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Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 10-28-2002, 09:31 PM:
O.K. I was looking around the theatre to see what stuff we have just lying around and I came up with this.
2 Simplex bases
2 SH-1000 Soundheads ( I believe they still have phototubes) Where the led's would be there is a glass tube.
many various reel arms and magazines
many rollers and failsafes
1 old automation. The most prominent feature I can remember on it is a dial that lets you select the reel number. The unit is gray and measures about 30" tall by 20" wide. It was removed about 15 years ago.I think I can get all the stuff we have working and have been making a mental list of what I should be on the lookout for. Here is what I think I need so far.
Simplex Picture Head
Lenses
Sound stuff (processor, amps)
Lamphouse
Power Supply
C/O
Can anyone think of anything else I need. Or have any suggestions for me. I dont think I'll be using the automation except maybe to hook the start button and C/O to. Also, any suggestions on the equipment. I have never worked with phototube sound before.. but have 2 sh 1000's running with led's at the theatre. just thought this might be a fun project instead of tossing this stuff.
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Adam Fraser
www.pinestheatre.com
Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 10-29-2002, 09:48 AM:
You're probably aware of this, Adam, but keep in mind that a phototube sound pickup can't be plugged into a conventional amp. The tube requires a 90v DC exciter voltage which has to come from somewhere, and which must be filtered out prior to hitting the preamp stage. Old theater amps provided this voltage and the proper input stage. Two suggestions: if you can't find the proper amp you can probably get by robbing the amp from an old 16mm projector with a phototube sound system, or just trash it and substitute photocell(s) and use a modern processor and amp(s).
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-29-2002, 10:11 AM:
Many of the old theatre sound amplifier schematics show how the phototube was powered. For example: here But unless you are trying to restore the soundhead to "classic" condition, converting to a solid state photocell is probably the best option, and the obvious choice if you want analog stereo.
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: here
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 10-29-2002, 10:18 AM:
Thanks,
Im sure I'll have many more questions if I can get a hold of the rest of the equipment. Maybe an exciter lamp would be the way to go unless I can find led's cheap. I'll have to see.
Posted by Geoffrey Weiss (Member # 882) on 10-29-2002, 10:24 AM:
I have two SH 1000 heads that I've converted using a photocell. I cut the top off the glass envelope and mounted the cell right onto the old tube. The leads go right onto the pins and I use the head's wiring to send the signal out on the original wires. Even if the electronics are not vintage, I'd like to keep it looking as original as possible so people can see movie technology as it was in the 1930s (I teach film classes and most people know nothing about the technology of movies.).It saves having to mess with a 90V supply. All the info. you need to do it is here on Film-Tech, but I'd be happy to take you through what I did step-by-step.
I didn't notice. Did you mention exciter supply?
On the general topic of "building a projector," I've got sound from the SH 1000s, but haven't got picture yet. Over the weekend I realized I could just use the 750W lamp (reflector & lens) from an old RCA 16mm projector somebody gave me. I'll let you know how that works.
BTW--I'm using two Simplex Regular heads (eventually hope to have both machines running and able to do changeovers), but I've seen plenty of Supers for sale on Ebay.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-29-2002, 11:56 AM:
Kelmar makes brackets and mono or stereo solar cells for SH-1000 soundheads. Used ones are probably available free or cheap from theatres that have converted to LED reverse scan systems. Exciter supplies should also be readily available.The easiest way to get sound out of a solar cell without a proper theatre processor is to wire the cell to an XLR connector and connect it to a standard microphone preamp or mixing console with built-in preamps.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-29-2002, 03:46 PM:
I have to agree with Scott. Just replace it with a Kelmar or Dolby split cell.
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 10-29-2002, 08:50 PM:
I'm gonna do some more digging and see if i can find our old pre-led sound parts. I'll keep ya guys posted. Again, thanks
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 10-31-2002, 09:00 PM:
Ok, I went digging some more. Here is a pic of the soundhead, it seems to be missing some kind of tube or lamp on the left.
Here is the automation
And here are the sound parts I found while digging around.
Just Kidding, Id be killed if those readers ended up in my projector project.
Any suggestions on the soundhead or what kind of automation that is?
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Adam Fraser here
Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 10-31-2002, 11:06 PM:
Hello, Adam,The "tube" you are missing in the left of your sound head is the "exciter lamp". That is an incandescent lamp with a precision filament located in line with the optical track. Inside the sound drum you can see the reflector which sends the light from the soundtrack back to a photoelectric cell. The large black cover prevents stray light from being "seen" by the photocell.
Automation?
Modern readers, look like your theatre in Michigan.
I don't think I would recommend borrowing any of the new stuff for your home project.
KEN
Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 11-01-2002, 12:13 AM:
The soundheads are worth around 500-1000 bucks if they have the stereo stuff in them and are in good condition. Josh
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-01-2002, 12:32 AM:
How can you build a projector without any DLP/DMD chips? 
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 11-01-2002, 10:04 AM:
Thanks for the advice, I think we might have some exciter lamps in the back room. I didnt know they were worth that much, we have 2 that have been in the storage room for 25 years along with a lot more stuff that has been decommissioned(sp?) or bought from theatres that went out of business. With a couple parts taken out of the other one for our projectors in normal use.------------------
Adam Fraser here
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 11-03-2002, 11:53 PM:
Have been looking around and I think that i will be getting a Super Simplex projector head. Also, I am in need of an exciter power source unless there is one packed away in the attic somewhere that I havent seen it. After talking to a few very nice people by email and phone I believe that I will be switching to a solar cell system... but I want to get the proj. head and soundhead together and on the pedestal before I get into that.Again, thanks everyone for the help.
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Adam Fraser
www.pinestheatre.com
Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 11-04-2002, 06:08 AM:
Any filtered DC power supply with correct voltage and current rating will power your exciter lamp. I does not need to be a special "exciter lamp supply".
Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 11-04-2002, 06:21 AM:
Exciter SupplyAt the Twilight Drive In we had a battery charger which was pretty well filtered. It was located in the generator room. It worked to keep the "jumper battery" charged and could be switched into the booth for emergency exciter use. The jumper battery was in a box so we could get cars started after the show.
KEN
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 11-04-2002, 09:10 AM:
How important is it that the current is exact? Reading the manual tells me that the bulb either a 9v 4a or a 10v 7.5a, I'll have to check next time I look at them which bulbs I have.
Posted by Bob Koch (Member # 1062) on 11-05-2002, 01:01 PM:
The Sh 100 was always supplied with a 9v 4 amp exciter lamp to be powered by their miserable PU 1000 with 2 side contact tungar bulbs and a ballast tube which was too slow to do the regulation it was supposed to. The 10 volt 7.5 amp lamp was used only in bottom of the line systems made by RCA and Simplex which had raw ac from a xformer powering the lamps. They built 120 cycle filters in to the amp circuits to try to take the "grunt" out of the reproduction. You can imagine what this did to the lower fundamental range.
Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 11-05-2002, 02:19 PM:
FWIW: The voltage is NOT that critical. Obviously you shouldn't go over the rated voltage, but you can go under with no problem. I've routinely underdriven exciters to extend lamp life, and as long as you've still got a decent amount of light it has relatively little impact on volume or frequency response.
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 11-05-2002, 04:33 PM:
Thanks Jeff, that is what i was wondering. I have many power supplies around here that would work. (Quite a few electronic gadgets that have died). I will probably try to use one of the adapters that is closest to the original voltage and amperage and see how it does.
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 11-07-2002, 10:40 PM:
Update: Found 2 solar cells in the attic and installed one of them. Still have to wire up the motor, add oil, and put a new switch in as the plastic on it is cracked before I see how well it runs.Here it is so far.
BTW, I should have a projector head within a few weeks too.
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Adam Fraser
www.pinestheatre.com
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 12-29-2002, 10:01 PM:
Update: I have a Simplex E-7 hopefully showing up tomorrow. Anything I should be aware of on these machines before I get up and running? I am trained on X-L's and have read the E-7 manual. Also, is there a standard length belt for 2000 foot reel arms? I have the style that uses the weights in the arm to adjust slippage, not the friction clutch. If not no big deal I can just measure when I get it together.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-30-2002, 11:40 AM:
E7's with the oblique drive shaft rather than the verticle one are more prone to trouble
By the way the best excitor level is 80% of its rateing as that will give the best ratio of bulb life to eveness of filament illumination
Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 12-31-2002, 09:03 AM:
The E7 should be little trouble. Gord mentioned the oblique shaft model, although "more troublesome" they did run quite a few shows in their time. I would hope you get a vertical shaft model though!
The E7 isn't very suitable for platter operation because of the "one-shot" oiling system.
You must have the oil catcher tray between the projector and soundhead... when you push the oiler all the oil delivered will make its way into the soundhead otherwise. Quite a bit will even with the tray.
Check the sprockets! It may have "silent" sprockets (unlikely) or CS sprockets (likely). CS sprockets will work OK but the narrow teeth are very prone to hooking so if it has a lot of hours you may be in trouble. New sprockets will kill your budget, but you should be able to get good used or NOS CS constant speed sprockets for a song. I would recommend a VKF intermittent if you can find one for a decent price. Changing the intermittent sprocket is a nightmare on those things I think... tapered drive pin maybe?
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-31-2002, 09:33 AM:
The oblique shaft machine was quieter but defintely not as robust especially with large reels.The intermittent sprocket was usually taperpinned on so a v guide is needed
The oneshot oiling was very reliable and really no more messy than the old oil tubes on a super or standard since they were supposed to have several drops put in each every day as well
Posted by Bob Koch (Member # 1062) on 12-31-2002, 12:31 PM:
Im a very old man and the first E7 I saw in 1938 did`nt have taper pins on the intermittent sprocket, none of them ever did.
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 12-31-2002, 02:57 PM:
Well, UPS busted the shutter and shutter guards so the projector is going to their claim center so I can get my money back or they give me the money to repair it. I guess my project will have to wait a few more weeks. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[bs]](graemlins/bs.gif)
= UPS, it looks like they must have threw it a few times while it was being delivered as it was very, very well packed.
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 01-01-2003, 10:46 PM:
Hey Adam,
Sorry to hear about your shipping problem, I only hope you find a projector head that's complete and not butchered like mine was. Anyway I thought you might like to see my sound system and exciter power supply for my rig.
Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 01-02-2003, 06:01 AM:
Sorry to hear of your shipping problems. UPS is the worst shipping outfit in the country in my opinion. They never make good on damages - always say the packing was insufficient ![[fu]](graemlins/fu.gif)
Sam - I like your vintage tube amp! ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 01-02-2003, 10:03 AM:
Nice set-up Sam, mine will probably end up similar. But have to get this damn projector problem fixed. Too bad as this was a very good projector with nothing missing and everything moved freely. But the shutter guard was in 5 pieces and the shutter was broken into 3 pieces.
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-02-2003, 11:08 AM:
OUCH!!! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Packaging heavy objects is tough. I find solid foam works best.
Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 01-02-2003, 09:21 PM:
Well, first off I have to say thanks for the compliments from you guys.
My projector may have been butchered but at least it was shipped in a crate via fedex.
Keep them sprockets rolling guys!
P.S. Chuck Norris RULES!!!!!
Posted by Bill Mantz (Member # 754) on 01-06-2003, 06:23 PM:
My question about this situation is how easy or hard is it to break the shutter gurde It would have to be droped to break it like that or hit with a slege hammer to break it. Has any one else had a piese like that break with out very little effort.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-06-2003, 06:50 PM:
Bill, that is cast aluminum, and very easy to break. Besides, leave it to FEDEX or UPS...they can break anything. Even a CDROM. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
UPS will tell you that the box and its contents must sustain a full six-foot free-fall to be properly protected. Sometimes the shipping personnel at the transfer stations cannot clear the belts in time, and things will wind up on the floor. I can imagine FEDEX has similar requirements and problems.
Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 01-07-2003, 12:35 PM:
That stuff is VERY easy too break, just like Paul said.
When I was moving one of my BX-60's with the soundhead still attached (don't worry - it's a parts donor for my other 3)I went to pick it up with one hand on the back of the projector and the other hand on the mounting bracket for the soundhead motor. I didn't get it a foot off the floor before the motor bracket snapped in half!! Clean break, but impossible to repair. It was an old Motigraph/Ballentyne Model 7 sound head, and I never planned to use it anyway.
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 01-08-2003, 10:23 AM:
The seller and I are trying to figure out what to charge the UPS insurance for the damage to my E-7. It needs a new shutter assembly (shutter and metal backing plate), the complete shutter guard assembly including the part that the framing knob hole is in, I believe it is 4 pieces. Probably not for labor to install these parts but just parts prices. Any comments here or in my email would be appreciated. Also, if anyone has these parts feel free to email me as I will be needing them after the claim comes through. Also, is there anything else that may need to be replaced as I see that the entire framing knob and shaft has to be removed to remove one of the shutter guards.