This is topic Amplifiers, Clipping and Damaged Drivers in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-25-2002, 10:37 PM:
 
Could somebody please explain...

(a) What exactly is clipping?
(b) What causes it?
(c) Just how does it harm loudspeaker drivers?
 


Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 09-25-2002, 10:56 PM:
 
Clipping is when the input to an amp is greater than the amp can handle. Say an amp amplifies a signal 10 times (ie; say a 1 volt input will become an 10 volt output.) If you put in 1.1 volt, the output can't be any greater than 10. What happens is the output signal begins to look more like a DC signal, which speakers can't handle. The voice coil burns out.

This is one of those things that's a little easier to show on a scope then explain with words.
 


Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 09-25-2002, 11:08 PM:
 
When the peaks of a sine wave start to flatten out, that's clipping. That's what it would look like on a scope.
 
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 09-25-2002, 11:23 PM:
 
(b) What causes it?

Improper adjustment of gains (pre-amp circuit) can cause the input to the actual amplification circuit to be greater than its limits.


 


Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-26-2002, 07:27 AM:
 
Some links:
http://www.rane.com/pdf/note128.pdf
http://users.chariot.net.au/~gmarts/ampovdrv.htm
http://www.epanorama.net/links/audiocircuits.html

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
 


Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-26-2002, 07:33 AM:
 
Basically it is the peaks of the wave forms being cut off and turned into a flat line
Speakers don't really like having the diaphram held in one position which this does
It is caused by overdriving the amplifier

 
Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 09-26-2002, 05:52 PM:
 
Highly clipped audio is also rich in high frequency harmonic energy. This won't do your high frequency drivers any good.
 
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-27-2002, 08:29 AM:
 
Thanks for the explanations. You've made this very easy to understand. I have one more for you...

(d) What causes "blown" amplifiers?


 


Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 09-27-2002, 07:41 PM:
 
Does this mean that speakers should not be driven by square waves, since they are flat-topped by nature? A heavily misaligned Buzz Track comes to mind....
 
Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 09-27-2002, 10:00 PM:
 
It means that speakers shouldn't be driven past their rated power, square waves or not. The tone produced by a clarinet is almost a square wave, but a Benny Goodman recording wouldn't blow your speakers unless you turned up the amplifier too far. The point is that a square wave contains the maximum amount of power that a waveform can possible deliver. A square wave with a high duty cycle (it's ON more than it's OFF) will deliver a lot of DC to the speaker voice coils. Clipping is caused simply because the amplifier's power supply reaches the point where it simply can't produce any more power, so it delivers as much as it can. This "flattens" the top of waveforms. If the amp has enough power, it means that you're running it at a level that's almost guaranteed to blow a speaker. Take a 100 watt power amp, send a square wave through it turned all the way up and you're literally shoving enough juice through your speaker to light a 60 watt light bulb....not good for the voice coil.
 
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 09-28-2002, 01:59 AM:
 
"What causes "blown" amplifiers?"

Well, "blown" is not really a techinal term it can mean anything from distorted output - to no output. Generally, only three things can happen in an electronic curcuit:

A component "shorts" - an unintended, low resistance (example: a cap shorts, directly connecting the signal on the two sides together);

A component "opens" - a disconnection of a conductor (example: a winding (wire) in a transformer heats up an melts, breaking the circuit);

Or the component changes it's operating parameters (example: the actual PN junction inside a transistor is forced to pass too much current; not enough to short or open it, but enough change the way it works .... as if you tightened the lug nut on a car tire enough to crack/distort the stud but not enough for it to break off.)

The job is to find which of these things happened to your broken piece of equipment.
 


Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-28-2002, 11:15 AM:
 
Thanks, John.
Thanks, John.

~Manny.

"And you...Deja Vu...I'll always remember you!"
Hillary in Top Secret


 


Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-01-2002, 02:13 PM:
 
Manny, I waited on this one until I was load testing an amplifier. I took some pictures of the oscilloscope screen.

(a) What exactly is clipping? Basically, it is like trying to stuff 10 lbs of manure in a 5-lb bag. You have to clip some manure off to make it fit. The BOTTOM picture of the two shows what a clipped sine wave looks like, and the TOP shows what it a clean sine wave is supposed to look like..

(b) What causes it? Over-driving the amplifier's circuitry, or a malfunction within the circuitry.

(c) Just how does it harm loudspeaker drivers? Inductive loads have AC resistance called "Reactance." Inductive reactance is the product of 2 pi times the frequency times inductance. The clipped portion represents no change in magnetic fields. The inductive reactance then turns into a non-inductive load (resistive) which could cause the voice coils to burn out if the DC component is strong enough or applied long enough.

If you apply a high enough DC to an inductive device, it'll toast it.
In addition to the information others posted, I hope this helps.

Jeff said:

quote:
"Highly clipped audio is also rich in high frequency harmonic energy. This won't do your high frequency drivers any good."

Indeed, it is.

A pure square wave is comprised of the fundamental frequency and an infinate number of odd harmonics. The more odd harmonics, the squarer it will be.

A sawtooth waveform is comprised of the fundamental frequency and an infinate number of even harmonics. The more even harmonics, the more linear rise the sawtooth's ramp will be.

Hey, guys...I am going on what my memory says from about 44 years ago...so please feel free to correct me if I am in error. I cannot recall what a fundamental frequency containing an infinate order of odd and even harmonics look like. Anyone know? A back-to-back sawtooth? I don't remember....


 


Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-02-2002, 05:24 PM:
 
This is a complicated subject, I hope I will manage to explain what I want to say in English...

The pictures taken by Paul show nicely that a clipped signal has the same amplitude as the unclipped, but since it covers a bigger area, it also contains more energy and is therefore perceived as being louder. In addition to this, the square waveform elements contain odd harmonics and the signal is distorted.
It has to be understood that analogue components do not simply go into hard clipping from a certain point onwards, but that the signal gets more and more distorted as this point is approached. Equipment driven at the very edge of its performing abilities delivers distorted sound which is subjectively heard as louder than the undistorted.
A lot of the endless discussion about playback levels in cinemas is caused by equipment which is too weak and delivers distorted noisy sound which appears to bee too loud even when the SPL meter says the level is OK.
In digital equipment, all clipping is hard clipping, because when the maximum amplitude value is reached (all bits=1), there is no further headroom. Often, digital processors do not get properly aligned because people set the gain factor at the amplifiers to reach the specified sound pressure level with pink noise. If you then equalise by raising more than lowering individual frequency bands, the processor output is doomed to go into hard clipping when you there are signals approaching full scale, because the digital channel sum is above 0dB. To avoid this, you need amplifiers which can give you more gain so that you can lower more frequency bands in the digital equliser. And of course, the amplifier needs enough power reserve to handle full scale signals which are 20dB above reference level without clipping or even approaching clipping.
Most sound systems I know do not meet those requirements and as a consequence deliver noisy sound which is "too loud". If you ever have the opportunity to hear a system with enough power reserves and proper alignment in the digital and analogue areas, you will be very surprised by how "not too loud" movies played back at reference level are.
Another commonly neglected factor is the effectiveness or sensitivity of the loudspeaker, that means how much electrical power you need to reach a given sound pressure level. But that`s another subject...
Michael


 


Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 10-03-2002, 07:03 PM:
 
quote:
Hey, guys...I am going on what my memory says from about 44 years ago...so please feel free to correct me if I am in error.

Paul, you pretty much stated what I've been learning this past year. AFAIK, you are right on the money. Good memory.
 


Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-03-2002, 10:10 PM:
 
Thanks, Ken.

I still have not found the correct name for the complex wave that contains an infinate number of odd and even harmonics. I asked an FCC certified field engineer that is old enough to have gone to school with Marconi, and he said the best way he could explain it is this:

You will have one mell of a hess displayed on the oscilloscope..

So I guess it is not a back-to-back sawtooth...Oh, well....


 


Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-03-2002, 10:53 PM:
 
A waweform which contains even and odd harmonics is a sawtooth. The level of each harmonic in the spectrum is 1/n where n is the ordinal (if that is the correct English term) of the harmonic.
If there are only odd harmonics, it is a square wave if the harmonics level falls by 1/n and a triangular wave if the level falls by 1/n2.
Of course I had to look that up myself!
Michael
 
Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 10-25-2002, 10:37 AM:
 
For those who have not seen a damaged HF diaphragm before, this one has seen one too many rocket launches ...


 


Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-25-2002, 03:07 PM:
 
For those who have not found out the hard way:

When the driver diaphragm is changed, use a non-magnetic screwdriver. If not, that powerful magnet will displace the position of the screwdriver tip - and will punch a hole in your brand new one. Been there.....

In fact, I think you will see a caution statement on the flyer that comes with the diaphragm kit.
 


Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-25-2002, 07:13 PM:
 
I too found out the hard way. There are also other dangers in repairing drivers. One time, we were replacing the HF driver of a JBL system which was of course attached to the horn and a colleague of mine was loosening the screws of the driver which towered above him (it was a system with twin cabinets on top of each other). I warned him that the driver was mostly solid metal and therefore much heavier (16kg) than it looked. He just had enough time to say "yaya, of course I know" when the driver came loose and hit him full in the face which was considerably flatter afterwards...


 


Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-25-2002, 07:21 PM:
 
The information in the RANE note (see John P.'s link on the first page is rather interesting.

In fact, all of the "Rane Notes" are interesting and quite informative. If you haven't read them, you should!

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 


Posted by David Graham Rose (Member # 1450) on 10-29-2002, 01:57 PM:
 
While we are on the subject of waveforms, something has been puzzling me. Buzz Track has the trace of two square waves just outside the optical track area. Surely it is impossible for a sound camera to reproduce a perfectly square wave, since the unexposed film is travelling at a linear speed and the strings in the light valves will not move 'instantly' from 0 displacement to the necessary modulation. In my opinion, the only way to reproduce a true square wave, is by means of some highly accurate art work being photographed. Any other thoughts on the matter?
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-29-2002, 03:36 PM:
 
AFAIK, the buzz track original is from an "art work" master, then precision contact printed to make the film sold. I don't think it was made on a conventional sound (galvo) recorder. Steve Guttag or someone on the SMPTE A12 Committee may know more of the details. Today, a laser film recorder or pulsed LED array could be used, if modified to allow exposure in that area of the film.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: here


 


Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 10-29-2002, 08:06 PM:
 
The most recent Buzz Track says it was photographed in a pin-registered camera. Is this a new method? I also recall the older "artwork" looking different.
 
Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 10-30-2002, 08:38 AM:
 
I have to disagree with Michael on this point:

"It has to be understood that analogue components do not simply go into hard clipping from a certain point onwards, but that the signal gets more and more distorted as this point is approached".

This really depends on the design of the analog equipment. If you are talking about a CP200 (which was designed back in the late 1970's), yes this is true, but modern analogue equipment is quite different.

For instance, the THD of a current QSC amplifier (or a Panastereo sound processor) falls until the point of clipping is REACHED, rather than APPROACHED. The problem with older equipment, relates to the method of gain control, rather than the absolute level of the input signal.

Modern, high performance analog equipment will produce reducing distortion until the actual level of clipping is reached, and thence forth, (like digital) will severely clip.


------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


 


Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-30-2002, 11:40 AM:
 
Thank you Ray! I am glad somebody finally responded to my post. I thought that nobody had read it because it is too long or maybe too cumbersomely worded to read. It is not so easy to explain complex subjects in a foreign language, and I thought that it may not have come across what I meant. The subject is rather important to me, because I found that a lot of the problems you have with cinema sound systems come from bad installation and alignment, and from equipment driven at the very edge of its capacity.
What does THD stand for?
I agree that good modern equipment displays the characteristics you described, but I think there is a lot of less than high-end equipment in the field!
Perhaps you could elaborate a little on what you mean by the method of gain control? In my post I wrote about the mistakes that are sometimes made in equalising systems and which result in problems in the gain structure of digital processors. It would be nice to have some critical feedback on those thoughts.
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-30-2002, 07:20 PM:
 
THD is total harmonic distortion
 
Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 10-30-2002, 08:32 PM:
 
Actually, to follow my own advice and be more accurate, I should say the level of THD+N falls until the point of clipping is reached. Harmonic distortion is what happens when a signal is clipped. The name comes from the fact that unwanted harmonics are added to the signal as a result the squaring of the waveform. When we measure harmonic distortion using conventional means, we often cannot differentiate between low level THD and noise, because the level of the harmonics can be below, or buried in, the noise floor. So we quote THD+N, meaning the total harmonic distortion plus noise.

Once again to be more accurate, in modern analog equipment distortion stays pretty much constant up to the point of clipping, it is the noise level which falls compared with the signal level, so it is the combined THD+N figure that falls as the signal level rises.

My reference to gain control methods is aimed at the once common use of VCA's (voltage controlled amplifiers) which have the characterisic of increasing distortion as the signal level rises. I hate those things!

Now, regarding equaliser settings, I would agree wholeheartedly that a poorly setup system will increase the risk of distortion. However I would have considered the same problem to exist for analog equipment. So Michael I don't quite understand what you are getting at.

BTW Michael your English is very good. If a dummy like me can understand you, then you are doing very well indeed.


------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935


 


Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-31-2002, 02:35 PM:
 
I don`t quite recall myself what I was getting at... Seriously, I didn`t mean to make a general comparison between analogue and digital equipment. The reason I kept referring to digital processors is simply that most units in use in the cinema today are digital processors.
The point I was trying to make is, in answer to Manny`s original question, yes, clipping is not nice and can damage equipment. That much had already been said in the earlier posts. I wanted to elaborate on the fact that clipping is not just a technical problem, but that it also sounds bad and that a lot of the systems in action today operate at the very edge of their capabilities when playing digital tracks and that they are also very often underdimensioned (if such a word exists in English). And most importantly, that the general impression that movies are too loud is caused by too weak equipment and bad alignment which result in heavily distorted sound. And that distorted sound is perceived as much louder as undistorted sound at the same playback level.
 
Posted by David Baum (Member # 568) on 11-01-2002, 03:51 AM:
 
hi
Very interesting topic. Clipping, overdriving etc is a good reason to speak about power requirements imho.
If I may, I would like to refer to what JBLPRO recommends as far as what power is required to feed speakers, depending on the use.
For instance, they say in their technical note called "SPEAKER POWER REQUIREMENT", quote:
- for carefully monitored applications where peak transient capability must be maintained, a system should be powered with an amplifier capable of delivering twice its IEC rating."
example: studio recording/production: 3db margin (because 2x IEC) is not dangerous since peak signals are generally very short in duration during recording/production and carefully controled.
-for routine application where high continuous but non distorted, output is likely to be encountered: IEC rating.
This is the bulk of sound reinforcement activities. Overdriving can occur often or go into feedback but the IEC rating (= use a 250w power amp for a speaker that has an IEC of 250watts), the "user is guaranteed of safe operation".
-for musical instrument applications, where distorted (overdriven) output may be a musical requirement, the system should be powered with an amplifier capable of 1/2 the IEC of the speaker.
in pratice, a 300w driven into clipping will produce 600watts. assuming the speaker IEC is 300watts, a 150watts amp into clipping will yield 300w, thus within the IEC rating of the speaeker.

QUESTION: where cinema applications fit here ? category one , as in studio recording ?

JBL itself if some of its cinema appl papers recommends amps with twice the IEC rating, for instance on the 5000 serie. For the subwoofers, they recommended 1xIEC and multiply the subwoofers to increase SPL pressure rather (doubling the nr of stacked subs yields about 4-6dB).
also, the volume of the room is a direct influence on the power required and the number of speakers of course (especially subwoofers for instance). And power compression intervenes at some time also.
I often read here that it's better to increase the number of subwoofers to reach those 105 or 115db SPL at 2/3 the distance rather than increasing the power feeding them.
Also, equalizing which sometimes requires a boost at certain frequencies creates needs for more amp headroom and thus bigger amp or more use of bridging.
David


 


Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 11-01-2002, 03:53 AM:
 
Brad Miller has on other occassions also made the very valid point that badly equalised systems can also sound too loud, not necessarily because they are distorting but because some frequency bands have too much boost and others too little.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935
 


Posted by Bob Lee (Member # 394) on 11-06-2002, 02:24 PM:
 
Hi all,

It's not the shape of a waveform that blows speakers when an amp clips. And the ouptut doesn't become DC, either. It's the excessive power that does it. When amp clips severely, the average power in the signal is much, much higher than if the signal were reduced to the point where it's clean. An amp could actually put out more power than its rating.

For an extreme example, let's say an amp driving an 8-ohm load puts out a sine wave that just starts to clip when the waveform peaks reach 60 volts. Its RMS voltage is 42.4 volts, and the power delivered to the load is 225 watts. A 60-volt square wave, OTOH, which would resemble a very severely clipped version of the sine wave, would deliver twice as much power--450 watts--into that same load.

While it's also true that clipping produces a lot of harmonic energy, that additional harmonic power in itself does not greatly endanger HF drivers in systems with passive crossovers. That's because even in a square wave, the fundamental is about 88% of the total power. Thus, if the amp is putting out a 60-volt square wave into an 8-ohm load (450 watts), the fundamental is about 400 watts and the rest of the power is in the 3rd, 5th, 7th, and higher-order odd harmonics.

-Bob Lee
Applications Engineer
QSC Audio Products, Inc.


 






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