This is topic Brenkert lense holder issue in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004127
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 10-21-2002, 10:49 PM:
My Brenkert came into today and this lenses holder assembly was on it.
What the hell is this? I have two B-L Super Cinephor lenses that I thought was standard and this assembly looks like it holds lenses at least 2 inches bigger.
I would like to replace this with the correct one if somebody has one they can let go of.
Also need the top film guide that mounts between the feed magazine and the BX80 head.
I am in pretty dire need of these items.
------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 10-21-2002, 11:16 PM:
Looks like a retrofit lens holder for 4" diameter lenses. Probably pulled off of a BX-100 machine. You need RCA part number 148053 Lens Adapter, 4" to Standard Lens in order to use regular diameter lenses in it.Your other part you mentioned is # P-1172 Film Valve Assembly (upper firetrap roller unit). If you use large reel arms this assembly is usually not needed as the large reel arm comes with a guide roller at the bottom of the arm.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-21-2002, 11:17 PM:
Someone has modified this machine to accept lenses of larger diameters. This was frequently done on Super Simplex's, and even regular Simplex's in past years. Brenkert also made a 4" lens mount machine called the BX-100 as well. I've worked with those machines extensively but this looks different to me. Am curious how this machine was advertised to you? Do you think the seller mis-represented it?
The main frame looks like it could all be re-assembled but I'd need to see more of the front of the casting without this kludge on it to let you know if its still possible to put her back right. It looks like part of the front has also been machined away for this mod.
Mark @ CLACO
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 10-22-2002, 08:04 AM:
Here is two more pics with the assembly removed.
I may not have asked enough questions as the guy I bought this from was supposed to be reputable so anyway, whats done is done.
Surely one of you guys has the spare parts that I would need to correct this thing.
Anyway here are the photos.
As far as the roller assembly goes I would like to get one so someone dig up one of those as well for me.
Thanks.
------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-22-2002, 03:09 PM:
Sam, that machine looks in very rough condition. It might be advisable to find another complete machine. That shouldn't be too difficult to do.... 
Finding parts you need for yours may cost more than the machine is worth. 
Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 10-22-2002, 04:21 PM:
Sam,
It looks like an aftermarket 4" lens adaptor. Huff and other companies made these to fit most machines with minor machine work. Lots of these were sold and installed in the 50's. As Mark stated I have a Standard Simplex with one installed which looks simular to yours. If you replace it with a normal small lens holder the cutout for the 4" one will still show. For now it would be easier to get a 4" lens adaptor for your lens and just use the projector unitll you can find a better one. Lots of them around.
Dick
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 10-22-2002, 04:23 PM:
That really bums me out.
The thing is actually pretty clean, that camera shot doesn't do it justice. The only problem that I see with it is the shutters seem to be a little noisy, kinda like something jumping around and it goes away if you remove the blades. The blades had been rubbing the shroud but I straightened them out so I dont know. I feel no play in the shafts so I dont know if that is normal to be noisy or not.
------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-22-2002, 05:29 PM:
Sam, I might have an old lens holded laying in my junk somewhere. Seems I saw one sometime ago laying at the bottom of my storage shed. Next time I go in there, I'll look for it. If it is still there, I'll send it to you.
Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 10-22-2002, 07:36 PM:
Sam, I have a BX80 that was in worse shape than that one when I got it. Mine looked like it had been stored in a cesspool for twenty years, set on fire then coated with grease. By the time I tore it down, cleaned it and painted it, it looked like a new machine. Mechanically, it was beautiful. It just LOOKED awful. I have a BX60 with a 4" lens mount on it and it's even better than the original Brenkert mount. Just go ahead and leave it and get a collar for the lenses...no big deal. The shutter shouldn't make any noise at all. What kind of noise is it making? If the blades aren't bent, then it may be a bearing. I've got a regular old Brenkert lens mount somewhere and I'll look around to see if I can find it for you.
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 10-22-2002, 08:10 PM:
Hey John,
Its hard to descibe but it could be the bearing.
I will say this, If you turn the motor over by hand its real easy to turn then all of a sudden it feels like it is binding. I looked real careful at all the gears and they all look like there ok except for the planetary gear that feeds the fan shaft. A problem that I just ran across is that I have no breakdown or really good service manual on this thing. I thought about pulling the rear collar off and checking the bearings and also the drive gears for the fan shafts but I just dont know if I'm ready for that yet.Another question, on the soundhead takeup shaft when running bobs in and out just a little and that just isn't good for the constant speed sprocket. According to the manual I am not missing anything or misplaced any parts inside the soundhead gearbox. I think that whatever is causing the projector to bind is making it do that.
Anyway what shall I look for that may be binding? Oh and also the travel ghost comes and goes on this thing as well. Shutter timing maybe? In other words during brite scenes or credits there is a travel ghost on the top of the words and the bottom and it goes away then comes back. I think this is related to the binding issue.
Anyway, I dont think its major but it certainly needs attention.
Thanks for the expert advise.
------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 10-22-2002, 09:24 PM:
Check to make sure that the rod which connects the framing knob to the intermittent assembly is properly attached. It's easy to overlook this when you replace the intermittent and when it's not right, ghosting will come and go as you described. The fan assembly is another possible source of problems. Be sure that the counterweights are not hitting the inside of the gear cover when they open up. That whole thing rotates pretty fast, and if a bearing is worn, it will run for a while, then bind a bit and "chatter" or make a noise, then run smoothe and repeat the whole cycle again...it's a vibration that is unique. It will put a drag on the whole machine when it happens. To pull the unit you have to open up the film trap and take out the fire shutter, since the push rod in the center of the fan operates that part. Sometimes the fan needs to be reseated. If it rubs against the inside of the casing it makes an awful noise that sounds like the machine is tearing itself apart.
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 10-22-2002, 10:36 PM:
Thanks Paul,
If you have one I would be glad to pay for it.
I think I will go back into the thing tomorrow, maybe.------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 10-22-2002, 11:16 PM:
Hey John,
Just reread your post and yes my blades are bent. They seem to have been used on a lamphouse without a dowser because both blades have burn marks on them which stressed the metal and thus warped them. I wonder if they are like out of balance or just too wobbly?
That would explain why it is silent when the blades are removed.
Anyway I did straighten then and I hadn't noticed much of a difference. As far as the framer goes, this one uses the chain which is pretty loose. Anyway thats enough for now.
keep up the advice as I am going thruough quite a learning curve right now.
Thanks!------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-22-2002, 11:28 PM:
Sam, this might sound stupid, but if the projector is making a "Munching" sound, check the main drive. See if it is running off-center. If it is, there is a strong possibility that the safety sheer key is ready to fail. The slight binding ricocets through the projector gear train, and it'll give shutter bounce, (or pulsating travel ghost if the shutter shafts are sloppy) and all kinds of other weird indications. Lots of people forget the sheer key is there....until it fails.. 
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 10-22-2002, 11:48 PM:
Now that you mention it they are not quite centered when the unit is off. I set it up so that when its running it centers itself.
But heres the deal with that, the gear assembly I have has the following pieces to it, starting from oil cap to end:
Shaft, washer, bearing, washer, gear (marked Simplex, black plastic), shaft. How many washers are there supposed to be and should there be one between the inside gear and the frame of the BX housing?
Now, on the 9030, could you describe the parts in order from retaining clip all the way thruogh to constant speed sprocket.
I have checked the PDF file on a 9030 thats on this forums manual section and as far as I can tell everything is there. When the projector is running the soundhead drive gear will move in and out about 1/8" . As far as adjusted the gear mesh what is the proper proceedure?
Anyway, thanks for the help so far. ------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-22-2002, 11:50 PM:
Sam,
If you are serious about restoring the head annd making it right then you should go ahead and just tear it down completely. At least to the point that you can feel all the rotating shafts in their bearings. Also, the bronze splines in the framing assy are very prone to getting sloppy. Sometimes replacing those is the only choice. New splines makes framing them really nice and tight. Another thing to point out that is VERY important is the fibre cone gear in the shutter drive assy. This is a failure prone gear if thigs are not set up properly. There is a replacement through Wolk for these but the quality of the fibre is questionable and sometimes they don't last too long even when new. If you have a head that has an original gear it should be preserved till you have the machine running and setup correctly. Its easy to tell an original as they were made from a dark reddish brown phenolic and the new replacement gears are a much lighter in color and have a very corse weave in the fibre material used to make the phenolic. Not trying to confuse you here but the original Brenkert fibre gear will last for ever if the rest of the machine is in good shape. Also, the BX-80 manual here on Film-Tech has step by step instructions for removal of any assembly. This is in case you are a bit nervous about just tearing into it. Its a complex machine but if you read, and re-read the manual over several times you'll learn it faster than you think. Another point that is important is that not many of the steel parts in a Brenkert are hardened like the parts in a Century, or Simplex. So if a shaft is stuck don't beat on it with a hammer and drift punch! Carefuly use an arbor press. Same for the intermittent parts with the exception of the sprocket. It is hardened. Be careful and don't force anything!!!!!
Mark @ CLACO
Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 10-23-2002, 01:05 AM:
Sam,
You mention the black soundhead drive gear said Simplex. That sounds like it might be the wrong gear if you are using a Brenkert to a RCA 9030. That will make a noise because the gear pitch is different than the 9030. Normally a RCA drive gear is red phenolic and never says Simplex. The oil slingers have different a thickness on a 9030 and they must be in the right position. I think there are 3 types on that model also a spacer inside next to the bronze gear that must be there. Correct gear woulb be first guess. Good luck.
Dick
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-23-2002, 01:13 AM:
If you completely tear it down like Mark suggests, Don't dismount the shuttershaft bracket from the projector casting.You could spend hours trying to get that thing set up right when you re-install it. (Personally, I never was successful in doing that where it runs true and free without the rear shaft binding on the front shaft and dragging it along with it. That'll raise hell with the bevel gear which cannot handle much of a driving load.) If there is a trick to it, I never learned that trick. The 48-tooth bevel gear the BX-80 uses does not like that kind of a load. The BX-100 uses a 40-tooth bevel, and is much more forgiving.
Also, you said:
quote:
But heres the deal with that, the gear assembly I have has the following pieces to it, starting from oil cap to end:
Shaft, washer, bearing, washer, gear (marked Simplex, black plastic), shaft. How many washers are there supposed to be and should there be one between the inside gear and the frame of the BX housing?
Yes...there is a thin steel spacer that goes between the end of the pinion gear and the BX housing. It is there to prevent the thrust from chewing up the BX housing, since it is cast aluminum.
The rest sounds OK - but Dick raised a question about the gear itself, and he is absolutely correct. Now I raise the question if there may be a Simplex pinion installed....and if there is, there could be a problem although it would probably run. However, it will cause major damage to the double-faced intermediate gear in the process over a short period of time. That double faced gear is very expensive! The Brenkert pinion is massive, but the Simplex pinion is, at best, "Whimpy!"
Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 10-23-2002, 07:15 AM:
Sam, like John was saying these things can look pretty nasty. But once you get it running to your satisfaction, disassemble the flim side and take everything out and paint the parts. Also strip the door shutter guards, etc. and repaint...it will look like a million bucks when you're done. 
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 10-23-2002, 08:56 PM:
Looks great Jeff.
I guess I am going to stick with the 4 " lens mount and just pick up a couple of adapters. As far as the shutter issue goes, I tore into the thing this afternoon and checked the gears. I found the large bevel gear looks original and the teeth look good on the thing as well as two shutter bevel gears that connect to it. I could find no play in either shaft. I felt no binding or anything that would indicate a problem. However I did find the top feed sprocket was rubbing against the stripper to the point that it was leaving a mark on the sprocket. Straightened that out easily enough. Moved the cooling fan out just a little. The unit sounds pretty good now except for the simplex drive gear. That thing whines. Tried adjusted the head forward and backward to eliminate it but I can only minimize it. ------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 10-23-2002, 11:05 PM:
Sam,
Due to the pitch differance the Simplex drive gear will always whine. Untill the Simplex gear just gets worn down many months or years from now you will never get the noise out. It will quiet down when you get the correct RCA gear for it. It's just the reverse. The large soundhead fiber drive gear is what is different not the pinion gear.
Dick
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 10-23-2002, 11:12 PM:
According to the manual the large gear that connects to the soundhead is the same for almost all projectors but the inside pinion gear is different which is what you guys where saying. Gonna try and get one of them. $$$$$$
The drive gear on the sound gear still moves in and out so I guess I am going to have to check into that again as well.
According to the manual there are three different types of oil deflectors on the 9030 sound head with there being four on the unit. Two of them are the same part number and the other two are different.
How the hell would I determine the difference other than replacing all. $$$$$
And finally, my lenses are super cinephors and one is marked SERIES III and measures 2 3/4" in diameter. Is the 4" lense called series 1?
When I ask for an adapter what do I ask for exactly?
Series 1 to Series 3 adapter?
------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 10-25-2002, 06:39 AM:
It's the big fibre drive gear on the outside that's making the whine. Just tell 'em you need a fibre drive gear for a Brenkert. The part number is listed in the manual. The 4" adaptors are made for standard sized (70.6mm?)lenses. If you've got a wierd lens that's smaller, like a Holmes lens, wrap it in something before putting it in the adaptor.
Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 10-25-2002, 06:54 AM:
"The drive gear on the sound gear still moves in and out so I guess I am going to have to check into that again as well." Sam, if this is the drive shaft into the projector head, there's a set screw on rear of the head that holds the drive shaft in place. (ref Brenkert BX 40/80 manual) It needs tightened.
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 10-25-2002, 07:46 AM:
Hey Jeff,
Its the soundhead constant speed shaft that is going in and out. Plays havoc with the pad roller.
Anyway, I guess maybe I sould have just bought a new christy or something 
------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-25-2002, 03:01 PM:
Sam, if you are experiencing lateral thrusts of the CS shaft, the gearbox spacers, springs, and all that happy BS is not properly assembled.
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 10-25-2002, 03:38 PM:
Thats what I figure.
I think I located the noise in the BX80.
I removed the intermittant and all the gears except for the bottom drive gears and started putting them in one by and the noise came back when I installed the intermittant. The shutter assembly was quite as a mouse before I installed the intermittant.
At this point I guess I am just going to keep running it till it dies or replace/repair the intermittant or the whole unit.
As far as the original post subject goes I have decided to leave the 4" holder in place and just pick up a couple of adapters.
On the subject of the intermittant, is there anything I can do or look for? What about rebuilding it? I am really bummed out on this.
Thanks!------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-25-2002, 05:23 PM:
Sam, don't get too bummed out about this. When you get it running, you'll be proud of that machine.Check the fiber/steal tooth gear in the compensator assy. I have seen some chewed up from time to time, and that will cause some problems. I would suggest looking for a parts machine. They are fairly cheap and easy to come by....there are still plenty of them laying around in old theatre basements.
As far as the movement is concerned, how does it roll through by hand? Is there a binding in it?
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 10-25-2002, 07:29 PM:
As far as binding goes I havent been able to make it bind and with it out it rolls noisy. Like bearings or something but the shafts are tight with no play in them. I looked at the star wheel closely and could see no damage or worn areas. I will be on the lookout for another machine for parts anyway.
------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-25-2002, 09:59 PM:
Couldn't be bearing noise, since there are no ball bearings in the Brenkert Movement. Only bushings. I would suspect the two gears.....just a thought.If you dismantle part of the movement, be very careful. There is a retainer plate on the cam and if the movement is pulled apart with the roller pin indexed in the starwheel, you'll bend the crap out of the retainer plate.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-25-2002, 10:45 PM:
Also, the later version of the spacers that go between the end of the projector drive pinion and the main casting were changed to a ball bearing thrust washer assy. These work alot better and create alot less friction than just plain old spacers. You can probably get this bearing and and thrust washers at a local bearing distributer. I guarantee you that the fibre drive gear is making the whine. While the RCA and Simplex gears may look similar the pitch is actually different. Don't remember how much but its enough to throw off the mesh a bit and make all that noise.
Mark @ CLACO
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-26-2002, 01:04 AM:
As far as the whine is concerned, loosen the four mounting screws that hold the adapter plate on the soundhead, start the projector, and try to twist the projector head one way or another to see if the whine diminishes. If the projector is cocked off one way or the other even as much as a fraction of a degree, it'll whine.Mark, I didn't know there was a ball bearing retro for the pinion gear. Cool....
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-26-2002, 09:12 AM:
Paul, its only a thrust bearing though, not a ball bearing to that goes on the shaft.
Mark @ CLACO
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-26-2002, 01:17 PM:
That's what I presumed. Probably something like the big thrust bearing used on the opposite end of the pinion.
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 10-28-2002, 11:00 PM:
Well, I should be getting the correct drive gear sometime next week.
As far as the intermittant goes, I say its noisy and all that but I have examined it on my workbench and I can find no binding, no loose shafts, the star wheel doesn't look worn, the gears look in good shape, perfectly square, no broken or worn teeth. The roller pin rolls ok, doesnt stick. Turning the flywheel with one finger I feel no binding. So the moral of this story is:
Leave it be, replace the drive gear with the correct one, and buy a spare projector.
I appreciate all the help from everyone and for Dicks great advise on the phone the other day.
Later.....
------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 11-01-2002, 02:31 PM:
The more or less finished project.
Note the RCA lamphouse.
The noise I've been complaining about was not the intermittant. It turned out to be the shutter shaft after all. I found where it had been "worked on" before and that there was some binding. Removed the whole assembly, cleaned, polished the mating surfaces and the shafts and cleaned the bores so to speak and reassembled. No binding, minimul noise.Also, I have been able to find another BX80 so I will have two soon. It still needs a paint job but I am going to wait a while for that.
Anyway, thanks for all the help. 
------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 11-01-2002, 04:07 PM:
Sam, how in the devil did you luck out on getting the shutter shaft bracket with its shafts running without slight binding or dragging the other shaft along with it when spun by hand without the bevel gear bracket installed? I was NEVER successful in that area. Please tell us your secret.
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 11-01-2002, 04:10 PM:
I am not sure about why there would be a problem but I made sure the mating surfaces was as clean as possible and I tightened all the mounting screws in stages, not just one all the way tight then the next but started from the center and tightened in a criss cross fashion. I wish I could have torqued them as I think that may be an issue. Also, I noticed the coupler ring was very touchy as to how it was tightened as well. I tightened the screws on that in a back and forth method and "felt" how the shaft felt after each turn.
I must say that after going through this thing it is very easy to work on and really appreciate the design.
I removed the oil pump and cleaned it out as well as replacing the neoprene hose. This increased the oil flow considerably.
Again, I don't understand why these things would be so temperamental as long as you don’t drop them or alter the mating surfaces.
Anyway, I am satisfied for the moment and thanks for all the advice so far.------------------
Samual Hunter Sr.
KC5ZSL
Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 11-02-2002, 06:07 AM:
Sam, looks great. Congrats on getting it running!