Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: How Old Is Your Oldest Projector?

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Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 11-20-2002, 06:55 PM:

My cinema supplier was here this morning doing a check up to see what our cinema needed. He was astounded when he read the serial numbers off of our two Simplex XL projectors. We have #318 and #1606. He figures that since XLs were first manufactured in 1949 that one of our machines is from 1949 and the other one is from 1950 something.

So my oldest projector is 53 years old!

I know a theatre that just opened using Super Simplex.

Simplex Regular 1909
Simplex Standard 1916
Simplex Super 1928
Simplex E-7 1939
Simplex XL 1949

I work at the Telluride Film Festival that still uses Brenkers. Brenkerts were last manufactured in 1956.

How old is your oldest projector?

P.S. I'm thinking of getting rid of my 8-year-old car but I'm keeping my 53-year-old projectors. [Smile]

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 11-20-2002, 07:06 PM:

It would also be interesting to know how many hours they have on them (if you know with any degree of accuracy).

Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 11-20-2002, 07:13 PM:

2 Simplex X-L's from 1954, 2 SH-1000's from 1941. My guess is a little over 50,000 hours on the projectors, about 68,000 hours on the soundheads. Neither of them have ever needed to be completely overhauled to my knowledge.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-20-2002, 07:15 PM:

My projectors are probably close to 40 years old, but they sure don't act like it! They act more like 426 years old.

Posted by Joshua Lott (Member # 240) on 11-20-2002, 07:30 PM:

I was working at a place briefly that had Simplex E-7. It said 1939 right on it. I converted it from carbon arc to xenon. WoW... that thing was old.

The people that owned it had a "good" xenon bulb sitting in the lamphouse in storage.

Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 11-20-2002, 08:40 PM:

My Brenkert and I are both over 50. I'll probably stop functioning before it does. It's certainly going to outlast my Christie! (Yeah, I know the picture shows a Super, but it's found another home...it WAS my oldest machine, but it found a new home.)

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-20-2002, 09:10 PM:

My oldest at home is a Norelco DP-70. This is a unique DP-70 as it's original home was the Seattle Cinerama Theatre. Its mate was dropped when they were being removed, but its present owner has found another main casting to put its guts back into. Other unique features are that it has a "Cinefocus" 70mm trap assembly, and a RED LED reverse scanner of my own design [thumbsup]

. Have had many, many projectors at home over the past years, but keep going back to these beasts [Big Grin]

In the field the oldest I service are a bunch of Motiograph AA's up in Idaho. There are 5 of them in a plex in Burley and one downtown in a single screen. They run like a top, but they are very boring and require VERY LITTLE service, sort of the Maytag of Movie projectors [sleep]

. All are equipped with RED LED reverse scanners by Kelmar.

Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 11-20-2002, 09:15 PM:

6 Simplex 1014's & 6 5 Stars between 20 & 30 years of age since they were made by NTS/NSS.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-20-2002, 10:06 PM:

Last week, I ran film at a theatre which opened in 1938 and is still using their original Enarc lamps and Western Electric soundheads/bases (the ones with the gearing for Vitaphone turntables). They have Century C heads, though, which were apparently installed in the early '50s with CinemaScope.

At the Williamsburg Theatre, we had Century MSA/2 projectors s/n 150 and 151. Can anyone date these? They were apparently installed there in the '70s, after being purchased used from a drive-in.

I regularly run Century JJ s/n 118, which I assume is from the early '60s.

Does anyone know when Century Cs switched from the small lens holder to the large one? I've worked with several Cs (great machines!), mostly with the small lens holder.

Tonight I ran film on Simplexes built in 1998. My car is twelve years old.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 11-21-2002, 02:02 AM:

The oldest daily operating projectors in my chain are the 4 Simplex XL's (most likely 1950's vintage, on 1940's SH-100x soundheads) in screens 1-2-3(soundhead only)-5-6 at our Fortuna, CA location. The other two projectors are a 1970s NSS Simplex 1014(on a SH-1000) and a 1980's NSS 1014 on a 5-Star.

The newest projectors we have are 1992 model Simplex 1050's/5-Star in Cloverdale, CA (all 4 screens) and screens 5-6 in Boyes Springs, CA.

-Aaron

Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 11-21-2002, 03:40 AM:

Lumiere Cinematographe Number 8 manufactured in 1895 [Eek!]

Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 1430) on 11-21-2002, 04:20 AM:

After seeing some of the dates listed re the Simplex series I don't know just which model my pair are.
I was always under the impression that they were E7's but they have front & rear shutters which mine does not and the door is different as well. Mine have a hole in the casting to install a hand winder if I feel inclined... but I don't.
I have a Simplex Parts Price List in my hand and it is clearly labelled 1936 and comparing the bits and pieces in there with what I have it seems that mine are Super Simplex.
Both are fitted with double bearing intermittents and neither has an original Simplex serial number plate on them.
These have been modified years ago with a heavier rear shutter housing and a sturdy front plate and top to allow mounting of the scope lens bracket which was all done in West Australia by a guy called Bernie Hartland.
He had quite busy workshop machining parts and repairing assorted 35mm gear during the late 1940'2 thru to around early 1960's.
I supsect that my pair were used in drive ins in the north of the state of WA as one of mine was labelled "Newman" which was Mount Newman of iron ore fame and did once have a DI.
It has a fairly substantially shaved shutter which gives me a bit of the odd travel ghost top and bottom but a slight twitch on the shutter timing screw soon fixes that up.
Before I set them up in the outdoor cinema I rebuilt both with spares from the pile I have acquired and for 5 years they ran each summer season without a hitch. (3 shows a week for 22 weeks)
At the end of season 5 the upper feed sprocket shaft bearing was showing a bit of wear so I stripped them down and had a mate bore and insert a new bushing in bronze so they are nice and snug again.
The shaft/s had almost zero wear at the point where they turn in the bearing which was quite amazing really as I have no idea just how many hours of film these old girls have screened.
We have just started season 7 and after a bit of a clean up, some light oiling here and there, they are again just purring along with the traditional Simplex gear grumble and touch wood they have never failed during a show apart from the odd belt breakage.
Truly amazing old ladies and I hope my car which is 3 years old is as reliable in 5 years as these are.
Built like tanks, solid engineering and a testament to the era in which they were built.
I would like to see a Monee do the same hours these have done.
Even the soundheads are just as rugged. Westrex 206B's which I believe was about the second edition soundhead after talkies were introduced. They have a flywheel that weighs a packet sitting on a shaft that is about 3/4" in diam and bronze bushes throughout and even now I am battling to detect any wear in any of the shafts or bearings. Still running photo electric cells which are about the same size as a 40 watt bulb, no noise, no hum , no problems but Mono of course.
Simplex may not be the most elegant looking beasts and not the easiest to thread but they are extremely functional and give a rock steady picture on a 10m screen. [Big Grin]

Lindsay Morris
Kookaburra Outdoor Cinema
Mundaring WA
Australia

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 11-21-2002, 06:38 AM:

Two Brenkert BX-40's from 1940.
Two SH-1000's from 1941.
A Motio AA built in 1948.

Just acquired from a closed theater:
Simplex E-7 (oblique shaft - probably 1938 - 1942)
Brenkert BX-60 (Robert Sprague says circa 1950)
RCA MI 9050 soundhead (No idea when)

Most of this stuff predates me, I was born in 1947! [Big Grin]

Posted by Geoffrey Weiss (Member # 882) on 11-21-2002, 10:28 AM:

2 Simplex Standards w/SH 1000 soundheads. I haven't checked the dates for sure, but probably about 1930, which is when the theatre I removed them from converted to movies. I just recently got one of them up and running--sans the original Magnarc, of course. I just don't have three-phase in my house.

I did a little research around town and, as far as I could tell, everything I took out of that theatre had run from the time it was installed up to 1985. They didn't even convert to XLs when they started showing scope movies. They did have magnetic penthouses, but were still running mono phototubes in 1985.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 11-21-2002, 11:30 AM:

quote:
They didn't even convert to XLs when they started showing scope movies

Can someone elaborate? Why would the introduction of scope possibly trigger an upgrade from Standards to XLs? [Embarrassed]

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 11-21-2002, 11:48 AM:

>>Can someone elaborate? Why would the introduction of scope possibly trigger an upgrade from Standards to XLs?<<

When CinemaScope debuted in 1953 it was a mag-only format. Simplex' mag-ready sound system was called 'XL'. Though the XL projector was introduced in 1949/50, I would assume that it was also part of a complete 'XL' package with XL projector, SH-1007 'XL' optical soundhead, and 'XL' mag penthouses and associated preamps and amplifiers. I have seen all this equipment bearing the 'Simplex XL' name.

-Aaron

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-21-2002, 12:20 PM:

Here are some first-hand materials on early CinemaScope conversions:

http://widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/cinemascoperef.htm

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 11-21-2002, 12:30 PM:

I got this via email from a guy who is a Simplex enthusiast.

quote:
From an old National Theatre Supply and many other sources the XL started
production runs in 1950. Both #318 and #1606 are listed as 1950
machines. From what I can find out NTS branches had samples in 1949 and some prototypes for trials in the NY area earlier than that.

The Simplex Regular & Standard are really the same. When they first came out they were just called the "Simplex". First ones in regular production in the fall of 1911.

Simplex - 1911 starting #100
Supers - 1929 starting #38270
SP - 1933 starting #100
E-7 - 1938 (I have #E108) ninth machine in production. starting # 100
XL - 1950 starting #101

So both of my Simplexs are 52 years old.

Posted by Tom Doyle (Member # 1474) on 11-21-2002, 12:35 PM:

My theater has a Century model C. (I don't recall the serial number offhand - how can I tell the year of manufacture based on it?) Next to it is a Century model H. Both are in good running condition and are used daily. They were installed when the place was built in 1987. I actually enjoy having some older projectors around - these two are very easy on the film and never have any problems.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-21-2002, 01:10 PM:

The oldest projectors I ever worked with was a pair of Ernemann VIIB from the 1930s whoch were still in operation when I worked at the theater in the late 80s. I hear they replaced during the mid 90s, so they worked for about 60 years. Some people in Germany have Ernemann VIIBs which still work.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 11-21-2002, 01:25 PM:

Adam's projectors have ~50,000 hours on them. Made me wonder how that would compare to miles on a car. [Smile]

From what I've googled, the average speed of a typical automobile over its lifetime is somewhat under 30MPH (includes time spent idling, etc.). I'll use 30MPH as a round number. The average number of miles driven in 1 year is 12,000. 12,000 miles divided by 30 miles per hour = 400 hours of operation per year.

At 400 hours per year, it would take 125 years for the car to log 50,000 hours of operation.

If that car's average speed over 50,000 hours of use is 30MPH, it would have 1.5 million miles on the odometer.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-21-2002, 01:45 PM:

Like the famous Timex watch, a well-maintained film projector "keeps on tickin'". [Smile]

Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 11-21-2002, 02:34 PM:

I figured that out by taking an average of 3 hours/day running time, multiplying by 365 days/year for 48 years for the projector heads and 61 yrs for the soundheads.
3*365*48=52,560
3*365*61=66,795
The numbers may be just a bit high because I'm not sure how many 2 show nights we had before the 60's as information is scarce before that time.
It is fun to play with the numbers though. [Big Grin]

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 11-21-2002, 06:19 PM:

Adam.... I may be being a bit dim here but why the difference for the picture head and the sound head?

I could almost imagin the picture head having done more hours than the sound head if you were allowing for the latter part of the silent era, but not the other way around. Any reason that I can't
see.

Regards Ken.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-21-2002, 09:09 PM:

Adam,
The old Standards could not support the weight of even a B&L scope lens without sagging, or using an under the lens holder. Eventually the lens mount would distort form the weight. There were aftermarket 4" lens barrell retrofits made though for the standards and Supers. I've seen quite a few 4" Barrell supers around and they work nicely.
Mark & CLACO

Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 11-21-2002, 09:17 PM:

Linsay, Simplex E-7's came from the factory with front and rear shutters. This was to compete with the other double shutter machines like Century CC and Brenkert BX-80's. These had two counter rotating shutters in the rear of the machine cutting the picture off top and bottom. E-7's shutters rotated on the same shaft in the same direction but since the picture flips in the lens did the same thing. Unfortunately the addition of CinamaScope and the scope lens the front shutters came off and rear blades widened to 90 degrees. Simplex made a front shutter kit for rear shutter Standard and Super projectors. These also had to come off when C/S came out.

You can find the Simplex serial number on most models prior to the XL on the back side of the main frame. You may have to remove the sight box and clean off some grease but it dhould be there about 1/3 down from the top. E-7's will start with an "E" in front of the number. If you want to e-mail me your Simplex serial number I can tell you what year it was made.

Aaron, Mark is correct on the fact the Standard did sag a little with a heavy lens. When scope came out the screen size got lots bigger. I new several theatres that installed new projectors, lamps, and mag sound to get a better presentation. Most of them kept their optical soundheads. Something we don't see often enough now.

I ran Standards up to the early 80's in a bargin house and the C/S lens manufactures had outboard mounts attached to front of the the Standard with a felt cradle to hold the heavy part of the lens.

Posted by Bill Mantz (Member # 754) on 11-21-2002, 10:15 PM:

Let see my oldest is my Simplex Standard is 1914. Here is the run down of Projectors and soundheads I own.
Simplex Standard 1914
Simplex Standard 1937
Simplex Super 1946
Simplex SH-1000 1946
Simplex XL Sound Head 1958
Others I have But don't have dates yet are
3 Super's
2 SH-1000
1 E-7
And the odd ball of the group is a Motiograph AAA Mag Penthouse reader, by the way dose any one know how I can get the date of the AAA Mag reader.
The picture to the left shows the
Super and SH-1000 From 1946 w/ the AAA Mag Penthouse.

Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 11-21-2002, 10:48 PM:

Ken,
Not sure why they were replaced except that my guess is that when Cinemascope came out they got the Mag Penthouse and X-L as a pair. But not sure. I do know we did have Mag though as we still use the mag surrounds as P-A speakers for the stage Microphone. The originals we E-7's

Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 11-22-2002, 04:25 AM:

Here is one of my Ernemann IX's from the Early 1950's

Posted by Thomas Hauerslev (Member # 566) on 11-22-2002, 04:33 AM:

My DP70 dates back to March 8, 1965 when it was installed in Folketeatret. In the basement I've got to handcranked silent machines from the beginning of the past century. One of them is Danish manufactured by DKF, the orther is a Hanh_Göertz I seem to recall. Does 16mm count as well? Then I've got a Siemens2000. Glad to see Mark's home machine!

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 11-23-2002, 01:26 AM:

I have no idea how old these would be, but I would love to find out, if anyone has any ideas ...... thanks

Century DAW2 - ser# 4323

Kalee Model 21 - ser# 211360

I bet they have lasted longer than any digital projector will ever last though! [Razz]

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 11-24-2002, 11:33 AM:

The Gaumont Kalee 21 projectors, were first produced in Leeds, UK in 1947. I have an old 'Kine Year Book' from that year with the advertisement, but unfortunately it is too badly faded to scan.

Posted by Tony Ratcliff (Member # 1196) on 11-25-2002, 01:11 PM:

Both of mine still are the orginal Simplex E-7s, with SH-1000 soundheads.
Lamphouses, etc. were upgraded to xenon in the 1970s, but the projector head and soundhead are still original to the theatre, which was built in 1938.

Tony

Posted by Michael Harlow (Member # 1353) on 11-25-2002, 03:59 PM:

I have a pair of BTH projectors. i'm not sure of the model, but a service engineer (Fred Lee) said they were probably around 85 years old. The have Kalee President carbon arc lamphouses on. The sound head was modified 9 years ago to take a stereo solar cell. They are still in working order, although removed from service.

Posted by Nathan Guerriero (Member # 1214) on 11-25-2002, 11:49 PM:

I have a pair of Century JJs (Biograph Theatre, Chicago), SN 147 and 148, which I imagine would put them somewhere in the 1960s.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 11-26-2002, 05:52 AM:

In a circuit with over 1,500 screens we have 4 Cinemeccanica RK60's (Victoria 8's) that have been in continuous drive-in use. They were first installed at Northland Twin Drive-in and then moved to the Coburg Triple Drive-in where they reside today. They are about to be aquainted with their 4th set of sound processors and 4th set of lamphouses.

David

Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 11-26-2002, 08:07 PM:

The oldest siver/gray Simplex XL I've seen was in The Muppet Movie-Iv'e painstakingly looked at the footage of it over & over to death-Don't know yet what the soundhead & lamphouse are,but the round flywheel casing on the soundhead has a vertical metal(nane?) plate on it.

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 11-26-2002, 10:59 PM:

The oldest I have (not in service) is an 1898 Optigraph made by Alvah Roebuck (later Motiograph)
I have operating in my twin screen four XLs all early serials...120, 132, 134, 167 .
All four heads are slightly different either in construction or design! All run VERY quiet!
I service XL serial #102 (Sorry Dick, I'm not going to tell you where it is!!)

Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 11-27-2002, 04:05 AM:

Oh Darn!! [puke]

Almost had #XL103 a few years ago.

Posted by Bernie Anderson Jr (Member # 410) on 11-28-2002, 08:06 PM:

two simplex supers 1930 on RCA 9050 from 1939. They were taken out of service in 1988 and sat around since last year when I got them. It's the steadiest picture you'll ever see. At my one theatre we have a Standard on Western Electric with the Vitaphone turntable.

Bernie

Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 1430) on 11-29-2002, 02:36 AM:

Thanks to Dick Prather for his info re my Simplex pair.
These are still in service and are about to get fired up again for the weekend in about 3 1/2 hours time.
They turn out to be Simplex Standards one with S/N 27009 is from 1927 and the other is S/N 43234 and from 1930.
So now with that info a little label will go on each showing their age... not the normal nice thing to do to a pair of grand old ladies but these are different.
An even older hand cranked model stands in the entry foyer and with S/N 18187, it is from 1922. It has been used a few times to screen nitrate film as a demo of how the old picture show men did things.
The light source is a Nicholas Powers condenser arc lamp with vertical burning carbons (black). Not the brightest of light sources but more than adequate to show how it used to be done. The light from this is quite cold compared to the mirror jobs of today.
Ten minutes of winding that handle gave me a great respect of the
showmen of old, they must have had pretty tough old arms to keep that up for 30 mins or more. [Smile]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-29-2002, 09:22 AM:

I know where XL's 104 and 105 are, as well as 112 and 116.
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-29-2002, 09:57 AM:

Dick: Does your Lumière Cinématogràphe work? At one stage the Bill Douglas Centre in Exeter had plans afoot to attempt to shoot, print and project some footage on modern stock using theirs, but ran into one tinsy little problem... it had no lens.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-29-2002, 05:40 PM:

The oldest projector a friend of mine has is a Powers #4, circa 1897.

Steve