines?...for shame.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-08-2002, 06:45 AM:

Steve: Does anyone else still punch the hole? Or even still supply 70mm print film as a catalog item?

SMPTE 119 says the hole was "used for positioning audio records on release prints" for magnetic sound. You can SEE a DTS track, and you can SEE the picture, so the holes are not the only guide to threading a projector correctly.

Labs still have the option of edgeprinting the EASTMAN 65mm KEYKODE numbers from the printing negative, which has latent image marks every 5 perfs:
EASTMAN 65mm KEYKODE

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-08-2002, 11:31 AM:

One would think the silver recovery from the chad would offset the costs of punching the holes.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-08-2002, 11:36 AM:

It was not done to save money, it was done to improve quality (less raw stock dirt).

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-08-2002, 12:36 PM:

No the reel reason is kodak donated the punches to the voting machines in florida to deal with there chads

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-08-2002, 02:39 PM:

I dunno if anyone else does comply with the standard or not. The Frame line identifier (the little round hole) was a multi-use item. It was on the inboard side and on the frame line.

The fact is, not having the hole puts the stock out of SMPTE compliance.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-08-2002, 04:42 PM:

I just searched through a lot of samples to find a single one that was printed in alignment and that was probably just a lucky 1 chance in 5 accident. Even the SMPTE RP91 (70PA) was not in register. SMPTE not in compliance with SMPTE? Egads!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-08-2002, 05:46 PM:

Sad to say Steve...that would be predictable (SMPTE not in compliance with SMPTE).

As to films actually correct with the frame-line identifier...it really depended on the lab. Deluxe in the states was horrible...they bi-directionally printed so at least half of the reels had the hole on the wrong side.

Technicolor-London seemed VERY good about adhearing to it. I think the last film of their's I played was THE LAST EMPEROR and it, on all of its many reels, adheared to the identifier to the inoboard side and right on the frame line.

If you have any of the old 70-APAL film, it was always correct too.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-08-2002, 06:47 PM:

Is the 70mm test film an optical printer original or a print?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-08-2002, 08:56 PM:

70-PA (aka RP-91) is a dupe...sad to say. It is quite apparent when looking at the resolution targets.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"