This is topic CP650 issue? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 10-28-2002, 06:50 AM:
Hi everyoneYesterday a strange thing happened to one of our CP650 on a Minority report print.
Ushers called that the voices has disappeared. From the booth monitor I can heard an "echo" of the voices from all the channels, like the surrounds was connected to the LCR channels. The CP was regularly in format 10, no problems. I was going to bypass when I pushed format 5 to see if the problem was only for Digital decoding. The CP select again Format 10 (it is normal, auto digital!) and the problem was disappeared.
I don't know Cp650, I know CP500 and it has some strange problems sometimes, nothing to be warried.
Do you know if CP650 has some known problem or perhaps our unit is defective?
Ciao
Antonio
Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 10-28-2002, 07:22 AM:
Antonio it may be just one of those software bugs that seem to haunt digital equipment. I have heard a similar thing on a CP500 on the movie "South Park". Every so often the centre channel would drop in level and the left and right channels would start reproducing the dialogue at the same level as the centre but slightly delayed. Very annoying. It may have been that the unit was reverting to analog but the software was sending the analog to the left and right channels whilst still playing digital from the centre (or vice versa). I didn't have the opportunity to investigate it at the time.
------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-28-2002, 08:18 AM:
The problem is likely to have been a software hang-up in the ProLogic Decoder. As Ray described, the decoder is responsible for the channel routing. By selecting SR, you changed the decoder input source and so reset it. Those problems are very difficult to track, as you can`t reproduce them at will.
Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 10-28-2002, 08:56 AM:
Thanks for your replies.I worked for 4 years with two CP500 and I known that sometimes something strange would happen! Was normal! Just reset the unit and go on! Like the "SW" bar dancing with no sound...
Should I think the same thing with the 650 or not? Of course the unit will be serviced if it will happen again in the same screen.
Bye
Antonio
Posted by Wes Hughes (Member # 981) on 10-28-2002, 10:13 PM:
I have problems similar to this on occasion with some of my 650's. They usually take the form of extremely "tinny" sound, even in non-sync. Dialogue would sometimes be totally distorted. A reboot always fixed it. A software upgrade a few months ago almost solved the problem (only happened once in the last 5 months instead of once a month before the upgrade).
Posted by Don Sneed (Member # 955) on 10-29-2002, 09:53 AM:
I had a few of these Cp-650 lose it's memory, I had to to reinstall all the saved settings from a floppy disk I leave at the theatre after the install...two of these units work normal again after uploading the settings, one was so bad the theatre had to upload the settings every day, the memory would not keep it after turning off for the night, Lonnie at Dolby sent the new CP-650 software to install to correct the problem...all was ok after that, so there is a software issue in some of the older CP-650....
Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 10-29-2002, 11:30 AM:
Don,I knew about the memory loss of CP650. All of our CP has been upgraded when installed. I do not remember the software version right now.
Bye
Antonio
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-29-2002, 07:23 PM:
All that is probably not Dolby`s fault. I understand they use Motorola DSP chips, is that correct? What brand of memory? It may be that some of the components which are delivered by the manufacturers in batches were faulty. That doesn`t apply to the problems which were solved by the firmware upgrade, of course.
Antonio, I checked the Field Bulletins. There is no recent one about the CP650 which describes that problem.
Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 10-30-2002, 05:45 AM:
Thanks Michael for your help.No problem with Dolby, this is the first time we had problems with our 16 CP650 installed!
Bye
Antonio
Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 10-30-2002, 06:28 AM:
Michael, don't be so eagar to dismiss Dolby's blame in any malfunction of the CP650. As the guy who built the world's first serious microprocessor controlled cinema sound processor, I can assure you that 99.99999% of the time it is the software (or more correctly the "firmware") that is to blame. This is not to say that Dolby are lax or less than diligent in their attempts to produce a very high class product. The simple fact is that the DSP and microprocessor hardware from companies like Motorola is exceptionally reliable, in fact, considering the complexity of the wafer designs, remarkably reliable. Firmware hiccups WILL happen, it is just too much to ask that firmware be written perfectly every time. Be thankful that software engineers get it right MOST of the time. Given the massive potential for error in such a complex environment, that in itself is a miracle.------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-30-2002, 11:23 AM:
It may be a simplistic way to think, but since I am not a sound hardware designer myself, I arrived at this conclusion simply (or simplistically) by thinking, if the problem is in the firmware, why does it seem to affect only specific units?
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-30-2002, 11:50 AM:
If the problem is in the hardware itself, wouldn't it still be Dolby's fault for selling equipment made with substandard parts?(Note that I basically like Dolby products and I'm not trying to single them out. Any company which knowingly sells defective equipment should have the decency to admit the problem, apologize to its customers, and replace or repair the equipment.)
Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 10-30-2002, 08:07 PM:
Michael, if the same problem is occuring in more than one unit it would seem unlikely that a hardware fault is the cause. There is always the chance of a bad solder joint or faulty component on a printed circuit board, but usually faults of this type will be different for each faulty unit. In contrast, if the same problem is occurring over a number of units it suggests an error in the firmware. So why do all units not have this problem? Well you often have different versions of firmware in different units. Also bugs usually only show up under very specific circumstances, (which is why they are missed in the first place) usually when the processor is called on to do something unusual. Microprocessor and DSP processor chips are really very simple devices (only on grand scale) that either work or they don't. In my experience, any fault, however small, in such hardware will usually cause catastrophic results.------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935
Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 10-30-2002, 09:03 PM:
More, I believe that not all Dolby has the same card inside... There are many revision of components and perhaps a problem can be present with one particular revision...However, the sound issue is continuing (the only one on 16 CP), so we believe that our unit is defective.
A thought: it is Minority Report (EX) on non ex screen. Can be the EX bit causing some problems?
Bye
Antonio
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-01-2002, 09:49 AM:
I'm much more generalistic in my blame of things...If I am dealing with an entity (sound company) and a component inside their product fails...I don't care why it failed, I blame the company I'm dealing with. They got to choose what they used and how they implemented it...it is all on them. One problem I'm seeing within this industry are the dabblers...those companies that built their reputation on making a particular type of product but have decided to branch out to seem like more of a one-stop-shop...the problem is, their other products don't have the same quality as their old stand-bys.
One thing I have learned over some time...don't dabble into the digital realm...Digital almost always involves software and hardware and each requires very talented people to pull it off. More often than not, I'm disappointed with the results. Furthermore, it is flakey. With digital, things either work or they don't.
BTW...my specialy was always hardware.
Steve
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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-01-2002, 09:59 AM:
Steve, does that mean that you are a secret fan of SDDS? Yes, the old 2000 units had many flaws, but the 3000 is a very mature and reliable product which unites some of the best that Sony, one of the foremost companies in digital sound for more than 3 decades, has to offer? Or does do you on the contrary mean that you think they shouldn`t have made that excursion into the field of cinema sound?
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-01-2002, 12:51 PM:
Actually it means BOTH!Sony certainly showed that it had the upper hand on the Digital EQ and such over the others...however they did bring the Sony arrogance to the table too.
Sony also "dabbled" in the cinema market...the DCP-1000 came and went pretty fast.
The 3000 certainly has some very strong points going for it. But I have also witnessed where Sony updated their firmware on it and what used to work...didn't anymore....lost a DCinema show because of them and their sloppiness. The Sony arrogance also wouldn't allow them to use a common item in their penthouse (3000 series)...the flywheel...that which would have nixed many of their tracking issues...instead they have that magnetic clutch BS. Actually, DTS should have discovered the flywheel by now...it would put an end to the getting the tension and wrap just right stuff.
BTW...it is no secret, I have always preferred the 8-channel sound over the 5.1 offerings or EX.
Of the 3 digital companies out there...two sure seem to support their product more than one. In 10-years, I think the support of two companies will dramatically better than the one.
However, whenever you play with DSP and other VLSI digital stuff, you are playing with borrowed time...the life span of such chips (on the marketplace, not operating hours) is SHORT....even with early offerings from Dolby in the DA-10 and CP-500...the parts become obsolete.
While obsolescence in the analog world also can and does happen, it normally isn't as dramatic an impact..a sub is often available or an improvement can be had with minimal redesign.
Given the choice between high-end analog or digital...high-end analog wins everytime.
Steve
------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-04-2002, 01:22 PM:
Steve wrote: "Given the choice between high-end analog or digital...high-end analog wins everytime."Film = High-end analog. 
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-04-2002, 05:16 PM:
Actually I think the tracking of the 3000 reader is very good. The real problem with the SDDS format is that most labs don`t seem to be able to print the picture side track correctly. You can often see with the naked eye that the track is badly printed. I have been told that this is caused by the design of many printers and also sloppy lab practice such as allowing that side of the raw stock to be exposed to light before printing. I have seen SDDS tracks which were printed correctly and ran flawlessly after literally thousands of times (such as old SDDS logo trailers or demo reels).
Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 11-04-2002, 06:12 PM:
Coming back to the topic, our 650 unit is still causing troubles.Does Cp650 has an error log?
Bye
Antonio
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-04-2002, 06:55 PM:
Film definately is high-end analog! In fact, the Uptown's current showing of Lawrence of Arabia in 70mm reaffirms my position, that 70mm is the best format out there and is so much better than any Digital offering as to be embarrassing. Steve
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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-04-2002, 07:12 PM:
Sorry, Antonio! There is always a way to turn any topic into a Dolby vs. dts or vs. SDDS discussion. We all just can`t seem to to be able to resist!!
As has been very convincingly explained by Ray in his post, this problem is likely to be a firmware glitch. So you will have to live with it until Dolby come up with a solution. Maybe you could contact and tell them, no more holidays in Italy for them until they have solved the problem 
Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 11-05-2002, 02:43 AM:
Michael,I do no believe that it is a girmware issue. We have 16 CP650 and that one is the only one giving us troubles.
More, Minority Report was previously in other three screen with no problem.
Antonio
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-05-2002, 04:04 AM:
Well, I would change the ProLogic Decoder Card then (I don`t know much about the inner life of the CP650, but logic dictates it has to be there somehow). Take the card from another processor, preferably a really small screen or where you run a film that you really hate and consequentially you hate the people who see it so it doesn`t really matter if the CP runs amok Or if there is any regularity to the problem, you could play the card game on a morning before the first show.
The real problem with switching cards to find out which is faulty is that you have to switch off the unit to pull the card out. As restarting the unit alone makes the problem disappear for the time being, you don`t know if it was your reboot or the physical card which made the difference...
How old is the unit? If it is not too old, simply impose on your dealer to take the whole thing out.
Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 11-05-2002, 06:05 AM:
Michael,You hit the point: the CP is 1 month old! 
If it was my responsbility it was already replaced with a new one.
Bye
Antonio
Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 11-05-2002, 08:48 AM:
Antonio,I Had a problem with one of brand new CP650 installed at hte Rialto in Geneva: The sound was lost during the show, with a crowned auditorium :-< of course ! Sh.....t !
The only solution was to switch to bypass finish the show and exchange the CP650....
From this moment I keep ready a fine CP 65 with a wiring harness to replace a CP 650 in case of failure.....;-)
What is the operating software of your CP650? Check it, the most recent version that I know is the version 2.3.10.8 as the ultimate soft.
Good Luck !
------------------
Jean-Michel Grin - Europlex Cinemas (Switzerland)
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-05-2002, 11:20 AM:
Jean-Michel, what does the abbreviation sh....t in your post stand for? Showtime?
Antonio, if the unit is 1 month old, where is the problem to ask for a replacement? The installer/dealer should be able to solve the problem or replace the unit. I am sure your management will not be opposed to it if you remind them how much the unit cost. Surely you have equipment warranty? Or does your dealer belong to Berlusconi`s empire and he had the government just pass a new law which makes it illegal to return equipment sold by his company? Wouldn`t surprise me.
Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 11-05-2002, 02:15 PM:
PLEASE, keep aware the Politicians from this forum. It is completely Off Topic.The reason of why that unit is still at its place is that I'm not the technical manager. I do not know how it works in other multiplex, but in mine I can just make a suggestion... 
Bye
Antonio
Posted by Ted Costas (Member # 473) on 11-05-2002, 05:16 PM:
Hey Brad,I thought I had it in my contract that you'd give me a call whenever the Dolby bashing starts...
First of all, Dolby Rules.
Second of all, I am not an engineer. Allthough I play one on TV... Antonio, I'm going to have my CP650 guy contact you, or I could try and do a "John Pytlak" and answer the question myself: Hmmm, have you tried turning it off, then turning it back on again? (ha, ha).
Anybody ever needs any Dolby info, contact me, and I'll get the right person to contact you.
Yours, Ted
Ted Costas
Director
Dolby Distributor Services
Ted.Costas@Dolby.com
Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 11-05-2002, 05:28 PM:
Hi Ted!I forgot that you're now at Dolby!
Thanks for your help, I'll wait for a contact!
Bye
Antonio