Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Vinegar syndrome in release prints

This is topic Vinegar syndrome in release prints in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 09-13-2002, 09:45 AM:

How common is this? I made up a print of Friday the 13th last night and when I opened the can, the stench nearly knocked me on my ass! one reel was severly warped, it just wouldnt lay flat. The stock is Fuji, and the color is ok, prolly better than Eastmen of this vintage would be.

But my question is, how are conditions used to store prints like this? I've got stuff from the 50's that hasn't turned yet, and this film is what, 20 years old? The storage conditions must be, to say the least, less than ideal.

Josh

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"Film is made of silver, video is made of rust"
'nuf said

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-13-2002, 09:56 AM:

Here's information about "vinegar syndrome":
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/technical/vinegar.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/molecular.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/technical/storage2.shtml
Vinegar Syndrome article[/UR L]
[URL=http://www.capital.net/com/jaytp/VINEGAR.HTM]http://www.capital.net/com/jaytp/VINEGAR.HTM
http://www.nb.no/fiat/Bogensee/2-173gaustad.html
http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub54/2what_wrong.html
http://www.film-center.com/gb4.html
http://www.newport-news.va.us/wwdept/infosite/lifeexpectARMA.PPT

Many release prints are stored in unconditioned warehouses, where the poor conditions of high temperature, high humidity, and sealed containers (film cases) can accelerate the onset of "vinegar syndrome" in triacetate base films.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 09-13-2002, 10:07 AM:

A few years ago I got a print from TES of a Miramax film. I opened
the can and got the same problem. What happened was that TES had
treated the print. Since some studios make a few prints on some titles
they treat them. So they can reuse them later. Over at Paramount
some of the studio IB prints have vinegar syndrome.

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 09-13-2002, 11:01 AM:

I think we've previously discussed the problems inherent in film "treatments" and while I have never personally had problems with Photoguarded prints, certainly rejeuvination or scratch removal processes are another issue with heat and caustic/acidic chemicals likely to accellerate or even cause the onset of VS. Surprisingly, though, although I've only had a few prints turn, almost all of them have been older dye transfer IB Tech prints. It does make me wonder whether some aspect of the dye transfer process is responsible, or whether it's just the advanced age of these prints. Anybody have any thoughts?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-13-2002, 11:10 AM:

It has been hypothesized that the gelatin emulsions in processed Kodak incorporated coupler color films tend to act as a "buffer", absorbing and neutralizing the initial release of acid vapors, thereby slowing the progress of the hydrolysis reaction that causes "vinegar syndrome".

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-14-2002, 05:03 PM:

Why don't they just make a few extra copies and store those brand-new copies properly?

It seems to me that would be a simpler solution than going through used prints and (hopefully) trying to find a few that are in good condition.

Could a prestigious organization (say, a theatre or university) request -- and actually get) a "new print" struck from the negative as opposed to a used copy?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-15-2002, 02:30 AM:

There is a place near Hutchinson, Kansas that is a converted salt mine that stores lots of environmental-sensitive product (including o-neg film prints). I think this place needs to get a lot more business for keeping movies intact. The humidity and temperature level is at a fixed constant that never wavers. I guess if the movie studios were willing to pay the storage fee, you would not get vinegar syndrome from a print stored there.

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 09-15-2002, 02:30 AM:

I heard back once a theater actually paid to have a new print struck.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-15-2002, 06:55 AM:

Bobby wrote: "There is a place near Hutchinson, Kansas that is a converted salt mine that stores lots of environmental-sensitive product (including o-neg film prints)."

Probably Underground Vaults and Storage:
http://www.uvsinc.com/index.html

Although many studios have long had excellent programs of preservation (e.g., Disney, MGM), almost all the major studio now see the value of proper storage, preservation, and restoration of their valuable assets:
http://www.hollywoodvaults.com/resources.html
http://www.cinesite.com/la/presrest/index.html
http://www.cinesite.com/la/presrest/protek.html
http://www.ironmountain.com/

Not-for-profit and governmental archives have the daunting task of trying to preserve "orphan" films, or films that don't have enough of a commercial market to pay for preservation/restoration services.
http://www.amianet.org/
http://www.afi.com/
http://www.eastman.org/
http://www.cinema.ucla.edu/
http://lcweb.loc.gov/film/

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-15-2002, 09:12 AM:

IIRC, the "converted salt mine' was where the negs of STAR WARS were kept. Unfortunately, they were not stored properly (improper packaging) and this is how the digitized "Special Edition" was born.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-15-2002, 05:00 PM:

...and the fact that most of the opticals for the original SW were on unstable CRI stock (probably the fastest-fading stock in history) didn't help matters, either.