This is topic Source for 11mm carbons? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 10-27-2002, 08:02 PM:
I have been asked for a source for 11mm carbons from a friend using Ashcrafts. He says he usually got carbons from Marble, who got them from Union Carbide. They have given him a "last call order" notice.Has anyone heard of this?
Also, I'm a little confused on the Union Carbide/Lorriane relationship. I thought Union Carbide bought Lorriane many years ago, then sold off the whole thing to a Japanese company in the early 1980's. Is that what happened?
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-27-2002, 08:56 PM:
Union carbide sold off alot to Societie du Carbone Lorraine
They also bought Morganite and Stackpole there big market is carbon brushesMarble makes carbon in Japan Double Eagle brand as does Ibagawwa under the brand Sunny
There is an Indian carbon company
here
and a chineese one called SeaGull
I don't know what happened to the Ringsdorf group that made Diamond carbons
As for National the projector division was closed down and it has lost all the people who knew what they were doing so it is iffy what they will produce
Posted by Glenda Cockrum (Member # 542) on 10-27-2002, 10:00 PM:
Well I received this on Oct.18th, National is closing down all carbon rod operations 
>Dear customer, National Electric caron Products has been in the carbon arc business since 1892. We were pioneers in the industry and we received an Oscar in 1956 for providing true "outdoor" lighting on an inside movie set. Arc carbon at one time, was onr of out highest output product lines with hundreds of customers and a growing stable market. As time has evolved, technology has changed the need for these products. We have seen steadily declining salesfor the last five years as the markets have moved to other technologies available.
As such, we will be discontinuing production for Carbon Arc at the end of 2002. We will accept orders up to December 31,2002. We are offering several options to meet your needs.<
The letter goes on to describe various plans for purchasing remaining stock,prices etc. So I guess it is time for me to bite the bullet and get some lamphouses! But I will miss the light of the arc.
If anyone needs a full copy of the letter feel free to e-mail me.
Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 10-27-2002, 10:13 PM:
Funny, but I just check National Specialty Products' website and it didn't mention anything about discontinuing Arc Carbons. Here is their email address if anyone wants to ask: NSP@mamat.com
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-28-2002, 02:02 AM:
In the UK, here supplies carbon rods. An arthouse cinema near me, the Tyneside in Newcastle, runs carbons in both its screens and AFAIK has never had a problem getting hold of rods from Jack Roe.
Posted by Gordon Bachlund (Member # 124) on 10-28-2002, 05:10 PM:
Try here Steve Krams lists carbons, including 11mm, in his catalog. I have purchased carbons from Jack Roe without difficulty.
Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 10-28-2002, 08:00 PM:
Just a note for everyone:According to the City of Tucson, AZ, the EPA has put a nation-wide ban on the indoor use of carbons.
The Tucson Convention Center (Tucson Parks and Recreation) used to have some nice Strong Super Trooper Follow Spots that were removed because of this "ban". These units are now occosionally used for outdoor events. The City of Tucson "stage handlers and sound crews" are so well trained that they are using welding carbons in these units! They have no idea what projection carbons are...and those that they had on hand were pretty well beat up! I tried to tell the City of Tucson people that their info was incorrect, but of course you cant get anywhere when speaking with political boneheads. I also tried to speak with them about the correct operation of these units, and of course they are clueless.I also asked them to present me with the EPA regulation banning the use of carbons, and of course they were unable to do so. I have not checked the EPA regs...but I understand this "ban" to be nothing less than a well circulated rumor. Any comments anyone?
There is a local "art house cinema"...if one can even call it that. Anyhow, the owner of this "theater" managed to save a pair of Supers/SH1000s and Magnarcs from the Tucson "Temple of Music and Art". Those boneheads where clueless as to what this equipment is and were preparing to haul it all off to the dump. Anyhow, I offered to to the install for this "arthouse"...a 16mm "art house". The owner said that the City of Tucson would not permit him to run carbons indoors. This owner is one of the many boneheads that I spent much time consulting with...and was nothing less than a waste of time. I offered to get him some Xenon so that he could run 35mm...no response from the yutz.
Posted by Wes Hughes (Member # 981) on 10-28-2002, 10:05 PM:
they are probably speaking of burning carbons unvented indoors...which i have heard rumors is now illegal in some municipalities.does anyone use seagull carbons? i heard some first hand accounts about how much they sucked, but i have used them a bit in the past few months with no problems.
Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 10-29-2002, 06:27 PM:
Wes,I did try to explain to the City of Tucson about the need to vent both carbons and Xenon. Needless to say that I got no where with these boneheads. They insist that the indoor use of carbons has been banned by the E.P.A. period and end of sentence!
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-30-2002, 02:03 AM:
...but presumably using unvented xenons in a lightweight, thin sheet metal lamphouse which were installed by someone wearing nothing more than a t-shirt and shorts is just fine!Back in my student days we showed a rereleased new print of The Big Sleep. About two days before the show I got a call from the University's health and safety officer telling me that 'old cinema films' were a fire risk and that we couldn't show it. I patiently explained that this was a copy on modern, non-inflammable stock and that nitrate prints have not gone anywhere near any cinemas for almost half a century (apart from one or two specially licensed ones). But he wouldn't believe me, and in the end it took a 'phone call from the distributor to get him off my back.
Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 10-30-2002, 07:15 AM:
Murphy's Law No 695 (sounds like a nice number) dictates that where ever technology exists there will be an over-abundance of technology illiterate boneheads. Evolution suggests you have two alternatives, fight or flight. If you fight, you take on the establishment and risk losing your credibility and your livelihood (because the establishment is bigger and stronger than you are). If you choose flight, you go out and buy a new lamphouse and everybody is happy (except maybe your bank manager, but have you ever seen him happy anyway?).
------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-30-2002, 08:28 AM:
True, but no way was I going to let some anal moron keep Bogie & Bacall off my screen, so the only option in this case was to fight!
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-30-2002, 01:44 PM:
Kodak still gets regular requests to provide documentation that today's prints are made on SAFETY FILM, and that Kodak discontinued making nitrate print film over 50 years ago:
here Nitrate Film Publication
here Storage and Handling of Nitrate Film
here Is Film Combustible?------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 10-31-2002, 02:50 PM:
I have a reprint of an old Monogram film laying around, on Kodak stock from 1950, clearly marked Safety Film on the edge, yet when I cut a small piece off for a burn test, it burned quite nicely. Is it or is it not Safety?/Mitchell
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-31-2002, 03:10 PM:
Mitchell, I can't imagine it being nitrate if it says safety. I've seen nitrate legends printed-through when later prints were struck onto safety-base stock, but not the other way around.Note, safety will burn, just slowly. Nitrate goes up in a big orange flame with a slight "whoosh" sound.
------------------
Better Projection Pays!
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-31-2002, 03:18 PM:
Nitrate will burn underwater; safety won't.(Kids, don't try this at home!)
Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 11-01-2002, 07:16 AM:
I've burned a few 2000' foot rolls of decomposing nitrate over the years (nothing rare). It is quite entertaining. I do not think the Monogram print in question is really nitrate, as water will put it out. It burns more like newspaper would burn. It just suprised me, because every other "safety" print I have experimented with stops burning after a few moments.Moving back to topic (almost), the non-profit Landmark Loews Jersey Theatre is always looking for donations of 13.6mm carbons, if anyone happens to find some laying around.
/Mitchell
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-01-2002, 08:43 AM:
I have seen many nitrate prints with a 'safety' edge mark. 'High acetyl' triacetate was introduced by Eastman Kodak in the autumn (fall) of 1948, but the manufacture of nitrate did not cease until February 1950. During that time the two bases were used interchangeably. In the camera negative - fine grain pos - dupe neg - print cycle of elements, it would only take one of those to be safety (assuming all the generations were duplicated using continuous contact printing) to introduce an edge mark onto the final print.Basically, if you can see any 'nitrate' edge marks on an element and the release print stock mark indicates the year of manufacture as being 1950 or earlier (and make sure you are looking at the stock mark of the release print stock, not an earlier generation), then assume it's nitrate until you've tested it.
I agree that this Monogram print is probably acetate, because acetate base has almost identical combustion characteristics to paper. If water will extinguish the fire, it certainly isn't nitrate.
Posted by Tom Doyle (Member # 1474) on 04-08-2003, 11:49 PM:
*bump*
So, does anyone here actually use 11mm carbons? I'd like to hear from someone who is satisfied with their supplier. I'm looking for a good source for 11mm pos and 11/32" neg.
Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 04-09-2003, 10:37 AM:
The Stanley theatre in Utica, NY, The Capitol theatre in Rome, NY and the Landmark (formerly Loew's State) in Syracuse all use 11mm positives and 3/8" negatives.
The Capitol has a show this Friday,April 11 of John Ford's "the Iron Horse" accompanied by Dennis James at the Moller pipe organ.
Posted by John Spooner (Member # 1565) on 04-09-2003, 12:56 PM:
Dear John. We have been using the Indian Schutz (Lumex) carbons for some time, importing them from India directly as the local cinema supplier no longer stocks carbons.
They are quite adequate for the purpose and burn well.
John Spooner.
Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 04-09-2003, 08:22 PM:
I've been missing the light and the smell of the carbons for 29 years now. Allready in '74 a smart salesman was on tour all over Denmark to tell us all, that quality carbons were extremly difficult to get "nowadays". He reccomended change to xenon asap. That was the same man who 10 years ago told me, that parts for as well DP70 as Bauer "B" series were out of stock.
AND that's the very same man, i have not been consulting for almost 9 years now.
-But this time it seems pretty serious. Another part of our trade passing by. Is that what they call development..?
p.
Posted by Tom Doyle (Member # 1474) on 04-09-2003, 09:24 PM:
Thanks for the responses. I'm actually looking for a source of NEW production 11mm and 11/32" carbons, rather than just buying up old remainders. If anyone can supply me with contact info for such a source, it would be greatly appreciated.
Robert, I'm glad to hear there are still some local theaters that use carbons. Do those NY theaters buy new stock? If so, from where?
John - I saw the Schutz website - they only list up to 9mm, so I ruled them out. What size(s) are you using?
Thanks in advance!
Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 04-10-2003, 09:33 AM:
Tom,
As far as I know all 3 theatres are using up carbons from old stock. None of them runs more than a few shows a year.
Posted by John Spooner (Member # 1565) on 04-10-2003, 10:27 AM:
Dear Tom, we run 7x8 in the carbon arc plants, interesting that Schutz do not list your required size. Maybe if your order was large enough they may run you off a batch, or supply 13mm carbons to order. We have found them ok to deal with.
Maybe an e-mail to them could be advantageous, would be interested in the results.
John S.
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-10-2003, 10:33 AM:
The Loew's Jersey were using existing stock last year. Bernie reckoned he had enough positives to keep him going for a couple of years, and more than that of negatives. I'll try to give my lungs a 'fix' of carbon fumes when I'm back there this month. I don't know if they bought any more, while they still could.
According the the Ashcraft manual, the carbons for these lamps were only made by National and Lorraine, an I believe that both have now ceased production.
Over here 'Morganite' and 'Ship' were the carbons which everyone used; niether have been made for years.
Marble Double Eagle are still available, but I don't know for how long.
I have heard rumors that production in China may stop soon. How long existing stocks may last is difficult to say. Other than very large ones, which are still in production in Ireland, photographic flashbulbs haven't been made for years, but there are still plenty of full cases of them available on Ebay, and I have over three thousand mainly smallish ones stashed away.
There are certainly cinemas which still have carbons in store that they haven't used for years. Maybe we need a scheme to introduce people with carbons they don't want to people who don't have carbons they do want. I don't know if National had much product in store when they ceased production. The supply is now wery limited, but a small stock of carbons can last a long time, if the demand is also small.
I hope there will still be somewhere using them for as long as I am around.
There have been reports of poor quality in carbons from India. I think this may really be the end of new production, at least of good carbons.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-10-2003, 11:47 AM:
So if 11mm carbons are getting hard to find, then what is the expectation for the future availability of 6mm, 7mmm, and 8mm carbons?
I've had no problems with 7mm and 8mm Eagle carbons from Marble (as recently as a few weeks ago), and I'd hate to see the last of the carbon houses convert.due to lack of availability.
(If anyone is really desperate for 6mm and 7mm Nationals--the old, good ones--I can provide them in small quantities. Let me know.)
Posted by Tom Doyle (Member # 1474) on 04-16-2003, 10:33 PM:
Apparently, Marble Double Eagles are still available in 11mm. It looks like carbons are not dead yet! I haven't tried contacting Schutz yet - hopefully the Double Eagles will work out.
Some other manufacturers were mentioned in this thread - Ibagawwa (Japanese) and SeaGull (Chinese). I also found mention in another thread of Daiichi Carbon Co (Japanese). Does anyone have the contact info for these, or any others? I don't really need to get in touch with them right now, but it'd be nice if someone could post it for everyone's benefit.
Thanks again!