Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 'SIGNS' far too loud....

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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-02-2002, 02:27 PM:

Has anyone else had problems with the sound level on 'Signs'...

At normal fader setting the film was painfully loud!

I was aware that we were running it a bit lower... but when I ran myself two days ago it was almost 1 1/5 steps lower on the fader than normal, we have CP45's in our non-THX screens. We were running on DTS at the time. Adverts and trailers were normal, about 5 1/4.

I switched between DTS and SR during the film and the levels were matched so its not a setup problem or a difference between the sound formats. I've recently done a full 'B' chain in this screen and no problems so its clearly the print.

I thought we'd got away from such dramatic level changes in films with the advent of Dolby becoming standard.

Any comments?

Posted by Wes Hughes (Member # 981) on 10-02-2002, 02:41 PM:

We dropped SIGNS a few weeks ago, and I could be wrong, but I *THINK* that we had to run that film at a HIGHER fader level than normal!

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-02-2002, 02:54 PM:

If we were to run it higher than our normal setting there would be blood pouring from everyones ears!!

I can't recall having the same problems when we opened it in SRD in our THX screen.....

As I said it's not the equipment as the ads etc are running fine as normal. Odd why you would have to run it higher!! I can't see how different print runs would have any real effect on playback levels.... and even then that would not explain why the DTS levels matched corectly?

Just to confirm, other prints are running fine in that screen.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-02-2002, 03:02 PM:

I remember Signs playing at a regular setting. It did not need to be turned up or down on the prints I ran.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-02-2002, 03:09 PM:

We played it at regular levels. I thought it sounded very good.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-02-2002, 03:15 PM:

Regular levels (6.5 to 7.0) in SR, SR-D and DTS in various auditoria.

Personally, I thought it was a little on the quiet side, but I didn't go cranking the volume up.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 10-02-2002, 03:25 PM:

We also felt it was kind of a quiet movie especially in our larger houses, and especially when they were sold out. We ran ours (SDDS & DTS) slightly above reference level most of the time. I spoke to someone who saw this movie and said that it wasn't scary at all, and I asked her how loud it was. She said "not very loud." I asked "Could it have been turned up a little?" and she said "Yes." That's why the scary parts didn't scare them I think. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-02-2002, 03:33 PM:

OK so there are enough of you all saying it was standard!! shame there are no other UK guys looking in, in case it is a problem with our prints....

Looks like I'll be checking the system out in the morning... Can't see what the problem could be.... but I'll check it out anyway, got to justify the extortionate wages I'm being paid.... NOT!!

I'll report back in the next day or so.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-02-2002, 03:39 PM:

I don't want to turn this into a critique of the film but I think there are other reasons why I did not find this movie to be very scary. But I agree that the (lack of) loudness is probably a factor.

In contrast, I can still remember seeing the latest "Halloween" movie in a theatre where they must've had a special fader that went all the way up to 20. A deafening experience. I asked them to turn the volume down twice and I don't think they really did anything about it. I was truly living in fear of the next loud passage.

Back to "Signs"... I must say I really got a kick out of how the surrounds were used when the creatures were scurrying about on the wooden surfaces overhead. Even in SR it was fun to hear that.

~Manny (the devil is in the details).

Posted by Les Brock (Member # 1041) on 10-02-2002, 06:51 PM:

At the refurbished High Wycombe Filmworks we ran SIGNS on its opening night.

SDDS was used and the fader was run at -2dB.

We rehersed the print earlier in the day and ran at reference level 0dB.

It did sound on the loud side in places but not ear splitting loud.

There is a lot of surround activity but this wasnt over powering.

------------------
Les Brock
Principal Engineer
SDDS Systems.
Priestley Road Basingstoke,Hants
United Kingdom, RG24 9JP

Phone +44 1256 484924

Les.Brock@sonybpe.com

Website www.sdds.com

Posted by Ray Brown (Member # 1449) on 10-02-2002, 07:45 PM:

Sounded just fine in our local theater. No one complained.

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 10-03-2002, 12:14 PM:

Ken,

I'd suggest a full B-chain alignment to be sure that levels are set properly in the cinema processor. Be sure that your tech uses a setup disc and sets the DTS for 300mV RMS output on all channels. This should match the buss level on the cinema processor.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 10-03-2002, 04:56 PM:

Im surprised people have a normal fader level for features!
Most films are so different in level. i.e Road to Perdition 5.5 MAX and Insomnia 6.5, Thats a big difference in my books.
Darren

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-03-2002, 05:02 PM:

Hi Karen,

thanks for that, I do my own installs now and have a full set of equipment and a full set of DTS discs provided by the good people at DTS in the UK.

I did in fact check the b-chain levels this morning and they are correct. As I mentioned before the levels are the same if switching between DTS and SR when the feature itself is running so its not an alignment fault between the DTS and the CP45.

Besides the adverts and trailers are fine at 5 1/4 which is the normal setting.

It's definitely the print and the DTS track as they match....
The print moves into an SRD screen tomorrow so I'll be interested to see how it compares there.

This is the first time I've ever had a feature that was as loud as this which is why I raised the point in the first place. All our films run within a 1/4 fader step so to have to run a full step down is very unusual indeed. The only other option is a faulty remote fader. For some silly design reason the volume will go to full if there is a dead spot on the fader track or it becomes disconnected. Additionally you can't setup a CP45 with the remote fader... only the main fader. However that would not explain why the adverts and trailers are fine!!

The plot thickens or is it just me

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 10-03-2002, 05:15 PM:

When the theater I'm at moved "Signs" from a stereo house to a mono house, I was supprised how much of the sound was lost in mono. "Signs" makes exensive use of the surrounds, and I would venture to guess that if the surrounds were too low or too high it would make a big impact on how the overall volume sounded in that auditorium.

BTW the opening music is VERY lame in mono.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-03-2002, 06:24 PM:

quote:
Additionally you can't setup a CP45 with the remote fader.

Then why does it have a "Fader Active" button and wiring points for a remote fader?

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-03-2002, 06:56 PM:

Hi Manny,

ok.... with main fader selected, go into setup mode on the CP45 and get pink noise running, then press the remote fader active button and you will drop out of pink noise. Likewise you cannot enter setup & pink noise with the remote fader selected!! Great bit of design! You can't setup the equipment in the way some places use it... ie with the remote fader selected.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-03-2002, 10:25 PM:

I see...you are talking about using the Remote Fader in set-up mode. My mistake. I thought you were saying that using a Remote Fader wouldn't work at all.

I'm at a loss as to why you'd ever have the need to set-up the system with the remote fader active..? Tell me, tell me.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-04-2002, 04:24 AM:

Are you sitting comfortably....

If you have a faulty remote fader pot there is no way of checking it quickly by switching between main and remote. Also the two faders seldom match exactly setting for setting. It's not a big problem just annoying.

If I remember correctly Manny, you have some CP45's..... Our's are possibly the only one's in captivity that have auto Fade-In & Fade-Out. If you are interested I'll let you know which cap's to change.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-05-2002, 10:52 AM:

If other films are playing through the same DTS player and processor at higher volume settings, I'd say the chances are there is a print and/or disc issue.

I agree with Darren, though - I remember that gain levels on prints did seem to vary a great deal. As Ken points out, Dolby should have standardised all that, but it doesn't seem to have done so. The number of people in the auditorium also makes a difference, too. In some places I worked the difference between a full house and one with just two or three people in it was a full point on the fader. And if it was raining outside (lots of wet, sound absorbant clothing) you needed to wind the wick up even more.

Perhaps Dolby could include a feature on their next generation of processors whereby a microphone in the auditorium constantly monitors the ambient sound level and automatically adjusts the preamp gain to give you an average output of X decibels? You could preset levels for ads/trailers and feature. Other than selecting the approporiate preset, setting the volume level would then be done automatically and you'd never have to touch a fader again.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-05-2002, 01:11 PM:

OK

We are now running Lilo & Stick in DTS/SR and it's back to normal as far as fader setting is concerned. It must have been the print???

Everything else checks out A & B chain etc. Funny thing is the print runs normal in an SRD screen! It will be interesting when it moves down to our fourth DTS/SR screen!! If it is the print the fader will anagain have to drop by a full step. But its certainly not the equipment....

Thanks for all the interest.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-05-2002, 01:22 PM:

quote:
It must have been the print???

One way to test it: Do you have another theatre you can run it in? Or are you a single screen house?

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-05-2002, 02:14 PM:

We are a four screen...

Screen One THX SRD.... soon to be DTS as well when I get time to install it.

Screen Two and Four SR /DTS
Screen Three SRD.

Signs is now playing in screen three in SRD and no problem.

It'll move into screen four next week I should imagin which is the same as the other DTS screen so It'll be interesting to see how it plays. But yes, it can only be the print which I find very worrying.

Posted by Les Brock (Member # 1041) on 10-06-2002, 11:54 AM:

Hi Ken,

This is indeed and interesting issue with the levels on Signs.

Someimes the DTS disc is made from a copy of the SDDS Printmaster and although SDDS was louder it wasn't that loud. However, I dont know if they used the SDDS printmaster on this occasion.

Even stranger is the fact that the DTS level matched the Dolby SR level but the SRD level is ok.

When the Dolby MO printmaster is made ( it contains the SRD & SR tracks ) the levels are usually checked.

Maybe you could ask BVI ( Buena Vista ) to check the print after its run has finished ?

They have an excellent screening room at their offices in London with all the sound formats.

------------------
Les Brock
Principal Engineer
SDDS Systems.
Priestley Road Basingstoke,Hants
United Kingdom, RG24 9JP

Phone +44 1256 484924

Les.Brock@sonybpe.com

Website www.sdds.com

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-06-2002, 12:02 PM:

Thanks for that Les...

I'm waiting for the print to move into another DTS/SR screen this week, or may run it myself in the morning if I have time. I know all of my screens are correctly setup as I do them myself, with the exception of the THX screen.

Clearly as the DTS and SR tracks match in level and the fact that adverts and trailers run at normal level clearly demonstrate its not an equipment problem. It just seems very odd that the levels are soooo high.

As always time is against me and I can't devote a lot of time due to other work commitments. But I'll keep an eye on the print when it moves down a screen this week.

Thanks to all who have commented.