Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Do you play trailers in digital if the feature is analog?

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 10-03-2002, 10:49 AM:

We have a running debate at our theater that pops up from time to time, and I wanted to float it here for discussion. It's our theater's corporate policy that all trailers are supposed to be played in digital sound if possible. But my feeling is that the trailers shouldn't sound better than the feature. Especially our Feature Presentation snipe (which is the last thing they see before the feature) can end up being 8 Channel SDDS if played in the right auditorium, then to drop down to a four channel analog mix - I don't know. To me, that seems like a distraction. But I will concede that most patrons either a) won't notice it, or b) will notice it but forget it in about 60 seconds. Any thoughts?

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-03-2002, 10:54 AM:

I would not do that.

Nothing should look or sound better than the feature. For the same reason, I do not encourage showing scope trailers before a flat movie.

Occasionally, there are exceptions but not many.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 10-03-2002, 10:55 AM:

I strongly prefer that the trailers be played in digital sound, with one possible caveat: They must not be so loud that they cause audience complaints that result in the overall sound level being dropped to a point that is then too low for the feature. Get the volume right for the feature, and if a few people complain that the trailers are too loud, ignore them and/or tell them the volume will be correct when the feature starts.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 10-03-2002, 11:09 AM:

But even if the faders are set at somewhat similar levels, the sound is considerably 'brighter' for lack of a better word. I agree that they shouldn't be louder than the feature, which is often unavoidable, but I don't think the sound field should be significantly better either. If that happens to me while I'm watching a movie, the first thing I think is that something didn't switch over correctly, or there's some kind of a problem. That's just my thoughts, anyway.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-03-2002, 11:38 AM:

IMHO, you should play all films in the best available sound format for that auditorium. First, why not give the audience the best sound available for everything shown? Second, it reminds the audience that the theatre is equipped for digital sound. If the feature has a lesser format (analog stereo or even mono) than some of the trailers, so be it. If anyone complains, explain that that was the choice of the filmmakers, and not a deficiency of the theatre sound system.

Obviously, you should NOT run a Dolby Digital, DTS, or SDDS sound snipe if you are showing the feature with analog sound. But IMHO, coming attraction trailers should be run with the best available sound format on that screen.

The TASA Committee is exploring additional reductions in LEQ(m) levels used for trailers:
http://www.boxoff.com/issues/feb01/tasa.html
http://www.mpaa.org/jack/2001/2001_05_09.htm
http://www.dolby.com/tech/toolouds.pdf
http://www.dolby.com/press/meter.html
http://www.dolby.com/press/wb.pr.0101.AMPAS.html

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 10-03-2002, 11:56 AM:

I'd just play them all analog- the trailers are so damned loud already (even in analog) that you would have to ride the fader between analog and digital programs even more-

If you prefer to do so, go ahead and run them, in the digital format of your choice, with SDDS being the sole exception:

Why not SDDS?
Running the SDDS reader during the analog feature does nothing but wear out the very expensive LED arrays in the reader, since they are running without any purpose after the trailer pack has passed thru.
Unless of course you turned off the SDDS processor (this action can apply to DTS processors and Dolby penthouse readers as well) at the beginning of the feature, which shuts the reader down saving its LEDs.

-Aaron

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-03-2002, 12:13 PM:

I always play trailers in analog. When possible, I also lower the fader setting for trailers and raise it for the feature. Of course, the feature (and any shorts) should be played in the best available sound format for which the theatre is equipped.

I agree with Manny--nothing should look or sound better than the feature, with the possible exception of running 1.85 trailers before a 1.33 feature.

On the other hand, I might be able to be convinced to run trailers in digital if they weren't mixed so darn loud. This has improved in recent years, but is still a problem.

Posted by Rachel Gilardi (Member # 4594) on 10-03-2002, 01:13 PM:

I always play trailers on a movie w/o digital in analog. I would prefer the trailers didn't sound better then the feature. Some people in my theater show the trailers in digital, just depends on who is upstairs that particular day. It's all a matter of preference.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 10-03-2002, 01:24 PM:

That's what we're running into. Most in our booth I dare say don't even check the print to see what sound is on it, they don't move the DTS disks around when necessary, etc. I'm planning on having a training day for sound for our booth folks, and this is one thing I plan to bring up. I wanted to see if there was a concensus here one way or the other what was best, and clearly there isn't one! Which is just as well. I may end up leaving the decision to them as long as they understand the pros and cons of each side. Right now they don't. Or we may set up a policy. Not sure yet. Thanks for the feedback!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-03-2002, 01:29 PM:

Assuming your analog A-chain is aligned properly, there shouldn't be much difference in tonal quality from digital to SR. I don't mind playing trailers in digital, but I greatly prefer to set up a custom format and disable the subwoofer for them. Action movies aside, frequently the most agressive part of a movie experience IS those trailers. I have found consistently that *most* customers do not want to be blown away at the trailers, especially when they are coming to a drama or comedy movie (pretty much anything non-action/non-horror). They get up and complain because they are worried the feature will rip their ears off. I am a strong advocate of playing trailers at the same volume you would watch the evening news or a tv sitcom at. Playing them in SR also just happens to help.

BTW you mentioned your feature prez snipe was in SDDS-8. That tells me your company has a LOT of SDDS units (and it also tells me where you work). Because of this, Aaron's point of saving the leds really does have merit. I used to put a rubber band over the closed pad rollers on the SDDS reader head (2000 series model) as a signal to the operators that this movie was not in SDDS and not to thread it, or I would turn off the unit and put a piece of tape over the power button labeled "film not in sdds". Over the course of a few years, I'm quite certain I bought the company a solid 6 months of extra led time on their units. I doubt they truly appreciated my extra trouble, but it DID save them money.

This also really doesn't belong in this forum. Moving.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 10-03-2002, 01:33 PM:

I've debated this subject too- it's my opinion that everything should be played in the proper sound format, so if you have trailers in digital sound played before a movie in analog mono, so be it. I have several DVDs (from MGM) of older movies which first play the new MGM Home Video intro in 5.1, then switch to mono for the actual movie. In theatres I've always preferred to run the trailers in digital even if the feature isn't (or if it's in a format the theatre doesn't have) because at least the digital system that IS there is being used. I'd run color trailers before a black-and-white movie too. The volume level of the trailers shouldn't be louder than the movie though; it usually isn't too much trouble to just manually turn the volume down for the trailers then turn it up for the feature. CP-500's can be programmed to do this automatically too.
And if Steve is reading this

I don't consider it the same as combining flat and scope in the same show, because the masking should not change when customers are there to see it- you don't see the speakers folding up when changing sound formats!

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 10-03-2002, 01:41 PM:

Brad,

Sorry for posting in the wrong forum. Great ideas on how to help those that don't pay very close attention to what they're doing. And I hadn't thought of the LED lifespan argument either. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to guess where I worked. :-)

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 10-03-2002, 02:37 PM:

As a frequent movie patron, I do prefer to see trailers shown with digital sound even though the feature came only with a analogue track. I recall a time when I saw a recent Woody Allan film that was released in all three digital formats but the sound mix itself was mono. What was so funny with this presentation was the difference between the sound of the SRD trailer (TRAIN) and the feature itself. The auditorium was filled with wonderful sound during the trailer and 'died' when the feature flashed on the screen. In cases like this when the feature is in mono with digital sound encoding, I would prefer digital sound trailers not be used to avoid confusion.

-Claude

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 10-03-2002, 03:04 PM:

I just read your post again, Brad. If you know where I work, you probably know of another stupid policy they have about not showing ANYTHING in SR. At least, that's what I keep hearing. Even though 90% of our auditoriums are Ultra Stereos and don't have SR anyway. But I agree with you - SR prints played back in SR in a properly A Chained theater sounds excellent, and in some cases, gives some recent digital mixes a run for their money.

But in my case, playing a Feature Presentation snipe in SDDS 8, then switching to SR analog played back through an Ultra Stereo processor is just bad.... IMO. (No, our Ultra Stereos don't have the "Future" cards.)

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 10-03-2002, 04:48 PM:

How about if your a THX auditoroum and your showing a 1950's print on a sunday afternoon, i know not many of you will but i have this dillema every so often. I sometimes don't show the THX logo (breaking the contract i know) or just show the THX logo silent for a few seconds before the feature in Mono.

Whats your take on it?

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-03-2002, 04:53 PM:

I agree with John.... the trailers etc should be presented at their best... irrispective of the sound format of the feature.

As for playing an SDDS logo befor a non SDDS feature.... why?

The trailers are there to provide a taste of the film and its mood.... and the soundtrack is an important part of that. We don't run trailers on the front of the feature EVER!! If its a trailer that must be run it is removed and run with our own trailers.

It's like turning down the sound in action films. That's making an artistic decison which I don't think is our job. If the director has decided that the effects should be much louder than the dialog thats an artistic choice and its not up to us to decide otherwise.

If it were possible, would you run trailers in mono and Black & White just because the feature was? I don't think so, so why should the sound be treated any differently. Trailers are there to build excitement and expectation....

well thats my thought's on it for what it matters.

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 10-03-2002, 05:35 PM:

Initially when I saw the tread title I was going to say that I would play trailers in anaog if the feature was amalog. But i guess it's a tricky decision. Trailers are there to advertise and excite about a certain movie and the soundtrack is important.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 10-03-2002, 06:28 PM:

I agree with David S., that it is my preference for trailers to be played in digital. However, I too think that they should be played at a lower volume so as not to cause audience complaints.

Braid said:

quote:
I have found consistently that *most* customers do not want to be blown away at the trailers, especially when they are coming to a drama or comedy movie (pretty much anything non-action/non-horror). They get up and complain because they are worried the feature will rip their ears off. I am a strong advocate of playing trailers at the same volume you would watch the evening news or a tv sitcom at. Playing them in SR also just happens to help.

That is the exact reason why, at the last theater I worked at, our tech set up the euipment such that the trailers would play in analog and the feature would be cued to play in digital. This was with a CP-650. What I don't understand at all is why he chose A as the analog format!! All of our trailers would play in Format 4, even though the analog soundtrack on them was Format 5. He said it helped reduce complaints. Getting back to my point, he set up Format 4 to not be Auto Digital and to start out at, IIRC, volume setting 5. When the 650 switched over to Format 10 (or Format 11), it would then be playing at volume 7 and would be set to revert to Format 5 if there was digital dropout.

My understanding, if I am reading the manual correctly, is that you can create custom formats with the CP-650. If I wanted to play the trailers in digital, but just at a lower volume than the feature, would it be possible to create another Format 10 that started out at a lower volume, and then cue the processor to change to the "regular" Format 10 which would be set for volume level 7? Can this be done with any other processors?

Another question along the lines of the original topic of this thread: What if one or two of the trailers in your trailer pack have no digital? (I.E. An art or foreign film.) Would you play those trailers first so that the rest of the show would be in digital, or would you play the entire trailer pack in analog?

quote:
Unless of course you turned off the SDDS processor (this action can apply to DTS processors and Dolby penthouse readers as well) at the beginning of the feature, which shuts the reader down saving its LEDs.

I would think that all the on/off action throughout the day would not be good for the LEDs. I would just leave the SDDS off and play the trailers in analog in that case.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-03-2002, 06:29 PM:

Darren you should know better...

The THX logo is NOT about sound its about the whole environment INCLUDING the sound. By showing the THX logo you are advertising a commitment to good presentation, showing the film, no matter how old, in the best possible environment with little or no keystone distortion, no noisy distracting ventilation and good focus etc etc....

It's a common misconception by the public and, unfortunatly people who should know better, that THX is all about sound... it most certainly is not!

Old movies deserve and benefit from good presentation in the same way as new films, that's why our company, City Screen, have made a decision to put THX in at least one screen in all of our newer openings. It shows a commitment to good presentation and the future of cinema as the prefered place to see a movie.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-03-2002, 06:50 PM:

Hi Ken,

the led's will not be harmed in any way by switching on and off all day.... think about any Dolby processor and there are led's on them that flicker in sync with the sound output as an indicator. They don't fail noticably quicker than any other I think you'll find.

I tend to run my trailers in date order making no allowence for sound format. I wouldn't dream of re ordering the advert reel so why the trailers.

By separating the trailers into format types you are highlighting any differences..... let the trailers speak for themselves.

Another thought, often the distributor logo's are non-digital, non DTS when the feature is digital/DTS, so would you run them silent?

I go back to my original thought that we are not there to make artistic decisions about the film we show.

When you think about it, there has been a whole revival of many films by releasing a 'Directors' cut restoring the mood and atmosphere that the director intended. When someone else interfers with someone else's 'vision' it can change the whole film in ways that were never considered. That applies to sound more so today with the dynamic range available, from total silence to earth shaking explosions.
The effect of an explosion followed by the sound of falling debris followed by an erie silence can be lost if the sound level is turned down... the drama is in the volume range. Digital enhances this effect because of its dynamic range so if you have it use it!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-03-2002, 06:53 PM:

I agree with the opinions stated that if the featured film has only analog sound, or can only be played in analog because of hardware compatibility, then all of the trailers before the show should only be analog. I don't think it would make much sense for the trailers to sound better than the feature.

Showing format trailers implies the film will be presented in that format. Most will not understand it to say "we have SDDS hardware even though this film isn't in SDDS".

Any THX snipe showed before an analog SR show should be played in analog. Run an SR-only version of "Cimarron" or "Simpsons" if it is a comedy. Or run "Broadway" or "Broadway 2000" in SR.

As for trailer loudness, ALL trailers regardless of format seem way loud to me. I listened to many an analog only trailer that seemed too loud and shrill. If anything, I strongly prefer listening to a movie trailer in digital if the thing is loud. At least if it is digital sound it will be better balanced and not so damned harsh.

If automation companies have not already invented it, they need to invent a volume fader timer for the cinema processor. You program it to play at a certain lower volume for the running time of the trailers. Then the volume level raises up to normal reference level for the feature. This would seem like an easy thing to include in any digital-oriented cinema processor.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-03-2002, 07:05 PM:

So old B&W Mono film.... trailers etc in mono? I think the distributors and advertisers would certainly have something to say about that.....

If it's a dynamic film and the trailers demonstrates it then it should be run that way.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 10-03-2002, 08:35 PM:

>>I would think that all the on/off action [of the SDDS reader] throughout the day would not be good for the LEDs.<<

If you have ever seen an SDDS reader up close you will notice that as the large sprocket in the center of the reader is rotated, the LEDS flash off and on. As many as 48 (96?) times per second at 24fps film run speed. Also the LEDs are driven by a precision regulated power supply and would not be affected by powering up and down, as Ken M mentioned.

>>As for playing an SDDS logo befor a non SDDS feature.... why?<<

I think they are referring to a policy/'Feature Presentation' trailer with an SDDS-8 soundtrack.

-Aaron

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 10-03-2002, 08:35 PM:

IMHO, playing the trailers or THX snipe in the format they were intended to be heard in is simply a way of indicating to the audience,

"Look, there is nothing wrong with our sound system, this is simply the way the director wanted you to hear this feature."

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-03-2002, 09:11 PM:

Bobby,
it is possible to remote-control the fader with some automation equipment. For instance, the electronic matrix from Pennywise which comes with Kinoton projectors can be connected to the sound processor to control the fader by an analogue voltage or a serial connection. All you have to do is to program an extra step with a lower volume for trailers and then one more step for the feature volume which is triggered by a piece of metal foil on the film. This is what we do to avoid excessive trailer loudness.
The SDDS DFP-D3000 has a very helpful feature to battle loud trailers. Provided the trailer is in SDDS and its name is included in the user data, you can set the volume for each individual trailer manually, and the DFP will remember this setting every time the trailer is played. If you move the trailer to a different cinema, you can transfer the settings with a laptop.
Also, we never play loud "action" trailers before a quiet movie. And of course, the format trailers should not be played when the feature does not play in that sound format.
It also helps to chose which format trailer to play with which feature. For instance, Dolby`s "Egypt" ot dts`s "Sonic Landscape" trailers are rather quiet, athmospheric trailers which go well with non-action movies.
Michael

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-03-2002, 10:22 PM:

quote:
So old B&W Mono film.... trailers etc in mono?

That's a special case. I would have the trailers play in analog and then slug in a few moments of total silence before bringing in the mono movie.

As for the logo snipe, it should match the format of the feature.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 10-04-2002, 08:11 AM:

WOW! Lots of strong (and good) opinions on both sides of the issue. This is a very interesting discussion. I'm not sure I agree with the idea that playing the analog track instead of one of the three other digital tracks necessarily takes anything away from the director's vision. After all, the director put the analog track there too. And to follow that logic, it would imply that playing an SRD only print in one of our Ultra Stereo/DTS/SDDS houses would be changing the artistic intent of the film, and I don't quite agree with that. I do agree that it's not the best way to show the movie (or trailer) though. At the same time, we're letting limitations of the feature (be they artistic limitations, financial limitations of the production, or limitations in the era of the film) dictate restrictions on the presentation of other films' trailers. To me, that's acceptable.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-04-2002, 08:26 AM:

Since when is it a requirement to run the THX logo before films presented in a THX-certified house? I've never heard of that one before.

For a mono feature, it is probably a judgment call as to whether or not to run trailers in mono. For a "new" mono mix that is likely to sound quite good (like a Woody Allen film), I'd probably run trailers in Dolby. For an older film which would likely lack the dynamic range of today's systems, I'd probably run trailers in mono.

I agree that exhibitors shouldn't (normally) be in the position to make artistic decisions about the films that they show, but I don't see this as being a hard and fast rule. If playing a particular film (or trailer) at a fader setting of "7" results in multiple complaints and angry customers, then I'll definitely run it at a lower fader setting. And, anyway, I don't think that running a given film/trailer in mono as opposed to Dolby is much of an alteration; after all, mono-only houses do this sort of thing all the time.

Again, I might feel differently if trailers weren't so loud, but I defy anyone to play something like the "Y Tu Mama Tambien" trailer at "7" and not generate numerous complaints (and hearing problems) for the audience.

Ken: you can easily set up multiple formats with different fader settings on the CP500 as well (see the "CP500 auto-digital bugginess" thread). I haven't seen the 650, but I assume that it works similarly.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-04-2002, 08:58 AM:

I agree that there really isn't much tonal difference between SR and Digital. I have always played my trailers in digital, but at a noticeably lower volume than the feature. Trailers are when people are apt to complain the most, so if you don't play them at a lower volume people are more likely to complain that the sound is too loud, because they think the feature will make their heads explode. Yet another reason (of many, many, many) to have a CA21 automation.

Yes, THX is indeed about more than just sound. But 99.999999999% of people do not know that. They all equate it with sound. Plus, showing the THX logo these days has become a non-event in most auditoriums. You might as well show a trailer advertising it is in color. I like THX standards, don't get me wrong.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-04-2002, 10:40 AM:

Scott I didnt intend to suggest running film too loud at all, sorry if thats how it came over. But from some of the postings it's clear some are running them very low intentionally.

In the UK things have changed a little recently as the advertising companied have made a commitment to have adverts and trailers for that matter printed with more consistant lower sound levels. In general I'd say it is working and things playback better now than they did.

Its very difficult to satisfy everone where sound levels are concerned. I know of middleaged people who will turn the volume down on their tv if there is the slightest hint of a bass vibration, irrespective of the overall sound level of what they are watching. How do you satisfy people like that when they visit a cinema with a modern all singing, all dancing sound system, against the rest of the audience.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-04-2002, 10:45 AM:

Joe,

thank god you ended with 'I like THX standards, don't get me wrong' I didn't have you as a ludite at all

The whole issue is a minefield... you can only do your best and hope it all comes right. Someone will always complain!!

Anytime you guys are passing Stratford.... please do just that. I'd hate to have you all sitting in on a screening. I can imagin the queue at the office door at the end of the show...

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-04-2002, 11:53 AM:

I wouldn't see any reason not to run digital in front of an analog film. An exciting soundtrack may be part of what you will be selling with this upcoming film. A process snipe would be a no no since most people would interpret that as indicative of what they were about to hear.

For image, I would agree with those who say that the trailers should not be in a larger format than the feature. I have nothing against seeing the masking move IF it's a constant height theatre and the masking is going from 1.85 to Scope. This is a motion--like curtains parting--that people are familiar with and opening to a larger size for the feature is pleasant to see. Unfortunately with a turret there is alway a brief period with no picture which doesn't enhance the presentation--not as nice as simply changing over and opening the masking to the new picture size. The platter equivalent would be to run 1.85-within-Scope trailers with the masking in and then opening on the feature or feature presentation strip. That would mean any policies, commercials or other strips & snipes would also have to be this way. If the movie is flat then the trailers should be too.

For common width projection I think it's best not to let the audience see that format change--even if going from Scope trailers to flat movie. That whole arrangement leaves a lot to be desired--and I don't blame the film technical people for wanting the biggest screen that will fit. Blame the architect for designing a room not wide enough for a Scope screen. Anyway, I don't think it's a good idea to let the audience see how stupid the Scope presentation will be in that hall even if today they are watching flat. So no format changes with the audience for those screens.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-04-2002, 05:35 PM:

General thought here on the people who are pro-playing trailers in digital (not asking anyone specific)...

So what are all of those theaters that don't have any form of digital sound (or don't have the proper digital player for the print they are showing) supposed to do? Since they cannot present the movie in the proper digital format, should they even show the movie? I mean, the general argument for playing trailers in digital is to present them with the best sound possible...so any theater that cannot present the feature is automatically crap and should just close their doors? After all, they wouldn't be presenting their feature in the best sound possible. What about non-THX theaters? I guess we should just close them as well.

Remember guys, they are just trailers. People come to see the movie. Trailers are an extra. To my knowledge there are only a handful of theaters in the D/FW area that have adjustable trailer/feature volume settings via the automation. Because of this the trailers are either WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too loud for the movie to be at a proper level or the trailers play fine and then I find myself leaning toward the screen trying to hear the movie. If someone runs the trailers in SR to aleviate even just a bit of this problem, then WAY TO GO!

I might also remind everyone that SR if aligned properly will sound very, very close to digital anyway. I will even further that in saying that I commonly find more good sounding SR houses than digital houses these days. Give me good SR over bad digital any day.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 10-04-2002, 06:24 PM:

I guess I was spaced out when I initially looked at this thread. I misconstrued the topic somehow. So I'm going to alter my position on this from what I originally said.

If the feature is playing in analog, it's *probably* better to play the trailers in analog too. The trailers shouldn't sound better than the feature. Same deal as not changing the masking on a common-width screen from flat to scope while the audience is watching. The rule of thumb for sound should be "show the feature in the best sound format you are equipped for and that the feature supports". If that's SR, fine. SR can sound pretty darned good, as Brad said. The 2 largest Regal houses here in Eugene both have excellent SR, and sometimes it's tough to tell with just a short listen whether something is playing in analog vs. in digital. And if you have SR and it doesn't sound good, get it fixed. If you're mono or A (or some Brand X clone of Dolby A) and can't afford digital, try to move up to SR, because it really can sound very good.

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 10-04-2002, 07:33 PM:

Brad- thanks for that input! Do I wish that all our houses were digital with Dolby top of the line processors? You bet!

But the fact of the matter is that we are an independent up against the big boys. Yes, we have DTS, but not as many houses as I would like. In the meantime, we do well with SR and try to maintain those houses at peak performance. Are our customers happy? We look at the numbers with business up over 25% from this time last year.

According to the EDI's, our competitors can not match that.

So...we must be doing something right. My philosophy? Give the best presentation that you possibly can with the equipment at your disposal. Then better times will come, and we will be the first to put money back into our operation to upgrade wherever we can.

In the meantime. playing trailers in digital with an analog print is the least of our concerns.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-04-2002, 08:17 PM:

I'm not really following the logic of condemning theatres that can't play digital and how that ties to playing of trailers. (I would go so far as to say that in this day and age maybe a theatre without decent stereo analog sound ought not to be in the business of playing first run product. Almost two decades into SVA that's not an unreasonable minimum standard. I think an audience can justifiably expect something more than just mono for their money.)

If trailers were simply about a movie then perhaps there would be some justification to not having them show up the feature, but since by and large trailers are samples of the movie being advertised assuming that the film will (or is, on another screen) be shown in digital stereo, why not let the audience have the full experience? The theatre is selling the presentation as well as the story, acting, etc.

If you follow the opposite theory then does that mean you would play trailers in mono if your feature is mono?

Let me throw something else into this: Didn't the Cinerama Dome / Arclight recently include a genuine 3-panel Cinerama trailer presentation with their regular movie screenings? Of course that even contradicts the idea that the image should not be smaller for the feature. Then again you can imagine a bunch of bedazzled people going, "Wow! I'm there!" Is that not the purpose of running a trailer? This is a business, after all. You've already sold them tonight's ticket. You do have to think about next week's.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-04-2002, 08:30 PM:

If the movie is in mono (like a Woody Allen movie), my preference is to run the trailers in SR with the surround amps turned off and then the feature in digital. (Actually that is my preference for all movies, but it is not possible in most multiplexes.) I want the "wow factor" to kick in with the surrounds, sub and digital when the feature presentation begins.

I guess I'm not understanding your viewpoint here either.

quote:
" This is a business, after all. You've already sold them tonight's ticket. You do have to think about next week's."

...and that's exactly why I don't like to make my customer's ears bleed with overly loud trailers played in digital. The customers remember it and start coming intentionally late or most often do not return at all. Whoops, there goes next week's business because they will no longer patronize your theater or because they didn't see next week's upcoming movie promotional trailer.

Remember, most people do not like to be assaulted with the sound system the second the show starts. Not blowing them away from the start of the trailers gives them time to settle in. Plus that helps to enforce the experience of the feature they are watching when it is played at the proper level. It's sort of like going to a theater where they splice all of the trailers butted up to one another with no green band or pause at all. It gives a panicked and rushed feeling to the trailer presentation.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-04-2002, 10:10 PM:

Certainly trailers should play at an appropriate level and not make people uncomfortable. That's a given in any case. Digital sound doesn't need to be assaultive. What are we talking about here anyway? Mostly the ability to drive each channel independently and split surrounds. No reason to assume that the same trailer in analog would much less annoying if played at the same level. Digital can make matters worse but there's no reason it has to.

I agree with you about people settling in although I would be more concerned about the transition from zowie trailer to subdued feature opening. I've spoken with the editor who claimed that all that black film Warner Bros. puts between printed-on trailers and the feature was done at his behest. The feature presentation snipe helps a bit with that although if one wants to be conscientious one could program the trailers in an arc that ends with a subdued one before quiet feature. The settling in phase is also partially covered by the policy if any.

Of course one presumes there is some thought given to which trailers play with which feature. The "Fast and the Furious" crowd is probably not going to mind being blown away by the trailers.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-04-2002, 11:23 PM:

Okay...Someone was bound to ask sooner or later...I'm surprised it wasn't sooner...

What if it's a silent film? What if it's black-and-white?

No...Please...Let's not even go there. Most movies today have a stereo mix and most are in color and most are 1.85 or 2.30-something ratio. So I'm wondering if we could please stay within the realm of what's likely -- in the interest of reigning-in all of the insane possibilities?

But that's just a suggestion. Maybe I should leave it to Mark (the topic starter) to decide how far is too far.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-05-2002, 10:05 AM:

Quote:
What are we talking about here anyway? Mostly the ability to drive each channel independently and split surrounds. No reason to assume that the same trailer in analog would much less annoying if played at the same level.

The digital sound formats have 10dB more dynamic headroom compared to Dolby SR. Seperate channels make a far greater signal density (that is what we call it in German, it`s probably not the correct English term) possible which results in a far greater perceived loudness. Also the digital formats have a better frequency response and can deliver more high frequency content which can make the sound more intense. And then there is the discrete LFE channel...
I am a bit surprised that there are so many posts which say there is not a big difference between analogue and digital sound. Personally, I think there is a huge difference. A first-run theater today should have digital sound. Playing in analogue today is a bit like the theaters which didn`t have 70mm back then and played the 35mm versions instead. On the other hand, you don`t need a THX license today because THX today is not a high standard anymore.
Michael

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-05-2002, 11:27 AM:

quote:
I am a bit surprised that there are so many posts which say there is not a big difference between analogue and digital sound.

As Brad pointed out earlier, great-sounding analog is possible. It depends on a solid A-Chain alignment. I'm inclined to add that the equipment and wiring contribute to how great it's going to sound, too.

quote:
Personally, I think there is a huge difference.

All it means is that you haven't heard really good SR yet. You're in the same boat as hundreds of thousands of people. The delicate nature of the A-Chain alignment created the market DTS players: They are a snap to install.

Something else: I often wonder if the majority of digital houses are even getting their A-Chain checked out anymore. This might be why there is such a vastly noticeable difference between whenever digital kicks in or out.

I will agree that digital-done-right "sounds better" than analog-done-right, but the difference in quality isn't as great as most have been led to believe.

~Manny (Rated R. Starts Friday in select cities.)

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-05-2002, 11:40 AM:

Deleted by Manny. Previous post got lost and then magically re-appeared.

"There can be miracles, when you believe..."
from The Prince of Egypt

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 10-05-2002, 12:10 PM:

I'll agree, it is certainly possible to have SR sound as good as digital. We had a print of Titanic when our new theater opened in May of 98. It came with no DTS discs and the SRD and SDDS tracks were unusable, so we played it in SR. Our district manager sat in on a show and wanted to know what digital format we were playing it in. When we told him it was just SR, he was blown away!

At that theater, it wasn't a problem if the trailers were in digital and the feature in analog or vice-versa, but at an older theater I worked at, there was a HUGE difference. (given the older theater did not have Dolby, but rather RGM systems.) In that case, it was distracting to hear some trailers in digital, some in analog, and the feature in either-or. Any time we had digital trailers with an analog feature, someone would always complain that the "surround sound/digital sound just stopped working."

Steve's suggestion about programming the trailers in an arc to end with the most subtle is great. This would also be good if the feature was in digital, but it was a subtle/quiet movie.

When we had a mix of analog/digital trailers (the older theater only had a DTS unit) I would try and program the analog ones at the beginning, just after the rolling stock. That way, the sound would "progress" into digital.

Brad -- I'm confused. If the movie is in mono (like a Woody Allen movie), how would the "wow factor" kick in with the surrounds, sub and digital when the feature presentation begins? If I came into an auditorium and the sound for the trailers was only coming out of the front speakers, I would become concerned and go ask if anything was wrong. To me, the "wow factor" would be an indication that they fixed the problem.

=TMP=

Posted by David Graham Rose (Member # 1450) on 10-05-2002, 12:44 PM:

I always include a Dolby Digital trailer in the ads and trailers in order to advertise the theatre's sound system, regardless of the sound format of the main feature.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-05-2002, 01:11 PM:

Oh dear heavens! No! No no no no no.

The snipe should match the feature, IMHO.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 10-05-2002, 01:22 PM:

Ok here goes ...

Dolby Digital Logo's should opnly be played before and if the feature is indeed in Dolby Digital. These are intended to announce the film is in Digital not that the theatre has Digital capability.
In the same way you only run a DTS or SDDS title before and if the film is being played in either of those formats.

THX logos are there to announce you are in a THX cinema. it does not imply Digital / SR / DTS or SDDS just that the cinema you are sitting in is THX certified, you could follow it with the relevent logo if you wanted to.

At no time have I suggested that trailers should be run too loud... just that the level is realistic and not turned down below that level as is implied in some of the replies. Adverts and Trailers are an important part of the 'Show' and an important source of revenue. They all deserve to be played equally...... in my opinion!

With that off my chest I'm off of a very large G & T!!

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-05-2002, 01:54 PM:

Manny,
I was referring to analogue playback under conditions with premium well-aligned equipment and I still think digital sounds much better. It is true that most theaters neglect a-chain alignment and maintenance, but not wherever I work. On the other hand, many theaters are not properly equipped to play digital sound. In the discussion you started about clipping, I wrote a post about dynamic compression and distortion which deals with the subject. I wonder if anyone has read it because it is quite long and theoretical...
SR can sound very good, but in direct comparison to my ears there is a big difference in tone colour, tone "body" and spaciousness as well as dynamics between SR and any of the digital formats, even Dolby Digital.
Thomas, you may be right about the dialogue portions of "Titanic", but you can`t possibly be referring to the scenes where the ship starts to moan and break apart? That sounds much more dramatic with the digital LFE channel. It is quite fresh in my memory because we used to watch portions of "Titanic" as a test reel during the last installation I took part in.
Michael

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-05-2002, 02:06 PM:

quote:
On the other hand, many theaters are not properly equipped to play digital sound. In the discussion you started about clipping, I wrote a post about dynamic compression and distortion which deals with the subject. I wonder if anyone has read it because it is quite long and theoretical...

Yes. Thanks for the post. I certainly did read it. However, it doesn't do anything to sway my findings in this area.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 10-05-2002, 03:33 PM:

Not a single 1 of Cinemark 17's houses here sounds even remotely close to digital when playing in SR. They have no dynamic range, no bass, and many of them suffer from spitting dialog. Regal Cinema World 8's SR is usually WAY better.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-05-2002, 04:09 PM:

Ah, but is it real Dolby SR or Cat.222SR/A pseudo SR or Brand X SR emulation?

(Steve G.: Ha! Beat ya!)

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-05-2002, 06:07 PM:

I've recently been able to get great sound with the 222SR/A (aka "Dolby Lite") in the CP-45s. It took a lot of itty bitty tweaks -- I spent the better part of a day doing just one -- but the result was well worth it.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 10-06-2002, 01:22 AM:

Sorry, I've been away for the day, and missing out on my own thread! Anyway, trailer PLACEMENT shouldn't be at issue since I doubt anyone here would program xXx in front of Lilo & Stitch for example. Trailer VOLUME is an issue, but only to the extent of the additional dynamic headroom afforded by the digital format. The fader setting is not the issue, the dynamic range is --- when we're talking volume. People often equate digital sound with louder sound, and that's only half true. The louds are indeed louder, but the quiets are also quieter. We could discuss our favorite sound format and why if we want to, but for this discussion, we should stick to what happens when we switch from one format to another, and what defines a good switch and a bad switch.

A good one would be one that either a) the audience doesn't notice, because it sounds almost identical to the last thing they heard, or b) the audience does notice, because it sounds BETTER (not necessarily louder) than the last thing they heard.

A bad one would be one that sounds WORSE than the last thing heard, AND it's an unexpected transition. In other words, if you're going to see Gone With The Wind, and the movie sounds worse than the LOTR trailer in front of it, that's ok because it should be an expected transition into the lower sound quality that goes with movies of that era. But, if you're going to see The Four Feathers, and THAT sounds worse than the LOTR trailer in front of it, that is unexpected and therefor a BAD switch.

That's what I think I'm trying to say. Does anyone disagree with any part of that logic? I do appreciate everyone's point of view here either way. This has been a very interesting discussion with lots of excellent points made. It's really made me think about my position on this.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-06-2002, 10:54 AM:

I understand the logic it's just that I don't think I agree with it. You are wanting to degrade slightly (very slightly if you have good analog playback but degrade none the less) the LOTR trailer's sound and my reaction to that is to point out that given that the trailer is giving snippets of the movie. It is in effect a demo, a short test drive if you will. With that in mind I say give them as close as possible to the actual experience (given that the picture format may not be the same and often trailers, working off dupe footage, don't look that great). If the transition to the feature somehow makes the feature sound worse and the intervening feature presentation strip doesn't provide enough of a bumper then program another trailer in between that is more subdued. OK, I am starting to repeat myself here.

Frankly, I don't think there is anything wrong with such a transition if the feature in question is more subdued simply because that's the kind of film it is. People aren't stupid; they have different expectations from a big adventure film than they do a thoughtful drama. If for whatever reason the LOTR trailer runs just ahead of Gossford Park people understand the differences. I think your concerns are more valid when you have the big digital sound trailer ahead of a similar type of film which either doesn't have digital sound (rare) or only has a brand you don't have on that screen. I would still want the customer to hear how the upcoming film is going to play at this theatre should they choose to view it here--and protect from a jarring transition via the snipe or intervening trailer.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 10-07-2002, 08:24 AM:

Quote:
Frankly, I don't think there is anything wrong with such a transition if the feature in question is more subdued simply because that's the kind of film it is. People aren't stupid; they have different expectations from a big adventure film than they do a thoughtful drama. If for whatever reason the LOTR trailer runs just ahead of Gossford Park people understand the differences. I think your concerns are more valid when you have the big digital sound trailer ahead of a similar type of film which either doesn't have digital sound (rare) or only has a brand you don't have on that screen.

Yup, that's what I said, or tried to say. I think we can agree that beyond that, it appears to be a matter of taste and personal beliefs. But it always helps to understand why people do things the way they do them, and this topic has pointed out a clear split right down the middle of the participants, which is pretty interesting.

Thanks!