Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Any prints of Nosferatu around?

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Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 10-23-2002, 02:45 PM:

This is a long-shot. And I am talking about the 1920's version.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-23-2002, 03:35 PM:

Kino has it listed. Look under the Theatrical List for Nosferatu.
Look here

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 10-23-2002, 03:48 PM:

The Alloy Orchestra has been touring with a print of Nosferatu this year. It was a brand new print of the 1920's film. We did it in Telluride a year ago.
here

ALLOY ORCHESTRA
Contact: Ken Winokur
613 CAMBRIDGE STREET
CAMBRIDGE, MA 02141, USA
TEL: 617-497-6508, FAX: 617-876-5658

alloyorchestra@earthlink.net

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-23-2002, 06:28 PM:

Yest there is and no you can't have for halloween 'cos it's showing up here at the Macrobert Arts Centre, complete with orchestra accompaniement!

Micheal, are you equipped for showing silent film correctly?

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 10-23-2002, 06:59 PM:

quote:
Micheal, are you equipped for showing silent film correctly?

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 10-23-2002, 07:33 PM:

In silent film the area now occupied by the soundtrack was printed with picture information. So if you show a silent film with the 1.37 sound aperture, your image will appear off-center.

When showing silent film we use a silent aperture plate and have to shift the projector over to center the image. This is easy with either a Century projector with the lens offset or a Simplex base with the screw adjust. With all else it requires the use of a persuasion bar or your foot.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-23-2002, 07:58 PM:

Also, "proper" silent film exhibition requires variable-speed motors on the projectors, preferably with some sort of potentiometer to allow speed changes on the fly. It would also be helpful to have 3-bladed shutters for the projectors to reduce flicker when running at the slower speeds.

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 10-23-2002, 08:32 PM:

We have used our Simplex 35-70 at silent speed. We used a drill press motor to run the contraption through a pulley arrangement. It gave us a screen speed of 20 FPS in stead of 18. This allowed at least some oil to get to the movement. The oil spray is quite wousy at that RPM. The machine also has a lens offset for 70mm so that image was centered nicely. Didnt notice much flicker, and the frame rate meshed with video quite nicely

Josh

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 10-23-2002, 11:38 PM:

O.k forget Nosferatu then.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-24-2002, 04:46 AM:

It may well be easier to find a print of a film this age than one say ten years old.

Filing out aperture plates to the required size is no problem.

You will need a slightly longer lens than for Academy film, unless you can lift the top masking, to allow for the larger picture size. If you are using a separate anamorphic and backing lens for scope, then the backing lens on its own should be just right for silent. If you cannot do this, then you could probably borrow the lens(es) you need.

If possible, you need to move the lens optical axis to the centre line of the film. Some projectors, mainly dual guage 35/70 ones, allow you to do this easily; if you can find a lens of smaller diameter than the projector is designed to take, then you can turn up a spacing bush, bored off-centre. If you can't do either of these, then you can either move the projector slightly, to centre the image on the screen, or move the masking out on the left side, if you can move left and right separately. Neither of these methods is ideal, the optical axis of the lens will not be correct, but, in practice, the difference is small enough not to make much difference. As a last resort, you can set your masking so that the left is correct, which means that you will have a rough edge on the right side of the picture. This really is a last resort, and is not recommended. Whatever method you use, You may need to re-align the lamp to get even illumination across the whole frame area.

There is no such thing as silent speed, silent films could be intended to be shown at almost anything from 14 to 24 fps. Speeds tended to increase in later years. You really do need a variable speed; run the film at the speed that looks right on screen. On most projectors this is not too difficult to arrange.

A Three bladed shutter is useful, but is easier to do on some projectors than others. If you cannot do this, and you are running at a slow speed, try reducing the light output slightly, flicker is more noticable on a bright image than on a slightly dimmer one. You may need to reduce the light anyway, to avoid damage to the print; the reduced running speed, and the silver content of black and white film can both cause overheating of the print.

Make sure that there is nothing in the projector, or anything else the film passes through, sound heads, cleaners etc., which touches the film in the area between the normal frame, and the track area, and could cause scratches on a silent print.

Depending on where the print comes from, you may not be allowed to cut leaders, to run it on a tower or platter, in this case, you will have to use two machines.

Lastly, while it is most unlikely that an original print would turn up, when running a 35mm print of any old film, always make sure that it is not nitrate, unless you are fully equipped, and licenced, to run this.

Don't be put off running silent film, all of the issues can be resolved, but plan it well in advance and get everything right, don't put on a bad show.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-24-2002, 05:02 AM:

I've just finished an install which includes silent. The Century projectors have 3 phase motors, fed with invertors, thus the speed can be varied at will. A neat solution to the axis shift is to use lenses with a smaller barrel diameter, fitted in a eccentric sleeve. If you make the sleeve with the correct offset you're home and dry. Saves messing around adjusting lens holders or turrets, which then need to be put back for sound film.
You can use RP40 to align for silent, if you know how!

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-24-2002, 07:16 AM:

Turn it round after cutting one edge, in order to avoid cutting past the frame edge and into the perforation area.

Yes, vari-speed plus the right ratio plus a three-blade shutter are essential. The latter especially so, as Nosferatu should be shown at 16fps. With some two-blade shutters you can get away with speeds down to 18-19 with only a faint flicker, but for 16 forget it. If your 'scope prime lens detaches from the anamorph, it can be used for silent and the magnification will be very nearly right. The picture might bleed a bit at the top and bottom, but that's all.

The British Film Institute has two Nosferatu 35mm prints - one 1970s black-and-white one which is in Academy with a canned soundtrack (but is not stretch-printed, so it will look as it should do when shown at 16). The original intertitles have been replaced with English translations and there is no tinting. BUT, the advantage of that would be that you wouldn't need to faff about with a full-gate lens and plate or offsetting the centre.

The BFI also has a tinted and toned print of the Munich Filmmuseum restoration done by Martin Koerber in the early '90s, complete with original intertitles and artwork. However, the BFI will only let that print out to places they know and trust. They did also have a 16mm of the vandalised version but probably don't anymore (the BFI have all but stopped supporting 16mm).

If you want to speak to the BFI about it, contact Kathleen Dickson or Fleur Buckley on 020 7255 1444.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-24-2002, 08:44 AM:

You don't need to turn it Leo.

The true (silent) centre line lies smack between the 'T' and 'E' where it says SMPTE RP40. I just mark a centre on the bottom masking, set the shift to put the space between T and E on that centre, set the masking to 0.825" on the right, and as long as the masking is working correctly the left will fall into the right place. Cut plate to masking and the job is done.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-24-2002, 09:53 AM:

quote:
The BFI also has a tinted and toned print of the Munich Filmmuseum restoration done by Martin Koerber in the early '90s, complete with original intertitles and artwork. However, the BFI will only let that print out to places they know and trust. They did also have a 16mm of the vandalised version but probably don't anymore (the BFI have all but stopped supporting 16mm).

Leo, how many places are there that the BFI 'knows and trusts', are we talking about just a handful in the country? As a matter of interest, how does a cinema go about getting itself on the approved list?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-24-2002, 10:47 AM:

This can be a contentious issue. The bottom line is that the National Film and Television Archive's viewing service will respond to individual requests from cinemas based on (i) whether a title is available through normal, commercial channels, (ii) the ease with which copyright can be cleared, (iii) the intended use and (iv) technical specifications of the venue.

I can't speak for the BFI, but my experience of them is that they wouldn't send one of their better prints to a venue they hadn't dealt with before unless they knew at least one of the key personnel (by 'knew', I mean knew that they were able to look after films properly based on his or her past record) there and thus that their print would be looked after.

There is no formal 'approved list' (though some venues screen NFTVA prints as a matter of routine, e.g. the NFT, RFTs and certain festivals) and requests are considered on a case-by-case basis. The BFI does always insist that (i) their prints are shown in the correct ratio and, if applicable, sound format and (ii) the heads and tails of each reel are not removed, i.e. feature prints are only run using changeovers.

I know that many on this forum will argue that film can be handled perfectly well on platters. The BFI's thinking on this is twofold. Firstly, archive prints are likely to be shown only once or twice at each venue, so the repeated building up and packing off relative to the number of passes is likely to inflict wear and tear more quickly. Secondly, mis-thread a single reel and you've only damaged 2,000 feet or so. Mis-thread a platter roll and there goes the whole print.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-24-2002, 11:12 AM:

AFAIK, another reason archives favor changeover projection is they fear loss of a few frames each time leaders are removed for assembling large reels or putting the film on a platter. Wouldn't be surprised that if a new print was returned with splices at the leaders, the theatre would end up on the archive's

list.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
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Web site: here

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-24-2002, 03:43 PM:

UCLA archives will only let change-over houses use their films for screenings.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-24-2002, 03:55 PM:

What always kills me is that anytime I have ran an archival print, the leaders are only a few feet long. If these archive houses were really that serious about taking care of their films, they would add extra leader to the existing lab leaders. I have not seen an archive print that had a "do not cut leaders" policy that did not have substantial and what I would consider offensive wear at the changeovers.

Leader is cheap. There is no excuse.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-24-2002, 05:23 PM:

Brad,

You'll be happy to know the last time I ran an archival print at the Library of Congress (silent film) that there was something on the order of 3-miles of protective leader on each reel. Talk about a kid glove treatment. It took 2-days just to pull the print from storage so it could come up to ambiant temperture VERY slowly.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-24-2002, 05:28 PM:

Acclimitisation rooms are standard in the better equipped archives for bringing an element from the low temperature and humidity conditions which are optimal for long-term storage to the room temperature and humidity in which they'll be worked on gradually, in order to avoid condensation from forming and various other nasty side-effects.

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 10-25-2002, 05:34 PM:

As Leo mentioned there is a tinted print available and we showed it about a year ago.
Turning the RP-40 is simple way of ensuring the plate is cut correctly.
As when turned you have the printed on edge which normally indicates the right hand side of the screen, and thus checking you havent gone to far to the left on the plate.
Worked fine for myself and Leo when we did our plates many moons ago, but everyone has ther own way of doing these thing, I might give your way a try next time Pete.

Talking of Silent film ive got two showing this weekend, Chess Fever and The Amazing Adventures of Mr West, both with a live band playing.
They want 18FPS for Chess Fever and 24 for Mr West!? So im expecting to see lots of keystone cops type action in Mr West with it going a thrid to fast! Thre blade shutter is a must, and I installed it today.
Darren

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-25-2002, 07:36 PM:

Ever seen slow speed on a Kinoton "E" series projector? Spooky doesn't do it justice. The shutter doesn't slow down, just the projector. It is the brightest, flicker-free, silent you are likely to see.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-26-2002, 12:43 PM:

There doesn't seem to be any set rule for Russian silents - when archives have given me 'official' speeds they've varied between 16 (Fall of the Romanov Dynasty) to 24 (Turksib). When I've had to make a guess at it by eye I usually settled on 19 or 20.

I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. West was supposed to be quite fast, though. The film is a send-up of American slapstick and chase comedies from the mid-late teens, a kind of putting into practice the arguments Lev Kuleshov put forward in his famous essay 'Americanitis', which looked at why Soviet cinema audiences loved American films so much. Anyone who thinks that Soviet propagandists were incapable of humour is in for quite a surprise when they see this film! The American slapsticks were often deliberately shown faster than they were shot in order to heighten the comic effect.

Posted by Gunter Oehme (Member # 499) on 10-26-2002, 09:49 PM:

The Kinoton E series projectors might be a good solution for a cinema which unfrequently shows silent movies.
As an advantage there is no need for a 3 bladed shutter for flicker free slow speed and therefore the light output is pretty high.

But there is a downside of the Kinoton E at slow speed. The film is not transported at a constant speed anymore. The projector is duplicating frames to match the constant shutter speed.
Slow movements in the movies appear discontinuous (similiar to the 2/3 pulldown for 24 fps movies in NTSC television).
At certain film speeds I find this effect to be annoying.

For cinemas showing silent movies at a regular basis like archive cinemas I prefer the classical projector types with 3 bladed shutter.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-26-2002, 11:42 PM:

How many of the Kinoton's have you observed? The film is indeed moving at a continious rate. That is, the sprocket motor is moving at a constant speed...no ifs ands or buts. The only limitation that the "E" machine puts on the system is that the intermittent can not pull down whilst the shutter is not blocking the light. Kinoton also has the shutter act more like a 3-blade shutter when the speed drops below 20fps...you can hear it change speed and the appearance on the screen looks a little different.

I guess what you might not like is the relationship of the number of flashes (shutter dependant) to the number of fame updates (fps).

While the speed of the projector slows down, the number of flashes per frame goes up...the flicker is a constant one and rapid enough as to not be any worse than normal sound speed of 24 fps.

With a conventional set up...everything slows down together. It certainly is a different look and to some, perhaps, a more pleasing one. I, for one, prefer the look of the faster rate shutter. I can honestly say I have never had one single complaint about the look of the "E" series Kinoton running silent speeds and I have a bunch of them out there...in fact...most are simply awe-struck and have never seen silent look better.

Bear in mind, Kinoton, like other companies, updates their firmware to "improve" the operation of the projectors so perhaps there may have been a glitch in the version that was on your machine(s). I know I had one that when the speed was below 20fps, the shutter would loose sync. Apparantly, the firmware was updated and someone forgot to check all of the ramifications of the change.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"