Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Rewinding on Make-Up Tables

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Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 11-23-2002, 10:30 AM:

How many projectionists out there actually rewind on your platter make-up tables? Some have the capability and others don't, but do you use it if it's there? Or is it simply a better practice to rewind on a real rewind bench?

Pat

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-23-2002, 10:50 AM:

Yes and Yes!

There are those that use the MUT as a rewind bench if either that is all they have or it is in a pinch. One of the sterling qualities of the Strong/Potts MUT is that it can rewind and it has the gravity tensioned clutch.

However, with the above said...there is no substitute for the rewind bench. It is the proper way to rewind and inspect film.

Personally, I prefer a vertical style MUT (ala Christie) since gravity is on your side but you loose the rewind ability which I also like.

Steve

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 11-23-2002, 11:14 AM:

I have used Strong makeup tables to rewind before. This was because our rewind bench had been abused in the past and had its spindle half broken off, so we couldn't go too fast with it. I would use the makeup table to quickly reverse a reel from heads to tails or vice versa, just ZIP! and it was done. Then I would take it to our "busted-ass" rewind bench and inspect it there.

Great feature of that MUT and never had a problem.

=TMP=

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-23-2002, 11:20 AM:

I've often thought someone could make a nice bit of money making retrofit parts for the Potts/Strong MUT. One would be an adaptor bracket that goes between the feed arm and the machine body to turn the arm for vertical reel orientation, preventing nearly full reels from spilling all over (how much wear and damage has that caused over the years?). I haven't decided about the rollers but I think a single horizontal axis roller on the adaptor would suffice before the film rotates from flat to vertical. The other component would be a small work table attachment, size and placement to be determined. These two items would eliminate the major operational complaints about the MUT.

Keeping the wind spindle as present (and I've considered that maybe the retrofit ought to turn the whole table box to a vertical orientation) still leaves a spill problem on breakdown but I think that's less of an issue since the operator is going to be breaking the splice coming off the platter deck, reattaching the leader, then guiding the final few turns onto the reel and keeping it under control that way, not like during makeup when the feed reel must be left untouched while the splice is being made.

The 70mm version needs further work because the space allowed for the film to rotate orientation needs to be increased. The present arrangement makes me cringe.

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 11-23-2002, 11:36 AM:

Joe and I used to work in a 12-plex with all Strong equipment. We had two Kelmar rewind benches. I don't think we ever used the mutts rewind ability.

Some Thursday nights there could be two projectionists building up and breaking down prints and boy could they haul ass!

But I can see where it would be useful if no rewind bench was available.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-23-2002, 12:03 PM:

I'm guessing Strong is contemplating some possible changes to the MUT? If so you are in a unique position to beat out the competition.

Why not keep both parties happy? Keep the horizontal gravity clutch, but mount it where the rewind shaft is right now. Then lose that whole arm that extends out the side (it gets in the way of proper breakdown braking and stopping) and mount the rewind shaft vertically on the side. With only one additional roller (must be able to pivot such the the film would pull off of the reel with a 90 degree twist like the older SPECO tables) and the two rollers already on the vertical shaft, you would be able to rewind to keep those people happy and yet you would have the benefits of a vertical breakdown MUT too. Finally, when breaking down there would actually be a space to put the splicer! As it stands right now, the current design promotes the use of a roll of masking tape for leader re-attaching (which is a bad thing).

I can't draw to save my life, but I could "stage" simulated pictures to visually express the configuration if Strong is interested in the concept.

As for the specific question, I do not permit buildup/inspection on a MUT, nor do I allow projectionists to build reel by reel to the platter. A rewind bench is the proper place for such things. However in a booth that only has one rewind bench, I can see the benefit of having a rewindable MUT sitting beside the bench to reverse the next reel on the buildup while the current reel is being inspected. Most every booth has 2 rewind tables though, so this isn't really much of an issue.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-23-2002, 12:24 PM:

I have never used the Strong MUT to do any rewind work. I have, however, used the ORC MUT to break down trailer packs from a collapsable split reel. But I have never rewound a reel on it. I prefer rewind benches, if possible.

Maybe if Brad could draw a "stick MUT" expressing his concept, I could use it to draw something that resembled reality more closely. How about it Brad? Any chance to improve the world! [Smile]

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 11-23-2002, 12:42 PM:

We use the MUTS for rewinding. That's all we have, and personally, I like them. If I had my choice, (which I usually do) I would take the old CFS MUT hands down over Strong's MUT. Some of my booths are not big enough to handle a rewind bench. Sometimes I have all I can do to find a spot to park a MUT!

It is what you get used to. Some people swear by the bench, some swear at them. I swear at them.

Pat, if you guys are going to modify the MUT, please don't screw it up any more than it is. [puke]

Make it better. A bigger table top comes to mind on this one, namely a top that can handle 6,000 foot reels and still have enough room to safely use the splicer. Another thing is take all those spring-loaded buffer rollers off, and adjust the height of the table to match the height of the center platter.

Those are the biggest thorns in the butt!

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 11-23-2002, 01:26 PM:

Two weeks ago I fitted a spindle with clutch onto the side of my Kinoton MUT so we can fast wind parts to tail out ready for make up on the electric bench rewinder.
It's much quicker than using the electric bench rewinder and encourages preparation of all the parts prior to actually making the print up onto 6000' spools.
That way print make up is a one pass process rather than the constant rewinding and making up of parts when they are a mixture of head or tail out.
We are lucky as we have a complete spare non-rewind, apart from no rollers on the column, just for making up and breaking down prints on.

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 11-23-2002, 02:02 PM:

I'm asking the question as much out of curiosity as for any potential redesign. We've kicked ideas around in the past and that's basically what we're doing now. Appreciate the interest and input.

That gravity tensioned clutch is as simple and effective (and cost effective) as anything I know of. The problem as most know is losing film that's out near the edge of the reel while you're threading up or making a splice. The vertical table has it's advantages in other ways but clutching becomes another issue, and it's clumsy as heck to try and rewind easily on.

70mm Steve? Wouldn't that be nice to see a few prints...

Pat

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 11-23-2002, 03:26 PM:

Pat, if the table is going to be re-designed, please take into consideration the existing table won't allow rewinding of previews on the orginal core. The drive spindle won't handle the raw rewinding like the CFS tables do.

Also the existing spindles are mounted too high off the table top. It is too easy for the film to tie itself into a knot on the spindle itself.

Some reels come too full. This causes film to unwind itself while attempts are made to actually rewind the reel for one reason or another.

I would recommend the use of the standard 5/16 shaft with a key in it like the olden days so it fits all shipping reels, not just a few. If 6,000 foot reels are used that have a 1/2-inch bore, supply a bushing that will slip over the 5/16 shaft.

The existing drive spindle will work just fine with a few simple modifications.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-23-2002, 03:51 PM:

I'd also go with the composite idea. We have 1978 vintage ORC CP-302 platters at our drive-in. The MUT that was manufactured at that time had two side-mounted spindles. One is directly driven by a gear reducton motor, which I personally like better than the Strong setup (belt slippage, etc). the other side is not driven, but has an internal clutch for tension. With rollers on both sides of the MUT, you can wind film onto the platters from either side, and also rewind.

I avoid making up directly to the platter, though late film deliveries of sub-run co features sometimes makes that difficult. The ORC design works well in that scenario. We also have no problems with film spillage, and the ORC MUT can handle very large reels.

That being said, I strongly prefer making up and inspecting on the bench. We have the Kelmar rewinder at our indoor house, which seems to be a common fixture around here. We wind onto large reels, then transfer to the platter... and yes... we keep plenty of junque film around to keep reel ends off the metal cores. The changeable spindles make recorring trailers a breeze (sorry, Paul!!!)

There's a lot about the Strong MUT that I like. As for dreaming up changes though, I'd like to see the convenience of the side-mounted drive, possibly something less prone to slippage (gear belt?... if not a gear reduction motor), keep the gravity-clutched feed spindle (yah... move it to the center).

Of course, this would aggravate the problem with splicer positioning that's been a topic here... especially if you're transferring 6,000+ ft reels from the center spindle. Where would you put the splicer then???

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-23-2002, 05:20 PM:

Paul, Strong/Potts has a trailer flange for their MUT. It uses those two large holes on the circular plate to drive it. Thus you can make up and breakdown previews on the MUT with the original cores.

Steve

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 11-23-2002, 05:39 PM:

My CFS machines do....but my Strong's dont! [Mad]

But maybe there is something available. I don't know. I\ll have to check that out.

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 11-23-2002, 05:57 PM:

Yep -- it's a #3930 Trailer Flange Adapter. It's a 23.5" diameter flange that fits onto the spindle drive. T'ain't cheap, but it's available.

I've never thought belt slip was a problem with the Strong make-up tables. The mechanical advantage of the pulley ratio doesn't require much belt tension and I'm unaware of any slippage that would occur. If anything, I think our table might actually run too fast but many operators like the capability when they've "gotto have it".

The problem with the normal keyed 5/16" shaft, of course, is the darn keys break so easily. The "drive dog" is more reliable but makes use of standard flanges a problem.

Pat

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-23-2002, 06:05 PM:

Pat, what is that huge black flange with the folded over edges that can handle 6000' cores of film? Is that a Strong product, or someone else's designed to fit onto the Strong MUT? Other than it being easily bent, it works quite well.

I haven't seen any indication of slipping on any of the Strong MUTs I have worked with.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 11-23-2002, 06:06 PM:

That's what I was talking about. If you try to wind a preview on a standard 1-inch core, forget it. The drive dog is in the way, flange or no flange.

The keys in the CFS tables last for about 20 years. If they are hardened steel, I don't see where it would be a problem. The drive dog could still be used....for the 6,000 foot reels to reduce the tension on the key of the 5/16" shafts.

As an added note, the 5/16 keyed shaft would fit all 2000 foot shipping reels, not just a few.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-23-2002, 06:18 PM:

But if they put a keyed shaft on the tables, just how many threaded holes would they have to have so that reels could fit onto the keyed part and ALSO line up with the drive pin holes?

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 11-23-2002, 06:32 PM:

Good point, Brad.

I don't think that would be too big a problem. The drive dog would be used for 6,000 foot reels anyway. The remaining 2000 foot reels could use the key, just like that have been doing ever since platters were offered in the market.

As far as the 5/16 keyway shaft is concerned, I remember only two keys actually breaking in the last 35 years I have been in the booth.

Those keys have been in the 1/16 standard shaft for what....almost a hundered years now?

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 11-23-2002, 07:50 PM:

That #3930 mentioned earlier is that black flange with the bent edges. That trailer flange sells more overseas, where film very often comes to the theatres just wound on a core and a piece of cardboard between reels -- no exchange reel in site. You have to have the flange or a plate to handle it. The horizontal table is desired in many areas for that reason, as they regard vertical handling of the film dangerous without a more expensive split reel. They can place the film roll right on the flange and go straight onto the platter. Most rolls are 1800-2000ft, but when they do exchanges between theatres they sometimes do it in 6000ft increments.

Maybe I'm over sensitive about the 5/16" drive key, just seems like they were a problem. Other than handling cores it's generally not too much of an issue. Paul, you probably treat them better than most.

Pat

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 11-23-2002, 07:54 PM:

Anyway, I bumped an old thread back to the top so some of you can see what I was addressing about the preview cores. One picture shows that very clearly.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-23-2002, 09:01 PM:

I, personally, do not like the idea of keyed spindles used for Make-up break down. Despite Paul's experience, I've seen countless dozens of keys break in the last couple of decades. Furthermore, depending on the reel, the part that engages the key is sharp and will cut through it. Even Kelmar offered the "extended key" to deal with those reels.

As to the Strong flange, Paul, you remove the dog pin (screw). The flange uses the dog to drive it and all that is sticking up is the 1" core drive.

Steve

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 11-23-2002, 09:18 PM:

Steve, you must have a trailer flange that must have been specially made for what you are describing. The core holder I use was made by another company (Newmade, I think), and it has a slot that matches the key in the 5/16 inch shaft on the CFS tables. I'll have to check and see if Strong's flange has provisions to engage on the drive spindle since it has no key on the 5/16-inch shaft like CFS and the older Potts had.

In fact, I'll take a picture of the Strong spindle and post it tomorrow.

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 11-23-2002, 09:22 PM:

Sometimes at the Skyline drive-in our prints show up only a half hour before showtime! We are out in the sticks and print delivery time to us varies considerably. Sometimes one or two reels of the feature will be tails out and I use the Strong makeup table to rewind the reel because it goes like a bat out of hell in order to meet showtime deadline.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-23-2002, 09:30 PM:

Brad--what booths have multiple rewind benches? That only seems to be common in either a) large multiplexes with multiple booths (one rewind bench per booth) or b) older single-screen houses that have both a handcrank bench and a motorized bench. I've never seen two motorized rewind benches near each other in a single booth.

I haven't worked with Strong platters, so I can't comment on their MUT, but I will say that I like the Christie vertical MUT. If it had rewind capability, I'd probably never use it. I make up prints onto 6000' reels at a proper rewind bench and them down onto shipping reels on the MUT. It would be nice to have a MUT with both "dog-drive" (for normal use) and "key-drive" (for breaking prints down onto cores using a split reel).

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 11-23-2002, 09:44 PM:

Ken, if you have a trailer flange like Steve mentioned that works on a Strong MUT or even one like I mentioned that works on a CFS/older Potts MUT, you can rewind a 2-1/2 minute preview like a double bat out of hell in less than 15 seconds. [Smile]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-23-2002, 10:23 PM:

Paul,

Yes it is a special trailer flange...part #3930 by Strong/Potts (Design and Manufacturing).

If I can get some pics, I'll post them.

Steve

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 11-23-2002, 10:35 PM:

Cool. Thanks, Steve. I'll have to get one. [Smile]

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 11-23-2002, 11:29 PM:

Strong's CDROM has some details on the #3930 Flange. Can't remember if I put something on the website or not, have to check on that. If it's not there, it will be in a day or so...

Pat

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-24-2002, 01:47 AM:

I found a picture of the flange I am talking about. I will take pictures tomorrow showing how it mounts to the Strong MUT.

Posted by Mark Maxwell (Member # 1355) on 11-24-2002, 01:57 AM:

I have to build up and break down with a MUT right onto the platter. We don't have a station to do build up or break down. When I build up, I kneel next to the MUT and use the controlls with my right hand. If I slow down the platter I brake the reel with my fingertips. When I breakdown, I kneel on the other side of the MUT working the controles with my left hand under the table(careful enough theat I don'd reach too short and get my finger cought in the belt). If I have to slow the speed Of the MUT I brake the platter with the edge of the palm of my right hand. I never perform either task to the point where the film will get damaged. Usually by the time a platter and the reel stop moving, I actually have the perfect amaount of slack in the film. One thing that helps is that I grew up on a farm so my hands are tough. I've been in booths that have those realy flat platters that don't have that lip that folds down and I cringe at the thought of having to grab one of those platters. By the way, hopefully soon I can get some pictures of the booth on here. Because of support railing it's five feet tall, It has 6 norelco FP20's converted to the platter system, with automatic lens changind devices that don't work anymore, pluss DTS added on. T

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-24-2002, 02:02 AM:

I rarely need a keyed shaft for the Strong MUT, but when the need arises (and it does) I find that I can put a small broken allen wrench into the hole that is by the center shaft. I remove the drive pin and it works perfectly. The allen does not break or bend. I should get a picture of this in operation. Total cost: less than a buck.