Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: When did Strong switch from blue to red?

This is topic When did Strong switch from blue to red? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-14-2002, 04:11 PM:

I am talking about the Century line of projectors. Specifically the shutter box window. When they were blue, it was nice. Now that they are red, it is blinding! There is something about that red light that when you glance at it shoots pain into your eyes. To give you an idea how bright this is, I put 2 inch Permacel gaffer's tape over those windows to give the operators some headache relief, and you can STILL see that red light coming through. (Of course at this level it is no longer offensive to the eyes.)

I'm sure John will have some link with an explanation as to why this color is so painful to look at. While I am interested in such an explanation, I am more interested when and why Strong changed and if they still offer the blue glass.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-14-2002, 05:15 PM:

Maybe Strong was concerned that with the tight turn around times labs face that they didn't want to expose film that hadn't fully developed yet to non-red light.

Yeah, I know.

I'd actually like to know too, blue was nice. At least it has to be better than red.

What's with Cinemeccanica's green ones? It's not even dark green, they're super bright, not that any colour is going to be really dim with a 5KW bulb behind it, but light green.

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 11-14-2002, 05:35 PM:

Funny, but several Century projectors in my area have green glass. I suspect that the glass on these projectors got broken at one time and were replaced with green welders glass.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-14-2002, 05:44 PM:

I've used quite a few Century's with green glass that was OK, but the green in the V5's are pretty bright, all seven of them.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 11-14-2002, 05:50 PM:

Never seena blue one!

All the Century Centuries, ORC Centuries, Strong Centuries and Century clones (Westar) I've ever seen have red glass. Can't say I've ever found it too bright either.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 11-14-2002, 06:38 PM:

Green ones are what I am used to seeing on Simplex and Brenkert peojectors. Blue on Century and Cinecita.

I remember the blue windows an Ashcraft arc lamps. They were hard on the eyes!! I think I have seen some red ones in arc lamps, too.

Peerless and Brenkert used green ones, and they are easy on the eyes. I wish they would stay with green. I would like to know the reason why Strong wants to change color of the glass.

Did you ever see any color other than green in an arc welding mask? I haven't.....

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 11-14-2002, 07:11 PM:

The older (1970) JJs I worked with had pink glass. Don't know if they started out red.... I worked with some MSCs built perhaps seven years ago that had the red glass. It wasn't overly bright with 3K lamps. Personally I like the red light, makes for a cool eerie look.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-14-2002, 07:27 PM:

Brad-

Didn't ya know? With the new red light coming from the projector, you are supposed to set up mirrors and bounce the light down into the optical scanner for the sound. That way you never have to worry about changing LEDs in the sound head.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-14-2002, 07:30 PM:

Maybe you could bounce the red light through a DLP array to use as your hearing impaired system.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-14-2002, 07:44 PM:

I think the INTENSITY of the light is what's bothersome, rather than the color. Perhaps certain projectors have sight glasses with lower density, so the light is much brighter? Pat Moore may know the recent history of the sight glass supply that Century uses.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: here Kodak Website

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-14-2002, 08:16 PM:

Actually brad you are missing a business oportunity set up a "red light" district in the booth

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-14-2002, 08:34 PM:

If nothing else, this thread is certainly entertaining!

Actually John may have that pegged. For kicks I am going to bring in one of my blue pieces from the JJs in the screening room and put them in to at least compare the difference between a 2K vs. a 4K.

Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 11-14-2002, 09:40 PM:

How about purple or dark purple glass? Or the same kind of glass that they used in old yellow-brown drug or other-colored antique glass bottles? Some antique glass bottles that people collect are way darker at a possibly comfortabe brightness if you cut one up & install it on the shutter housing.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-14-2002, 09:48 PM:

I'll hedge a guess that Permacel tape is easier to cut than convincing some collector to let you cut up their antique glass bottle (let alone cutting a flat piece of glass out of a round bottle).

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 11-14-2002, 09:51 PM:

I ran across a pair of Strong Utility lamps that had purple glass in them. It would make a white shirt glow like a blacklight

Josh

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-14-2002, 09:56 PM:

I can't recall, but is the width of the glass less than 35mm? If so, a piece of nearly black film leader could make a pretty good filter, perhaps sandwiched with the existing glass.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-14-2002, 10:01 PM:

Film might melt on that glass. It gets pretty hot.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-14-2002, 10:46 PM:

Daryl, from the looks of your picture the Century's have the red glass. I am talking about the projectors you are leaning against that are pointing up almost vertically. Perhaps you shouldn't lean against them so hard! I bet there is NO keystoning on that screen!

Let me take a wild guess... that pic was taken at a drive in.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-14-2002, 11:01 PM:

Those obviously aren't the ones with blue glass.

Somehow you guessed it... it's a drive-in. I work there a whole one night a year. Those machines were installed about 10 years ago.

There actually isn't too much keystoning. The picture is supposed to be shaped like a triangle right?

Heck, those projectors are more perpendicular than the other set I use to use that nearly pointed at the floor.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 11-14-2002, 11:24 PM:

There might be a good reason for changing colors after all. I remember some people who liked to stare at an arc flame on the Enarcs and Peerless through the green glass. Then they wondered why their eyes felt like sandpaper after a while. If the glass was blue, purple or red, the gawkers could not look at it that long as they could through the green glass.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-14-2002, 11:27 PM:

But arcs are so fun to look at. Arc welder, carbon arc, even xenon arcs... I used to have great vision.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-15-2002, 12:06 AM:

Don't Ashcrafts have both red _and_ blue glass? I haven't seen any for a few years and have never run them, so I might be mis-remembering something.

Anyway, all the Simplexes I have seen have green glass, as do Strong xenon lamphouses and Peerless and Enarc lamps. For Centurys, I've seen a mix of red and blue (and maybe green, too), but I'm not convinced that it corresponds to the vintage of the machine, unless someone might have replaced the glass at some point.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-15-2002, 12:16 AM:

I think you should be able to order a Century with the glass in any color you want, similar to the iMacs. It can be red and green at Christmas time, orange at Halloween, green on St Patricks Day, red white and blue during Memorial and Veterans day... not to mention 4th of July, etc.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-15-2002, 10:16 AM:

Josh Jones wrote: "I ran across a pair of Strong Utility lamps that had purple glass in them. It would make a white shirt glow like a blacklight "

Obviously the purple glass filter was still letting lots of ultraviolet energy through (arc lamps produce enough ultraviolet energy to give a nasty sunburn and permanently damage eyes).

Any filter used for directly viewing an arc should be effective in reducing ALL wavelengths, not just the visible ones, or eye damage can occur.

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 11-15-2002, 04:15 PM:

This thread reminds me...
Once, when replacing a cracked glass, I wondered what the effect on others would be if I cut replacements in other colors than green.
I cut some in several colors, including amber, blue and purple, and switched in my home theatre. Not receiving any feedback, I took the glasses with me when working the [projectionists' temp] list, and each day inserted a different color. Still no feedback--maybe nobody noticed or cared. So I gave up the experiment, and for the life of me cannot now remember where I obtained the sheets of colored glass from which I cut the windows, nor what became of them. Perhaps they were thrown out when I had the garage emptied...

Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 11-15-2002, 06:13 PM:

Some glass bottles do have flat sides such as the square & rectangular bottles. You can find such used or antique bottles at an antique store,garage sale,flea market or a Salvation Army or Goodwill.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-15-2002, 07:42 PM:

THere are many suppliers of stain glass for window apps
I personally like the deep welders green

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-15-2002, 11:18 PM:

The switch to the red glass was long before Strong got involved. ORC definately had the red glass in them. There was also the brown glass era in there...somewhere. And I have seen quite a few projectors with the distinct cardboard colored glass...though those may have been an "aftermarket" improvement after the originals were dropped.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-16-2002, 04:59 PM:

Brad,

Just get a couple of pieces of green Rosco gel in various densities of green -- the are designed for heat. Tape the darkest gel over the red glass and see what you get. If it is too dark, just go to a lighter green until you get the right balance. Problem solved.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-16-2002, 06:45 PM:

I don't think that Rosco gels are designed for the kind of sustained heat the Xenon can provide, no. If you really want variety, drop by your local welding supply house (or someplace like weldingsupply.com), and examine various different shades of welding glass filters (designed for use in welding goggles). Generally they're about $1 for a piece that should fit in a projector (you'll have to trim down some).

--jhawk

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-16-2002, 09:00 PM:

The glass in the shutter box window does not provide a direct view of the arc, and is not directly illuminated by the lamphouse beam. So as long as the filter can take the normal heating in that location, something like the Rosco filters (or dense film leader) may be suitable.

Any filter used for direct viewing of the arc plasma MUST protect the eyes against all wavelengths of energy -- so welders dark glass would be about the only suitable filter there.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-16-2002, 09:47 PM:

Doesn't it? I believe there are angles from which light from the arc can be viewed through the shutter window...

But since Frank was talking about augmenting welding glass with a Rosco gel, the UV issues shouldn't apply to the gel. I was merely referring to heat issues.

--jhawk

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-16-2002, 09:57 PM:

That gaffer's tape is working just fine. I can't think of a reason I ever needed to watch the shutter spin anyway. I was just curious when the switch happened and if there was any resoning, (such as "looks cool" or "was cheaper" or "gave this benefit" or whatever it was) but I don't actually expect for Pat to respond.

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 11-16-2002, 10:57 PM:

Such a vote of confidence!

Actually, I think Steve already answered in that the change was made before Strong got out hands on Century. When I'm back in the plant next week I'll take a look-see. I know we use a green welder's glass in the lamphouses to directly view the arc but as John pointed out, that spot sight glass doesn't look at the arc but at the circle of light at the aperture.

Pat

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-17-2002, 12:49 AM:

The confidence is because you haven't been answering any questions put forth to you or directed toward a Strong rep for some time now. The tape thing is working fine, but for curiosity in the future (or replacements should I need to order some) are other colors available?

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 11-17-2002, 06:43 AM:

Looking through posts, I haven't seen anything reasonable that I haven't commented on or answered.

I'll take a look at glass when I'm back in the office. Hopefully Monday but I'm off on a trip that day as well.

Pat

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-17-2002, 07:01 AM:

There are no such things as stupid or unreasonable questions, Pat. Selective responding is frowned upon here. If you are going to represent a company, you must take the bad with the good.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-17-2002, 10:54 AM:

Brad, you must have a few queries in mind that people asked. Perhaps you can point Pat towards them just to speed things along.

I'll reitterate one of my own. Does (did) Bob Potts get compensated as the designer of the Strong platter when Strong started buying units of his design straight from the fabricator contracted to build them and then more recently purchased the fabricator and made it a subsidiary thus causing him to have to buy his own design from a competitor?

Hehehe no easy questions about colored glass from me!

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 11-17-2002, 11:47 AM:

Hi Steve;

Design, as far as I know, always made the platter for Potts. The licensing arrangement on the original Balco occurred over 20 years ago and I really don't know the details of that; before my time with the company.

If there's anything going on now, it's really between the parties, isn't it? I don't know enough to speak from Ballantyne's side, and I certainly can't speak for Bob. Potts is still in business, his buying arrangement predates our acquisition of Design and still continues, and that's about all I know.

Now that wasn't so hard...

Pat

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 02-27-2003, 06:24 PM:

We got some new shutter sight glass replacements in today to replace our broken ones. Sure enough, they're red. What's more, they're not real glass, but instead Plexiglass. At least this will keep them from breaking so often for some reason or another. [Smile]

=TMP=

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-27-2003, 06:37 PM:

...and 3 months later I'm still waiting for an answer from Strong. It's not like I asked a ton of questions here, just one: is the blue available? If yes, the obvious following question is: what is the part number? If no, the obvious following question is: why not and will it ever be made available again?

It sure does feel good to be ignored. That's great customer service. [thumbsup]

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-02-2003, 05:30 PM:

If anyone is interested in changing colors of the sight glass, you should check with my friends over at International Cinema. I believe they stock them in your choice of blue or red.

(Who knows? There may even be other colors!)