Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Friday pickups and ELRs

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-04-2002, 04:28 AM:

Quick survey for opinions regarding Extended Length Reels and Technicolor's immediate demand for return of their prints.

Assuming the ELR was re-designed properly, would everyone here have as many complaints regarding Friday pickups after a hectic Thursday night? Just curious. I know it would cut down SUBSTANTIALLY on breakdown time and unnecessary film handling and damage. It would also virtually eliminate the possibility of a movie being put together wrong on a last second delivery. Sadly the two gentlemen who tried to get this idea going are no longer with us. Anyone see a potential future for this great idea? (This curiosity was spurred from the current discussion on eliminating lab changeover cues and how some theaters make a mess of cueing prints.)

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 11-04-2002, 06:24 AM:

Brad,

Our currier service picks up the films at 1 AM on Fridays.

KEN

Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 11-04-2002, 08:08 AM:

Id love having those if they were made from better reels.
Even if they didnt have to be broken own right away, it would help get prints out of the way if you have a lot of films to play as well as a lot of moves halfway through the day (like we sometimes do).

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Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 11-04-2002, 08:16 AM:

I think ELR's are a great idea for a couple of things that you mentioned, however, I think that Christie would have to redo the make up table.

Breaking down on a 6K gets slower as the reel is getting full, and even harder as you get closer to the center ring. You can hear the MUT straining to make this thing move.

Paul.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-04-2002, 09:02 AM:

The ELR is a reasonable idea, but, as always, the devil is in the details. For example:

- double-inventory problem for theatres that can't handle ELRs
- assembly of ELRs (I've never seen a splice made at a depot that didn't need to be remade; I'd be very afraid if the ELR involved the splicing together of 2000' reels at the depot)
- shipping and storage issues
- replacement reels
- cost of new reels and shipping containers, as well as conversion of depot film racks to accommodate them

Personally, I'd say that it isn't worth the trouble, and that the industry's time and money would be better spent on improving the existing distribution infrastructure. Prints need to arrive on good reels and need to be packed to avoid damage in shipping. Theatres which damage film should be charged for the damage. Neither of these is happening consistently at this time and both are more important than ELRs.

Even if the ELR concept is implemented, it will probably only be for wide releases. It wouldn't make sense to use ELRs for limited releases of, say, a dozen prints, or repertory prints, due to the double-inventory issues, since there are plenty of theatres that can't accommodate the large reels. Also, shipping would probably be more expensive for the larger, heavier containers.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-04-2002, 09:23 AM:

It would be an interesting move, perhaps from a small art distributor whose prints move through many venues and are most prone to getting hacked up at the reel ends, to try sending out prints on regular metal 6000' reels, perhaps the less expensive solid hub ones. Maybe paint them a distinctive color and clearly mark ownership and make it clear that the theatre will be charged for loss or damage. While there are some C/O houses left it would not be that hard to survey the customers to see which cannot handle a 6K reel since many who do run with two projectors run their normal movies this way. Obviously a decent shipping case is needed too.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 11-04-2002, 09:36 AM:

I liked the idea of ELRs except for the fact that the reels were a bit flimsy. On a couple films released from Warner Brothers, they used thick plastic blue reels that were held together by a clip in the middle. Always one or both of the reels had the clip broken. Other times, the reel was warped.

I LOVED the shipping cases!! Easy to cary, sturdy, the latches worked, they wouldn't get dented (thick plastic), and we even had a rack in our booth to store them.

As far as ELR prints being assembled at the depot, I don't think this is correct. Every print, as far as I recall, that we recieved on ELRs was printed that way. Changeover cues were throughout the print as if it were 5-6 reels, but there were no splices and the "shade" of the reel was consistent when it layed on the platter.

Once we recieved a New Line print on ELRs and a second on regular reels. When it was time for pickup, they specifically wanted the regular print and not the ELR. Wonder why?

On a side note, I've also never noticed a lab splice in the few ELR prints we received.

=TMP=

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 11-04-2002, 10:53 AM:

>> Every print, as far as I recall, that we recieved on ELRs was printed that way.<<

Most if not all of the ELR prints I have handled had the reels lab-spliced together, so I am assuming the work was done at the lab level, rather than at the depots.

I am for the ELR but only if the reels they use are metal, solid-hub jobs with 5/16" spindle holes. The Warner/New Line ELR was almost as bad as the 2000' TES reel.

Scott is also right, there are still many locations out there that utilize 2000' reels in which they are screwed if they receive a print on ELR's (most of these places are not likely to have film handling equipment that will accept a 6000' size reel, for starters).

Better design of the DTS holder would be appreciated too, I have had a couple ELR prints where the DTS discs got caught in the bottom of the can and were smashed up pretty badly. Maybe a pouch or something that will positively latch closed would work.

Just my $.02

-Aaron

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-04-2002, 11:08 AM:

My booth isn't exactly huge. So I have no idea where we could store these things! They would literally impede the projectionist and be a fire hazard if all of our movies were shipped on ELR's.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-04-2002, 02:40 PM:

One detail that hindered the adoption of ELRs was that the titles and credits are often not decided until just before release. So the middle reels of a feature can be printed while waiting for a final decision on the first and last reels, but would have to wait with ELRs. Labs were willing to equip their printers to handle 6000 foot continuous lengths if ELRs became standard, but in most cases, shorter reels were just spliced together in lab "positive assembly" or at the film exchange. New Line and Warner Bros. were the only two distributors to really try ELRs on a large scale basis.

Complete conversion to new ELR reels and cases would be a very significant expense, not to mention the cost of new racks and handling equipment at all levels.

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-04-2002, 03:10 PM:

Steve -- interesting thought, but it seems that the art houses are the most likely venues to _not_ be able to accommodate the large reels.

What about theatres with Norelcos? Or Western Electric universal bases? Or limited ceiling height? Many of these places simply wouldn't be able to convert, so ELRs would need to be double inventory items. I've personally worked in three (four as of next week) places in the last couple of years that can't run large reels, and none of them is likely to convert.

Even platter houses might have issues: aren't there some makeup tables that can only handle 2000' reels?

I do think that the ELR is basically a good idea for the multiplexes, but it would always be a double-inventory item, so it seems to me that the money and effort would be more likely to benefit the average filmgoer if it were spent in some other way.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-04-2002, 03:47 PM:

It was always my presumption that if/when ELRs happened, changeover houses would convert their bench rewind equipment to support 6k reels. Then, such theatres could cut the ELRs and attach house heads/tails on 2k reels. (This is what I envisioned us doing, at least initially, since converting our projectors to 6k reels would be a rather large production...).

This does have the potential to be a big pain, of course:

Cutting uncut prints is always unfortunate, and in a bizarre variant on "turnabout is fair play," it would now be the platter houses that have to rely on the changeover houses to splice things together nicely.
It would be a lot more work for the changeover houses, who at the moment can go off-screen in seconds (if they take-up onto shipping reels), or seconds+unattended minutes (if they take-up onto house reels and rewind to shipping reels).
It might be real difficult to find the reel breaks; labs could include footage counts of the constituent reels, but not everyone has a frame counter or sync block (though I guess you could use a ruler/chart and "do the math"). Actually, it would be great if lab-style edge notching were used. I suppose it wouldn't be the end of the world if a changeover house cut 6k reels in the "wrong" places, but then hopefully they would add only temporary cues (adhesive dots or china marker).

TMP's comment about lab-splices is interesting. I assume that means there's one dupe neg for the entire ELR, and that they use an entire 6k roll of raw stock for it, and then "do something creative with the short ends." That's a positive benefit of ELRs I hadn't considered...

--jhawk

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-04-2002, 07:07 PM:

I know of one screening room where the policy was that any print arriving on 6000' reels simply would not be run. Where as the changeover house using the sound pull-ups on the leader, it isn't a good idea to merely splice on house leader to breakdown a 6K reel to multiple 2K reels.

If ELR reels were to happen, they should be with 1/2" shafts not 5/16"

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-04-2002, 07:18 PM:

Oww; quite right, Steve. I do keep forgetting about those pullups.
"I guess that would be problem."

--jhawk

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-04-2002, 08:48 PM:

Another arrogant thing to remember is that all of the "important" screening rooms (studios and such) are run changeover (20 minute rolls)...so there isn't going to be any big push from the studio end for such things. One advantage I could see though is that the changeover public theatres would be obtaining their films from the screening room pool...probably a better crop of prints.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 11-04-2002, 09:45 PM:

One advantage I could see though is that the changeover public theatres would be obtaining their films from the screening room pool...probably a better crop of prints.

One would assume you are not talking of the screening room Brad got Frida from?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-05-2002, 12:20 AM:

There's a screening room pool? Coulda fooled me!

There may be screening prints (for example, Sony Classics prints with a letter designation) but those are just as likely to have been plattered as any others. I wish there were a changeover-only pool.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-05-2002, 08:04 AM:

Thats just it Steve...if the ELR divided the houses into platter and changeover...the changeover houses would not have to worry about the abuses of the large reel and platter buildups and tear downs. How many shoepolished prints have you seen that still have the leaders and tails attached without splices?

Now all is not perfect there...I did receive a print that was run only once and it was wasted at a home screening room that not only scratched the film on every other reel but oiled the living crap out of the print.

I had to call for a replacement print of a film that had been run once! And the room that damaged it was a higher-up person for the studio. A very uncomfortable position to be in, indeed!

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Josh Kirkhart (Member # 1046) on 11-05-2002, 08:33 AM:

Out on a limb...

I don't know how established the 6000 reel idea is, but wouldn't a 4000 reel do just as well. We would still lose a couple splices, and build up tables should be able to accomidate these well enough. The change over guys would still be screwed if they don't have a large enough cartridge on the projector. Seems a little more economic and you still cut your reel count in half, probably a little easier to ship as well.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-05-2002, 10:31 AM:

Actually I wouldn't mind running 6000' reels. I do have a clearance problem but I've managed before by re-angling the upper arms; perhaps a reworking of the suspended ceiling would be in order if this ever came to pass. Given how poorly many films are edited nowadays in terms of C/O operation it might make for a smoother show.

I would bet that a lot of the 20 min reel C/O houses that "cannot" handle large reels could with a bit of ingenuity, especially for the feed (reel on the floor behind each machine, reel crosswise on the wall to the left of the left and right of the right, etc.). There will be some where nothing practical will work but I'll bet those are few in number.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-05-2002, 10:59 AM:

Considering that the Norelcos can't hold a 6000' reel even with the covers removed (it could be done by shimming up the head slightly) 4000 or 5000' would be better