Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Why do IB prints smell so bad?

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-22-2002, 07:42 PM:

Recently we ran Apocalypse Now, and this weekend we're running Rear Window. Both were nice relatively recent Technicolor IB prints on polyester stock. And both have smelled rather nasty. I'm not sure how to describe the smell. It's certainly not vinegar, but it is pungent, though it becomes less noticable after the cans have been open to the air for a while, but as you turn over a fresh wrap from a reel, it's still noticable.

So, what's the smell, and what causes it? It implies to me that something isn't stable about the IB process, and that there's still a reaction going on. Clues?

--jhawk

Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 11-22-2002, 07:57 PM:

FWIW, I recently ran a short, for a film festival, that had allegedly been Photoguarded (or at least that's what the note in the can claimed). Not only did the print have a bad mottle, it also had a strong, strange odor--sort of a cross between Pine-Sol cleaner and cat pee. (FilmGuard definitely does not smell like this!)

So, maybe the prints had some sort of protectant applied?

Posted by Bob Brown (Member # 1205) on 11-22-2002, 08:04 PM:

Second on the PHOTOGUARD.... When we run prints in IMAX that are Photogaurded the whole booth really stinks.... [thumbsdown]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-22-2002, 09:30 PM:

UV-cured polymer coatings can have a very pungent odor, especially if there are unreacted components.

I have found dye transfer prints to sometimes have a very slight (fishy? seaweed?) odor, but have never found it unpleasant. Historically, the image dyes have had a good reputation for stability.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-22-2002, 10:14 PM:

I've only noticed the 'dead fish' smell with new IB prints (on ESTAR-base stock). The old (pre-mid-1970s) IB prints that I have seen don't have this smell. I haven't personally handled nitrate IB prints, so I don't know what they smell like.

Agreed to the comments on Photoguard and its nasty smell. It does create an odd textured surface on the print, but that doesn't seem to affect sharpness when projected. The major problem with that process is that it can accelerate vinegar syndrome in acetate-base prints.

(Side note: a good fish store shouldn't smell "fishy" at all; the smell indicates that the product may not be fresh.)

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-22-2002, 10:26 PM:

The lack of smell on older dye transfer print may just be the age. I recall a similar maritime smell when I projected many IB prints from 1967-1970.

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 11-23-2002, 06:44 AM:

The intensity of the odor seems to vary with the print. Both dye-transfer prints I ran of "13th Warrior" had a strong 'maritime' smell. I don't remember my first-run print of "Apocalypse" having it at all. An "Apocalypse" print I saw recently, however, did have the smell, but not as strongly as I remember with the brand-new "Warrior" prints.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 11-23-2002, 01:51 PM:

Scott said:

quote:
I've only noticed the 'dead fish' smell with new IB prints (on ESTAR-base stock). The old (pre-mid-1970s) IB prints that I have seen don't have this smell. I haven't personally handled nitrate IB prints, so I don't know what they smell like.

I have handled, but never projected, dye transfer nitrate material; and have never noticed a 'fishy' smell to it. The only colour nitrate material I have projected was a short length of 1020s two colour cemented positive material, which didn't smell of anything much. I have a black and white nitrate print which has a sort of hospital/antiseptic smell to it, I don't know what this is, other prints don't seem to have it. This print is not decomposing, it is in very good condition.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 11-23-2002, 04:06 PM:

I noticed the fish smell on the recent "Gone With The Wind" (1999) prints. You could always tell which projector was playing it just by walking past and taking a whiff! That thing would shed like a monster, too.

=TMP=

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-23-2002, 07:48 PM:

Stephen Furley wrote: "I have a black and white nitrate print which has a sort of hospital/antiseptic smell to it, I don't know what this is, other prints don't seem to have it. This print is not decomposing, it is in very good condition."

That odor may be camphor, which was one of the plasticizers used during the days of cellulose nitrate prints to make the film more flexible. Smells kind of like "Vicks VapoRub"?

Posted by Stan Gunn (Member # 554) on 11-24-2002, 12:34 AM:

I have many IB nitrate short subjects, they all smell like old nitrate in good condition.
Matter of fact the IB tech film is in better condition than later B&W
nitrate. [Big Grin]

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 11-24-2002, 02:55 AM:

John Wrote:

quote:

That odor may be camphor, which was one of the plasticizers used during the days of cellulose nitrate prints to make the film more flexible. Smells kind of like "Vicks VapoRub"?

No, it's not camphor, most of the nitrate I have handled does smell of this, especially if you warm it up a bit by projecting it; there is usually a noticable smell of camphor in a projection box where nitrate is being run. This print does indeed smell slightly of camphor, but the other smell is different, and stronger. I have never smelt anything like it on another print, on any type of base.

When you first open the can the smell is quite strong, but almost disappears if the can is left open to the air for an hour or two; it comes back if the can is left closed for a few weeks, but is now much less strong than it was when I acquired the print. I think it may be something that the print has been treated with at some time in its life, and which is gradually being lost by evaporation. Apart from some dirt and scratching in the first minute or so, the prnt looks like new.

I don't keep this material at home, all the nitrate which I have, one feature, two shorts and a few short clips, is stored for me by an archive, in a proper nitrate vault. They also have most of the safety material that I no longer have room to store, they store it for me free of charge, I have access to it when I need it, and, in return, they can use it when they want to, subject of course to negotiations with whoever owns the rights. The film gets preserved, it is accessible to people who may want to see it, and it doesn't cost me anything. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

In my original post I should, of course, have said 1920s, not 1020s. I know colour film goes back a long time, but not that far!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-24-2002, 08:24 AM:

Stephen Furley wrote: "I don't keep this material at home, all the nitrate which I have, one feature, two shorts and a few short clips, is stored for me by an archive, in a proper nitrate vault. They also have most of the safety material that I no longer have room to store, they store it for me free of charge, I have access to it when I need it, and, in return, they can use it when they want to, subject of course to negotiations with whoever owns the rights. The film gets preserved, it is accessible to people who may want to see it, and it doesn't cost me anything. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me."

For those who have historically significant films, especially flammable nitrate, this is the proper way to keep them for posterity. [Smile]

Nitrate should NEVER be stored in an occupied residence or public place like a theatre, and belongs in a recognized film archive that properly stores nitrate films.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 11-24-2002, 09:13 PM:

Both of the 'recent' IB titles I have handled (GWTW '98 and Apt Pupil) had the 'dead fish' odor...

None of my 60s and 70s IB trailers have any smell.

-Aaron

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-25-2002, 12:21 AM:

I'd love to buy a nitrate feature or short but I have no idea how it would be legally transported other than personally by auto.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-25-2002, 01:57 AM:

Nitrate tends to have what I'd call a somewhat musty/acrid smell to it - I'd always assumed this was the nitric acid in the base itself (just as the 'vinegar' in vinegar syndrome is acetic acid in acetate). I haven't noticed any significant difference between nitrate IB and nitrate b/w.

As for transporting the stuff, this is a major headache, even for archives. Legally, nitrate film is covered by our Control of Substances Hazardous to Health (COSHH) Regulations 1999, which is an amendment to the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. This places legal restrictions on handling, storage and transport. The last time we had to send some down to London for duping, two couriers refused to take it altogether, and the third took a long time about it and charged us quite a bit. Here it is illegal under the H & S Act to carry any nitrate on public transport (maximum penalty is an unlimited fine and up to five years in jail) and you are almost certainly invalidating your motor insurance if you move it by private car.

I did once check with my insurer about this when collecting four reels of nitrate from a depositor: they wanted £80 just to extend my third party, fire and theft insurance to cover one single journey from Sunderland to Newcastle (12 miles) with about 3,500 feet of nitrate in the boot. That was ridiculous, IMHO, because that car also had 60 litres or so of petrol in it, which is every bit as dangerous as the nitrate but yet they don't charge you an extra premium for filling your tank up. We ended up using a courier firm who shall remain nameless, which delivered the reels using a motorbike!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-25-2002, 08:34 AM:

Here is Kodak Publication H-182 "Safe Handling, Storage, and Destruction of Nitrate-Based Motion Picture Films":

Handling Nitrate Film

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 11-25-2002, 09:11 AM:

The last time I ran a nitrate feature (about 15 years ago, 2000' changeover, one projectionist per projector) the print was shipped via FedEx. The shipping cans had "Explosive" labels.