This is topic End of NATIONAL Carbons... in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 11-26-2002, 11:05 PM:
 
I have received notice that effective Jan. 1, 2003, the arc carbon line known as National Specialty Carbons will be discontinued!
They are presently selling existing inventory. Production will cease the first of the year! It is sad to see an icon like National become history! I know there are many out there who have pushed Nationals through some of the best carbon arc lamps made!!
I will surely miss them!! I was proud to be a National dealer for many years!
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-26-2002, 11:33 PM:
 
Welcome back John!

This was briefly mentioned here.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-26-2002, 11:38 PM:
 
It is sad to see the end of that era. National was one of those "loyalty" brands that made it hard to consider anything else. Either that, or everything else was so ie that making the choice was easy.

Too bad they couldn't have transitioned to xenon, and carried over the same quality.

Does anyone know how this will affect operators of those old carbon arc searchlights? Last time I got up close to one, it was running on Nationals & the owner said the number of available suppliers was shrinking.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-26-2002, 11:41 PM:
 
So does this mean that Marble is the only remaining supplier of carbons in the US?
 

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Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 11-27-2002, 12:14 AM:
 
Yes, what about the carbon arc searchlights? There are still plenty of advertising searchlights out there and they (mostly) all use carbons. There are still people using carbon arc followspots in stage shows, too.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-27-2002, 07:41 AM:
 
I don't know about the searchlights (I'd love to run one someday), but followspots seem to burn carbon much more slowly than film projectors and also probably aren't used anywhere near as much (how many places run followspots for 2+ hours per day, every day?), so the market is probably smaller.

Hopefully the carbon manufacturers will realize that they aren't going to be gaining any more customers and will only lose existing accounts as they convert to xenon; thus, the best that they can do is provide excellent quality and service to existing customers in hopes that they will feel less need to convert.

I wouldn't want to run carbon all day every day, and I know that xenon is cleaner and healthier, but I do enjoy running carbon booths and hope that the existing installations don't feel the need to convert anytime soon.
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 11-27-2002, 08:22 AM:
 
We converted to xenon in Oct. 2001. The last 18 months we used them Nationals sputtered, popped, hissed and produced the worst light imaginable. About 65% did not have a functional core and made only dim yellow light. And that was when we could get them. After a long and excellent history they are doing the right thing after throwing away all their quality control. Undoubtedly though the production space devoted to carbons is much needed for products for which there is a very much larger demand. National is a division of Morgan Specialty Graphite.
 

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Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 11-27-2002, 04:45 PM:
 
I would like to learn who is manufacturing a good carbon these days as when I get my project up and going next year it is my intention to use a carbon arc changeover system. I have compared xenon to carbon light over the years and have come to the conclusion that carbon provides a "warmer" light with more vivid colors than xenon which, IMO, is a "cold" blue light. The vast majority of xenon screens I've seen have been underlit. Yes, it'll cost me about $2,500 a year more to operate with carbons but I want to give my patrons the best possible picture and sound in my single screener. The corporate big boys have been emphasizing cutting overhead to the point that they seem to make that the primary target in their 'plexes and have totally ignored the quality of their houses screen performances.

So, since National is biting the dust, if anyone can suggest a good alternative I'd really appreciate it.
 

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Posted by Gordon Bachlund (Member # 124) on 11-27-2002, 05:24 PM:
 
Robert, I am researching carbon suppliers and will have some suggestions soon.

I have purchased some Marble Double Eagle carbons (made in Japan) and am encouraged. I'll keep you posted.
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 11-28-2002, 12:57 AM:
 
Films have been color timed for correct color with xenon for quite some time and will actually be as the film makers intended when projected using xenon. There is no longer any practical reason to beat your head against the failing supply and quality wall of carbon. We used Marble as often as we could get them because they were far better than Nationals but they got inconsistent in quality too. If carbons had been in good supply and of respectable quality we would not have changed, it is now too late.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-28-2002, 12:06 PM:
 
Re: Advertising searchlights

I haven't seen a good one in a long time. Those units with multiple little dancing xenon lamps are so pathetically dim compared to the big WWII carbon arc searchlights that you can see for 20 miles. I remember once asking an operator of such a machine what sort of current levels he was running at and it didn't seem that much different than a large theatre lamp and if that's the case then it really must be a function of the huge mirror. I wonder if any of those have been converted to xenon and keeping the high light output.
 

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Posted by Jon Bartow (Member # 241) on 11-28-2002, 02:37 PM:
 
take a look at that casino in Vegas (the Mirage?) the big piramid. It has a couple of dozen xenon lights on the top aiming straight up. I don't remember exactly how many there, but I do remember that they are all 7k bulbs. Supposedly the beam of light can be easily seen by the crew on the space shuttle. Take a look at it Here
Notice the well armored person holding a xenon bulb over a currently running lamp. What's he doing? Inspecting the bulb?
 

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Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 11-29-2002, 12:42 AM:
 
>> that casino in Vegas (the Mirage?) the big piramid. It has a couple of dozen xenon lights on the top aiming straight up. I don't remember exactly how many there, but I do remember that they are all 7k bulbs.<<

The casino in question is the Luxor, and there is quite a bit more than a couple dozen 7KW xenons on the tip. There are FIFTY 7000w PerkinElmer xenon lamps on the tip of the structure, though they haven't run all 50 since around 1996 when the FAA told Luxor to reduce the light level...They do run them all on the 4th of July and New Years Eve, however.

When all 50 are lit the beam can be seen on a clear day as far away as Los Angeles and Denver...

-Aaron
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-29-2002, 10:06 PM:
 

quote:

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it didn't seem that much different than a large theatre lamp and if that's the case then it really must be a function of the huge mirror.

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I don't know what the current was, but every one of the GE searchlights I've seen ran 16mm positives. The largest H.I. projection carbon was 13.6mm, which could be run as much as 160 amperes.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-29-2002, 10:25 PM:
 
Aaron said:
When all 50 are lit the beam can be seen on a clear day as far away
as Los Angeles and Denver...

I wonder if, when seen from so far away, an angle off the vertical is apparent due to curvature of the earth.
 

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Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 1430) on 11-30-2002, 02:50 AM:
 
Robert,

I guess you may intend running 6 & 7mm combinations in your planned theatre or maybe even 7 & 8mm if you reckon you need more light.Both these size combinations of carbons are still currently available from Japan.
I do not know exactly where in Japan as I purchase mine from Carbon Imports in Christchurch New Zealand at a very good price compared to what I used to pay buying them over the counter in Australia.
I used to use Marble/Double Eagle but the price went thru the roof a few years ago so I tried out a batch from NZ and could find no difference between them and Marble so switched over.
These are called Sunny Carbons and made by Daiichi Carbon Co Japan.
If anything the burn rate is a little slower than Marble used to be but even when I deliberately mixed them up in the box, so I never really knew what was on the screen, there was no discernable difference.
With 6 & 7mm at just under 50 amps on a 10m scope screen the light is brilliant.
If you cannot find a source to import these in the states email me and I will give you contact details of Carbon Imports... only has snail mail still I think.

Lindsay
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-30-2002, 09:49 AM:
 
Sorry, but everytime I see this topic I think it should say "The Crater of National Carbons!"

I still have a baby arc lamp. Strong...approx 8" reflector...single screw drive...uncoated carbons.
 

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Posted by Daryl Lund (Member # 356) on 12-01-2002, 12:38 AM:
 
John Is the national carbon rod plant for sale? Dose it take a lot of space and what about the EPA do thay screw with national? I think that it would be cool to move the plant to the NW.I own a couple of big buildings that could house National. But I do not how big of a building it would take.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-01-2002, 12:45 AM:
 

quote:

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I have compared xenon to carbon light over the years and have come to the conclusion that carbon provides a "warmer" light with more vivid colors than xenon which, IMO, is a "cold" blue light.

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quote:

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Is the national carbon rod plant for sale? Dose it take a lot of space

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Pictures I've seen of the pitch plant look like it occupied 10-20 acres alone. However, if you're thinking of contracting the manufacture out, the "new" National Carbon Co. could be nothing more fancy than several heavy-duty shelves in a corner of your home.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-02-2002, 02:45 PM:
 
Issue #10 of the National Carbon Bulletins shows how carbons were made at their plant in Fostoria, Ohio:

http://www.film-tech.com/manuals/CARBONBULLETINS.pdf

Lots of testing to assure quality (they even were x-rayed to look for internal defects).
 

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Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 12-02-2002, 03:30 PM:
 
Thanks for the replys guys. And I'll keep that in mind Lindsay and Brad. Look forward to hearing from you Gordon.
 

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