Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Acceptable videotaping inside a theater?

This is topic Acceptable videotaping inside a theater? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004043

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-29-2002, 04:07 AM:

Here's an interesting scenario that I am interested in opinions on.

We all unanimously agree that having a videocamera in an auditorium is a definite no no and should be stopped immediately any time one turns up. However, what about the specific example of the Rocky Horror Picture Show?

Before anyone answers, I am specifically referring to a Rocky show that has a stage cast. In other words, is it ok to allow someone to take a videocamera inside the theater for the purpose of taping the cast? (This can be for whatever reason...personal use, possible cast rehearsal use, etc.) Bear in mind that some of the picture WILL end up on the tape and of course the audio will as well. Of course this movie has been out on video for years and if someone was actually interested in bootlegging the movie it would be MUCH easier to just dupe a tape from the video store. As you can see, this seems to fall in a grey area.

At what point is it ok and at what point does it become copyright infringement and as such an illegal act?

Anyone have an official link from the MPAA in this regard?

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-29-2002, 04:58 AM:

If I were operating the actual theatre in question, I would actually call the studio and get their approval to allow the camera into the auditorium.

Better yet...let a representative from the cast contact the studio and get something in writing to present when they come with the camera.

The potential problem is that they may intend to market their "version" of RHPS underground and it would be best if you had all of your legal blocks in a nice, neat stack in the (unlikely) event that a lawsuit should arise.

~Manny (when you least expect it.)

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 09-29-2002, 04:59 AM:

It is illegal to videotape a live stage production, just as much so to do with a running film.

With a stage presentation, in most instances, you are working with copyrighted screenplays, and to any lesser extent, the intellectual property of the performers, such as the case with improv, stand up, and other type of variety stage shows.

In fact, it is illegal to even take photographs during the show, unless you have absolute release from all performers, building owners, copyright holders, and an agreement from the person doing the picture taking, as to regards to what extent and purpose the photos will be used for, copyrighted, etc.

It is very sticky. At the Hale Theatre in Utah, where I to tech work, we just have a no camera policy, still and video, for everyone. We have a professional come and photograph images of casts during dress rehearsals, and then get release from the copyright holders to allow our cast members to obtain copies for personal use. We also videotape all productions for purposes of archival reference, in case we wish to repeat the show in the future, we can see just what it was we did first off.

We cannot even make audio recordings of shows for cast members. We have had instances where some cast members have bootlegged video of the shows, and if they actually get caught by the owners, they would be summarily dismissed, for sure.

So it is a very sticky and legally technical problem, when it comes to audio, video, and pictorial recreations.

Dave

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-29-2002, 09:05 AM:

Excellent point. Even if the screen was never seen in the video nor the movie soundtrack heard, what the live cast is doing involves the copyrighted screenplay and would likely be construed as infringement unless perhaps shown as a brief excerpt in the context of some other work. But to tape the their show as a whole would infringe the copyright on the play (Rocky Horror Show) and screenplay (Rocky Horror Picture Show).

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-29-2002, 10:06 AM:

Our theatre is used for live performances as well as film. We face this problem routinely and have been implementing a solution for years. First we carry yearly ASCAP and BMI blanket licenses to free us from worry about any clients using musical selections which they might played in connection with any performance. As for live taping of what is going on on stage, we have a strict "no recording devices of any kind" in the audience. If and when the producer wants to record the performance, we put the responsibility of obtaining permission for all the copyright owners involve, on the back of the person or entity wishing to do the recording.

Since we are never in a position to research who owns what, we require the recordist to sign a release stating that they have obtained permission to record the work from the people they may be filmed and from the copyright owners of any protected material that might be copied by the recording, purposely or inadvertently. The release also states that the Center be held harmless in any civil and/or criminal actions that may arise from the use of the recorded material.

That's pretty much it with respect to people recording variety shows and the like where it is impossible for us to tell what will material will be copyrighted and what won't. However in the case of the RHPS, we would know outright that all the material, including the stage performance, is copyrighted. In such a case we would always act as conservatively as possible. Here we would require the release, but if we were relax our "no devices in the theatre rule," we would definitely insist on permission from Fox. If Fox legal dept. were smart, they would let recordings of the stage show take place as this unique title relies on the whole participatory nature of the phenomenon; you would be hard-pressed find anything comparable to with any other film title. Recording the stage antics would seem harmless enough -- how much financial harm could a home recording of a RHPS stage show cause, even if a few copies would be sold to the cast? If anything, it could be argued that such a recording of the live "event" would enhance the value of the film. In any event, we would not relax our policy unless we had a piece of paper in hand from Fox saying it was OK.

Frank

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-29-2002, 10:57 AM:

Okay but I was under the impression that the performers wanted the show taped...so the issue of their performance/interpretation being under copyright is rendered moot.

As for the screenplay...yet another reason why THEY should contact the studio and get approval. I don't see this being a major issue unless they get ahold of someone at Fox with no clue as to what RHPS is.

In any event. I would insist on "no cameras" until they can provide a copy of the written approval from a studio rep. It's not the theatre's job to secure clearance for them.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-29-2002, 11:51 AM:

For videotaping to be a copyright violation one has to consider what motives are being served by the taping. The real question is: does the person shooting the video intend to sell copies of it, or distribute it in any way? If the answer is no, and it strictly for the personal use of the "cast" as a rehearsal tape or something like that then there really isn't an explicit violation.

However, if Fox got their panties in a bunch bad enough over it they might try to sue anyway. And we all know the legal system in this country far more favors those who have war chests of cash to drag out lawsuits than whoever is right. Justice? Give me a break. It is a farce.

So, if anyone was intending to videotape his friends vamping it up on a Rocky Horror show, he would be best advised to get permission from the theater and Fox to be able to bring the camera. There's a strong chance Fox would get pissy about it and say no.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-29-2002, 01:38 PM:

I don't think any recording devices of any kind should be allowed in an auditorium while there is a show on the screen or on stage unless the theatre has a document containing certified written permission by proper authority.

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 09-29-2002, 03:21 PM:

Actually when you are not even talking about screenplay or other copyrighted materials, you are still having to worry about the building owner.

Even if the cast or performer WANTS to be videotaped, of his own material, he must obtain permission from the building owner, in writing, that he is allowed to do so. There must be explicit authority given from any party of legal interest before any recreation can continue. In fact, when a comedian performs, a contract is written in advance. It prevents the promoter, booker, building owner, etc., from obtaining rights to the performed material, just because it was in his building, or his festival, etc.

Copyright infringement, intellectual property, business and personal rights... AUGH. If you are in the industry, you need a lawyer, plain and simple.

Dave

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-29-2002, 04:04 PM:

On my recent visits this past summer to Disney World and Universal Studios. I took many videos of events such as Animal Planet Live, Wild Wild west stunt show, Hall of presidents, and many other events with no problems no restrictions. I do know that video photography was not allowed on the terminator 3D production that features stage production and film.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-29-2002, 04:26 PM:

It's been about four years since I've run RHPS, but at the time we allowed still photographs, but not videotape. This avoids issues of soundtrack and screenplay copyrights, though there may be issues if on-screen images are visible in the photographs. It's probably safest to disallow both still and video photography unless the theatre or the cast gets permission from TCF.

One "middle ground" possibility might be to allow photographs/videotapes to be made of the pre-show events. This avoids all film-related rights issues, yet still allows the cast to have pictures of themselves in costume in the theatre environment.

RHPS can be lots of fun as long as a) the cast and audience respect the basic ground rules (for us, it boiled down to "don't throw stuff at the screen or the glass lighting fixtures on the walls") and b) the cast does the cleanup after the show.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 09-29-2002, 04:51 PM:

Most actors ask for, and get, copies of their work, to use on demo tapes. These demo tapes contain clips from many different copywrited works. This seams to be no problem; after all, it is their image (or voice) we are talking about. Could this come under "Fair Use"?

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-29-2002, 05:04 PM:

Yes, it certainly could come under "fair use" but I believe that the movie theatre operator would do well to err on the side of caution in this matter.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-30-2002, 01:57 AM:

And there is always the double standard -- when Al Pacino wants to use clips, no one says boo. When some kid wants to videotape his pals in a RHPS take-off, you can never tell if the Fox and the MPAA will get officious about it. Look at the trailer feasco....for decades theatre have thrown out trailers. Some 18 yr old finds one in a dumpster and tries to sell it on ebay and all of a sudden he's public enemy #1 to hear the Univesal lawyers tell it. It's all a matter of who's doing the infringing.

Posted by Rachel Gilardi (Member # 4594) on 09-30-2002, 04:47 AM:

Hmmm, this is something to think about. I was going to tape our RHPS pre-show (no RHPS sound or film) with permission from the cast and give it to Brad to put on this site (if he would like) as an example of how you can do a show without any audience props. Most of the pre-show isn't even really about RHPS except for references which I believe are not copyrighted? This is making me think twice about it, maybe I'll just take still pictures...or nothing at all...

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-30-2002, 04:57 AM:

I'm 99.999999% sure taping the intro to a RHPS show won't violate any copyright. Generally about the only thing they do that pertains specifically to the show is the opening line "welcome to the Rocky Horror Picture Show", then from there it's random things like popping virgin's cherries and such.

Posted by David Rigby (Member # 1301) on 09-30-2002, 05:36 AM:

I wonder how many parents out there are now public enemy #1 for videotaping their kids' performances of a copyrighted play in a school production?!!

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-30-2002, 05:43 AM:

Copyright issues can sometimes be terrifyingly complex. We once had an enquiry from a documentary producer who wanted to use some BBC footage (37 seconds in total) of a Middlesbrough v. Sunderland football match we hold. We found out that in order to clear it, permissions would be needed from the BBC, both football clubs, the FA, the agents of several players who appeared in the clip and possibly the Professional Footballers' Association as well! Needless to say, she quickly abandoned the idea.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-30-2002, 08:32 AM:

quote:
when Al Pacino wants to use clips, no one says boo.

What did he do?

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 09-30-2002, 01:36 PM:

Anytime you want to video or still shoot or audio clip, and you intend to ever share it with anyone, just make damn sure to cya, cover your ass. With all the hullaballoo going on right now about copyrighted material, just about anything and anyone will be fair game in the years to come.

Dave

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 10-01-2002, 12:24 PM:

When we did a RHPS show at school, they had several people videotaping the performance without ever thinking twice. Sure, the sound was on the tape, and they caught a shot of the screen occasionally when panning, but anyone who gets up in arms over something like that needs to get a life.

Copyright laws are getting out of control these days. There's a fine line between trying to protect your intellectual property, and being a greedy miser with it. I find it very hard to understand that anyone taping the actors at a RHPS show is stealing anything, no matter how legally technical you want to be about it. I'm surprised people don't have to get some sort of 76-page written permission from FOX to even perform along with the RHPS movie. As for performing a copyrighted screenplay/script, the actors at the Rocky Horror shows are hardly, if ever, following any sort of script. For one, they are not reading any lines since all the sound is coming from the film. Most of the action is improvised based on the layout of the theater and props available, too.

If I videotape a Rocky Horror Picture Show cast and FOX wants to sue me for it, let them. They can have the damn tape to kick around the office and show to their higher-ups that their little movie is still drawing a crowd after 25-some years. As if anyone would even sit through it without the shennanegans and heckling.

They should really be going after people videotaping "The Transporter", not a bunch of kids having fun on a Saturday night with an old movie.

=TMP=

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-01-2002, 11:07 PM:

Ah, Thomas....youth is a beautiful thing. It's so good to hear your call-it-like-it is exuberance. And so right you are. But this is capitalism, my boy -- EVERYONE who has the misfortune of growing up eventually become a greedy miser about this stuff!

When a kid is video taping the shenannigans at RHPS and the camera pans and catches the screen and records the music soundtrack, I would put this in the catagory of a statutory violation. Sure some MPAA lawyer with hair combed over his bald spot and bad breath could probably argue that it technically violates the copyright law and it's theft of intellectual property, but on the other side of that coin is -- hey, they have to catch you first, don't they!

I've actually invented a door frame that looks like a regular frame, but packed inside are powerful ceramic magnets. Most of the time they just promote good health as you walk back and forth through your door. However, when the FBI and the MPAA dogs come a-calling and want to see your tape collection, you just hand them the tapes and let them walk out with them in hand. Same goes for your computer hard drive.

"But Agent, Sir...I swear I have done nothing wrong, as those tapes will clearly show. Have a nice day, and watch your step as you leave."

It might also be a good idea to take the lead from the studios themselves....use decoy titles on all your tapes and film cans.

Yes, as you might have guessed from this post, at the moment I am suffereing from sleep deprevation.