Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Cheap leader for platters

This is topic Cheap leader for platters in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 10-13-2002, 07:07 PM:

Hi everyone.

I saw on many images a blue or white leader with frameline to thread the projectors. Having a framed leader in front of the projection would be fantastic. But how much money does it costs?
Is it cheaper than black leader?

What do you use to thread your projectors?

Bye
Antonio

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 10-13-2002, 07:30 PM:

old trailers, -what else...?

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-13-2002, 09:00 PM:

We always use white, or clear leaders with image markings and a blackened sound track for commercial reels and features. At the end of the leader, there are 2.5 metres of black material with the start foil for the automation and then the sound trailer. The leaders are measured exactly and pre-assembled so that they work on each screen regardless of how long the film path from platter to projector and back is. So we don`t have to change them when we move a print between screens.
When a movie leaves the cinema, we take the leader of, roll it up and put it on the shelf. The shelf has different compartments for "Leaders without sound trailer", "Leader with Dolby Canyon/WS", "Leader with SDDS Volcano/CS" etc. When we make up a print, we check the aspect ratio and sound format, then decide which leader we will use, and splice it onto the first reel. It takes about 15 seconds to do that and also conserves the sound trailers because they are not spliced/cut off all the time.
The clear material is not cheap, but if you treat the leaders carefully, they will last a long time. You can always see the leader very well and with the black frame and sound track markings, it is practically impossible to thread the movie incorrectly.
Old trailers are less practical and also leave more dirt in the projector as the layers start to peel of.
Michael

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-13-2002, 11:15 PM:

Antonio, you may find these leaders available from many dealers, including some of those listed here in the Links section.

Here are a couple:
Cinema Products International
Cinema Products International Leaders (direct link)

American Cinema Equipment
American Cinema Equipment Leaders (direct link)

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-14-2002, 02:01 AM:

In this country, Jack Roe also sells clear, polyester spacing with frame lines and soundtrack position marked.

If money is an issue, one compromise would me to make up a platter leader which starts with, say, 20-30 feet of an old trailer, is followed by 10 feet of the above described spacing, and then goes into the head leader of the programme. The old trailer shedding in the projector wouldn't be an issue because you'd wind past it after lacing up the platter but before lacing the projector. You'd then lace the projector on the spacing which follows it.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 10-14-2002, 04:32 AM:

Per,

We actually use old trailers to thread a projector. But they're often confusing. We used an old part of Hannibal to thread a projector and in a moment of caos we start the show with hannibal....

The leader of the trailer are not always framed, and often I have to thread the projector with completely black leader.

We have 16 screen, it is hard to find out a lot of good leader.

Steve. 100' are 100 feet? 30 meters for 50$? Anything cheaper?

Bye
Antonio

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 10-14-2002, 06:07 AM:

Another source is FPC a division of Eastman Kodak if you like to buy rolls of 300 meter / 1000 feet minimum.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-14-2002, 06:07 AM:

Antonio,
it is because of those unhappy moments of chaos that I have always insisted on the blank leaders. Since the commercials and the feature start with blank material, it is no problem to see where the show is should the projector be stopped or should it fail to stop after the commercials. Even in the dark booth you can always see, blank film - aha, the leader, here is the black material, aha, this is where the feature starts and so on.
Once you have introduced such a system, you will never again want to wotk without it. But be careful: since the material is expensive, your leaders have to be treated very carefully. They should never be cut and always be put on the shelf when not in use or you will get confused and all the nice stuff will be gone in no time. And then go and explain to management why you wanted to buy it in the first place...
Michael

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-14-2002, 06:11 AM:

Also make sure which type of frame marking you want when you order. Usually you can get thin CS-type markings which I much prefer because you can see the aperture plate through it so you can see if the vertical adjustment is OK. There is also material with fat WS-type markings which I find less practical.
Michael

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 10-14-2002, 12:18 PM:

Antonio

Great show - Hopefully it was not the making of roasted brain in front of a Disney audience...

-I've experienced a timecode on this sort of "leader", turning on a completely different films dts discs... fun, too !

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-14-2002, 07:43 PM:

In the US, most platter houses use clear leader with blue framelines made by "NT Audio Visual"; it has a standard Academy countdown at the end. This usually costs about $1/foot, sometimes slightly less. Most people get the 35' or 50' length.

A cheaper alternative would be to get black or clear leader with framelines printed on (available from your local theatre supply dealer for about $.10-20/foot) and splice countdowns from old trailers onto the end.

[1m = approx. 3.3 feet]

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-14-2002, 08:11 PM:

Not that it would be worth the trouble but how hard would it be to wash the emulsion off scrap film?

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 10-14-2002, 10:30 PM:

Steve,

I used to do this. I would saok and old trailer in bleach over night then let it dry, then I would use a sharpie and draw framelined every 4 sprocket holes. It is cheap and not that hard but now adays id rather just pay for the good stuff

PS if someone tries make sure to mark which side is the "Soundtrack" side.

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 10-14-2002, 10:45 PM:

"We actually use old trailers to thread a projector. But they're often confusing. We used an old part of Hannibal to thread a projector and in a moment of caos we start the show with hannibal"

Yet annother pefect example of why show start queues are the desireable way to go.

Clear film with framelines should be available from your supplier for a fairly low cost. I also use a bit of black leader between the framing leader and the first trailer since I too am not blessed with start queues <how simple those things make life>.

The bit of old trailer at the very beginning is a great idea, as your framing leader won't get as damaged during threading, especially if you're a speed demon threading those rollers, when that part gets damaged, snip it off and replace with new old trailer material.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 10-15-2002, 04:44 AM:

Removing the emulsion from a print is a good idea but I should do for at least 32 different leader...

I would like to avoid completely old trailers they're too different each others and I would like to have the same situation for each projector.

Thinks that I've thread TWO times a projector with the soundtrack at the wrong side. I thought that I was becoming stupid, then I discovered that THAT projector had a TAIL to thread with the soundtrack on the wrong side.

Thanks for all suggestions, I'll ask our local supplier about clear w/frameline leader.

Bye
Antonio

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-16-2002, 09:17 PM:

Kodak's subsidiary FPC also sells projection leaders:
http://www.fpchollywood.com/film-leaders-editorial-leaders-projector-leaders.html

An overnight soak in a tub of dilute hypochlorite (laundry) bleach should dissolve the gelatin emulsion on old trailers. Rinse well with water and hang out to dry.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-16-2002, 11:17 PM:

Do you have to iron the film after it has dried

It has too be so much fun to sit down and draw those framelines. A cliché here is that people in Italy hang their laundry to dry outside between their balconies. I can`t help picturing Mr Marcheselli`s balcony with all those drying film strips next to his socks

Michael

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 10-17-2002, 08:26 AM:

Michael,

And then thread the projector with my socks instead of the rinsed leader...
It could work!

John,
Thanks for the help on how to remove the emulsion but I think that it will be hard to make thousand and thousand of frameline on feet and feed of clear print! More, every time I used a black pen on the print I had what I wrote transferred on other part of the print.

I would like to founs the cheaper solution to have a framed leader to thread (non necessary a black leader, the cheaper one!) plus the START cue with a little piece of HQ black leader when the projector start projecting.
Since I need at least 20 different leader to thread, it will result in thousand of feet of frame of leader!

Why don't use virgin stock of print previously framed with some projections? How much a virgin stock of print could costs?

Bye
Antonio

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-17-2002, 08:16 PM:

Kodak VISION Color Print Film has a US catalog price of less than 10 cents per foot ($0.10 US) for the unexposed 35mm raw stock. To get an image on it (even just framelines), you need to print and process it:
http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/catalog/colorPrint.pdf
http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/catalog/quick.pdf

Posted by Alex Grasic (Member # 1371) on 10-18-2002, 02:29 AM:

Rich, where could I get my hands on the 1000' reel of clear leader? How much would that set me back?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-18-2002, 02:31 AM:

John, actually you forget about buying reversal filmstock and running it through a projector with a high wattage lamp behind it and a 1.85 aperture. It's worked just fine for me.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 10-18-2002, 06:30 AM:

Brad,

Reversal filmstock?

We used a reel of virgin print framed with a 4000W lamp. But sometimes that print has been spliced upside down and now when it is projected I have a soft 24Hz "hum" in the auditorium!!

Is there a way to "fix" the frame made with a lamp? I'm afraid that in few weeks/months, for projectionists mistakes, the leader will be completely unframed!!

Bye
Antonio

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-18-2002, 01:31 PM:

If you are trying to get physical development (no processing needed) to form the frameline images by running it though a lit projector, a good film to use is 35mm KODAK Black-and-White Print Film (ESTAR Base) SO-302:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/lab/so302.shtml

The intense light of the projector lamp will cause the silver halide to darken in the image area. As noted, eventually all the film will darken as it is exposed to light, especially if run multiple times at different framing positions.

To preserve the image, you would need to run the film through a fixer (hypo) to remove the silver halide that hasn't darkened to silver.