Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Red Tint on Godfather 2

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-20-2002, 11:28 PM:

We just got a print of Godfather Part II and it seems to have a red tint to it. Yet the subtitles are perfectly white. The print itself even looks red running through the projector.

Is this some sort of fading? What could cause this?

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 11-20-2002, 11:37 PM:

Earlier eastman prints from before 1982 suffer from dye fading. Basically the cyan and yellow layers of the emulsion begin to fade, leaving red behind. Storage conditions have a big impact on dye fading. In 1982 Kodak developed LPP film stock which as far as we know doesnt fade nearly as bad as the pre '82 stuff.

Josh

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-21-2002, 12:18 AM:

I'm sure this print was stored improperly. Last week we had a print of Godfather 1 that had vinegar syndrome. We quickly sent that back for a reissue print from 5 years ago.

Posted by Mathew Molloy (Member # 666) on 11-21-2002, 04:44 AM:

Sounds like the same two prints I received in Seattle a couple years ago. I remember getting a replacement for the red print as well - but ran the vinegared print with no problems.

Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 1430) on 11-21-2002, 04:57 AM:

Joe,
Stick a Yellow/Green filter over the lens and most of the red tint will go away. It will colour the white background of the subtitles slightly greenish but not objectionable.
I have 65mm diam filter that fits over the lens of the Pro 35 nicely and a bit of sticky tape holds it in place.
Lindsay

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-21-2002, 08:08 AM:

If the print was made prior to about 1982, incorporated coupler print films will typically fade in a red-magenta direction, especially if they were stored improperly. Most prints in release are stored in unconditioned warehouse conditions, not the cool and dry conditions specified by SMPTE Recommended Practice RP131. "Vinegar Syndrome" is often a sign that triacetate film was stored under hot/humid conditions.

As noted, Kodak first introduced print films having much improved dye stability in 1979, with total conversion in 1982:

Kodak films 1960-1979

Kodak films 1980-present

I thought some new prints of the Godfather series were made on the much more stable Kodak print films since then. Likewise, weren't there some new dye transfer prints made?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-21-2002, 01:24 PM:

The whites stay white because there was no dye there to start with so it remains unaffected by the fading. Typically, the cyan dye fades most quickly, followed by yellow, with the magenta dye being the most robust. Thus the colors shift towards magenta. Because the fading varies across the image with the specific dye content there is no way to correct for it with a filter although you might find it subjectively more pleasing to use one. Fading sometimes can vary across the image depending on how it was stored. I have an old beat up mag/optical print with severe fading and shrinkage. Back when it could still make it through a projector (no longer possible) the fading actually pulsated which suggests the rolls spent many years without being moved and part of it was warmer than the other.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-21-2002, 01:42 PM:

Steve Kraus wrote: "...the fading actually pulsated which suggests the rolls spent many years without being moved and part of it was warmer than the other."

Yes, "convolution repeats" can happen, especially when the film case is stored near a heat source or has the sun shine on it daily for years without being moved. Another possibility is that the poor storage conditions (hot and humid) caused "vinegar syndrome", and the acid vapors tended to settle, affecting one side of the roll more than the other. The acetic acid vapors from "vinegar syndrome" can hurt dye stability. Vented storage in cool and dry conditions, or using Molecular Sieves in sealed containers, is recommended. See SMPTE Recommended Practice RP131.

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 08-28-2003, 01:48 AM:

The IMDB says that The Godfather was mono, but the 1997 re-release had DTS stereo. Was the optical track of the 1997 re-release still mono?

Is the DTS version the only stereo version of The Godfather?

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 08-28-2003, 07:40 AM:

It would be nice to find an IB Technicolor print of that movie to run in place of the faded one.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-28-2003, 08:09 AM:

quote:
It would be nice to find an IB Technicolor print of that movie to run in place of the faded one.

Or some new prints on Kodak VISION Color Print Film.

Were all the prints from the original 1974 release dye transfer? Or was there a mix of dye transfer and incorporated coupler print film (5381? 5383?)

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 08-28-2003, 12:26 PM:

quote:
The IMDB says that The Godfather was mono, but the 1997 re-release had DTS stereo. Was the optical
track of the 1997 re-release still mono?

One would assume that the optical (and digital) tracks were remixed for stereo. I would venture a guess that there may have been some 35mm and 70mm mag stereo prints of the original as well.

-Aaron

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 08-28-2003, 02:39 PM:

quote:
I would venture a guess that there may have been some 35mm and 70MM mag stereo prints of the orginal as well.

"The Godfather" and "Godfather, Part 2" were originally released
in 35mm IB Tech. (Flat / Mono) only. Both films were never released in the states in the 70MM format. The new stereo sound tracks for the prints and DVDs. Were created and remixed by going
back to the original sound elements at the studio. In doing this
they updated the soundtrack for the Digital preservation of the film. Paramount has done this on many of their films for DVD release.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-28-2003, 06:22 PM:

dts Stereo as in digital sound from dts discs or as in optical sound? There is also an analog format called dts Stereo which is basically the same as Dolby Stereo. It is very popular in Asia, but I do not know if it is regularly used to encode optical tracks on films here.

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 08-28-2003, 07:21 PM:

DTS stereo (optical):
I can't explain why, -but I seem to remember, this is the only thing, DTS did not get well away with. It just didn't sound good. System long gone by, I believe.

Per

Posted by Robert Harris (Member # 1712) on 08-28-2003, 08:30 PM:

Are you quite certain that this is "red," as in faded, or might it be one of the original prints which had a very sepia look to it.

What is the edge code?

RAH

Posted by Jesse August (Member # 1798) on 08-28-2003, 08:31 PM:

A couple of years ago we had a print of "Phantom of the Paradise". It was so red it was almost un watchable. Not to mention that in three runs (weekend midnight movie) it broke a total of twelve times. I have yet to encounter a print as brittle since. just one of my horror stories.

jesse

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-29-2003, 05:48 AM:

quote:
A couple of years ago we had a print of "Phantom of the Paradise". It was so red it was almost un watchable. Not to mention that in three runs (weekend midnight movie) it broke a total of twelve times. I have yet to encounter a print as brittle since. just one of my horror stories.

When multiple things are wrong like that (e.g., severe fading, brittle, shrunken, vinegar smell), it's likely the storage conditions were really bad. A hot, humid warehouse is NOT the best place to store film, but that's what often passed as a film exchange.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-29-2003, 06:54 AM:

quote:
System long gone by, I believe.

I am not sure. I saw the logo on several Asian prints (of recent movies) we played at the Berlin Film Festival last year. I also think I saw it in the credits of some Asian DVDs I watched in the last couple of months.

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 08-29-2003, 07:38 AM:

Mr. Harris made a very good point. Many scenes of Godfather 1 and 2, especially the interiors and flashbacks, had a very noticeable sepia tone (the interiors of the Long Island home are especially noticeable), and it's widely known that Coppola pressured Technicolor to keep the dye transfer lines open until the initial print run of G2 was complete as he felt he could get the best control over this subtle "look" to the film. Still if the outdoor scenes, which were never as spectacularly colorful as many films, show brown grass and trees you certainly have to look at actual fading as the culprit.

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 08-29-2003, 08:53 AM:

quote:
quote:System long gone by, I believe.

I am not sure. I saw the logo on several Asian prints (of recent movies) we played at the Berlin Film Festival last year. I also think I saw it in the credits of some Asian DVDs I watched in the last couple of months.

and I assume DTS stereo was used on those movies that have a DTS digital track but no Dolby. (like Legally Blond, Anti-trust and other non-dolby MGM movies)

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-29-2003, 11:52 AM:

I thought the 1997 re-release (25th Anniversary) of "The Godfather" had Dolby Digital, DTS Digital Sound and Dolby SR optical on the print. I never saw the release myself to verify it, but I specifically remember seeing a trailer for it where the DTS Digital Sound logo (not DTS Stereo) was prominently displayed. I think Coppola might be a DTS fan since I saw the same ad treatments on "Apocalypse Now Redux" trailers.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-29-2003, 09:15 PM:

quote:
I thought the 1997 re-release (25th Anniversary) of "The Godfather" had Dolby Digital, DTS Digital Sound and Dolby SR optical on the print.

Yes, that is correct. Both digital soundtracks Bobby mentions were used for this re-issue. There was a really distracting echo effect added to the dialog in the film.