Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: AMC Sound

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-10-2002, 08:42 PM:

Does AMC put in only SDDS on new builds? And do they do 8 channels on them or does it vary with the screen size?

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 12-10-2002, 08:50 PM:

FWIW, the AMC River East 21 in Chicago is fairly new, and when you click on the "Digital Surround Sound" icon under that theater's amenities, it says:

quote:
Don't let your eyes have all the fun. Find yourself engulfed in a multidimensional cinematic sound environment. AMC uses Sony Dynamic Digital Sound,TM the leader in digital sound technology. You'll hear the difference.

Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 12-10-2002, 09:10 PM:

They only buy SDDS now, but theatres that were taken over kept whatever sound formats they used before.
Not sure if they are adding SDDS to those or not.
Im not sure about 8 channel, but my theatre is 3 years old and has no 8 channel houses in the building.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-10-2002, 09:30 PM:

SDDS is definitely NOT the leader in digital sound technology. In fact I'd be willing to bet that they are in DEAD LAST PLACE! Dolby Digital seems to be #1.

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 12-10-2002, 09:39 PM:

I think if the auditoriums are set up for 8 channel depends on the size of the auditorium and when it was setup.

For instance The Grand in Dallas has 8 out of 24 screens equipped for 8 channel playback. Though I couldn't say anything about their new gigaplexes.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 12-10-2002, 10:29 PM:

That's a shame. Because when you have big films like Star Trek opening that Only features Dolby Digital and DTS from what I have heard. I guess they just won't be playing it in the splender of digital sound. [Smile]

My favorite is DTS but Dolby is the widest used digital process.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-10-2002, 10:56 PM:

Darryl, that's exactly why I was asking. I was contemplating using Star Trek as an excuse to check out the new AMC River East 21 and having screened it twice I know that it's SR-D and DTS only. (I ran one screening a few weeks back SR-D and this afternoon I ran it in DTS).

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 12-10-2002, 11:21 PM:

As is obvious from many of my posts on this forum, I am a friend of SDDS. However, practical reality makes it advisable to have other digital formats installed as well. I think the best solution is to also have Dolby Digital or dts, the latter preferably as a mobile solution since it is so easy to move it around following dts films. The DFP-D3000 makes it very easy to have up to three digital formats installed even with multiple fallback through all formats.
Even though there still are some reliabilty issues which are usually due to sloppy printing of the tracks, I still think that SDDS can be the best sounding format provided the playback systems are good enough. However, it must be said that many screens have sound systems which are less good than they could be, and then it does not make a big difference which digital format is used.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-11-2002, 06:43 AM:

I find it odd that anyone would buy SDDS for a six-channel (5.1) house now that there aren't (to my knowledge) any SDDS-exclusive releases. I am a fan of film mixes intended for five screen channels, but those are sadly few and far between.

How does the cost of the SDDS 3000 processor compare with that of the cat701/CP650 or DTS6D with CP65?

If I were building a multiplex, I'd probably put in a mix of SRD (which has the best print availability, by far) and DTS (which I think sounds better than SRD or DTS and which will play perfectly even on damaged prints...if the disks arrive). I'd consider having an 8-channel house with SDDS, but I'd also put in SRD or DTS and use SDDS only for 8-channel films.

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 12-11-2002, 07:33 AM:

There are some fairly recent AMC houses in my area. They have SDDS in all of the rooms, with additional Dolby Digital in a few of the huge rooms, and additional DTS in a few of the others. The one I am most familiar with is a 24-screener, with the 4 biggest rooms in the center.

I'd be curious to know if they are still building with the Torus screens...they look good, but the sound gets very weird in those rooms.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-11-2002, 10:24 AM:

I was working with AMC in the Philly market when they decided to put SDDS in everywhere. All of our "big" houses, which were set up as 4 channel analog were converted to 8 track digital, and all of our "small" houses which were set up as front-surround analog were converted to six track digital (and four channel analog).

Also, when the Lion King was released, Disney cut a deal that was something to the effect of "If you show it in Dolby Digital, we'll give you a really big box office cut." So, AMC saw fit to install ONE Dolby Digital system in each multiplex showing the Lion King, and they're still there to this day. They were CP65s with the outboard digital processor (DA 10 I think - or something like that).

Later, DTS's were installed in some houses for - get this - the Jurassic Park II *TRAILER* along with the strobe lights which fired off in sync with the lightning. That was an extremely cool effect in my opinion. There may have been other motives behind the DTS install (like getting ready for the JP movie), but that was the reason given at the time.

I'm currently at an AMC multiplex (not megaplex), and we have SDDS-8 in four houses, and the rest are all 6. We also have two DTS', one of which is working, the other keeps losing the time code, and I can't figure out what its problem is. I might have to swap the readers around and see what happens. I'm not sure what the megas do, but I imagine they are all SDDS as well, with maybe a small handful of Dolby & DTS.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 12-11-2002, 11:39 AM:

The good thing about SDDS is that you can install it with 6 channels and later upgrade easily to 8 if the need arises.

Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 12-11-2002, 01:36 PM:

"I'd be curious to know if they are still building with the Torus screens...they look good, but the sound gets very weird in those rooms."

I believe they stopped with the Torus screen all together.
From what I hear, all the new theatres are installed with perforated screens with speakers beind the screen instead of above.

Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 12-11-2002, 01:38 PM:

James S is correct: The GCC-turned-AMC theaters keep whatever sound formats they had. When I saw The Ring at the AMC Essex Green in West Orange NJ -- an all-stadium 9-plex built by GCC -- there was a Dolby Digital snipe between the "Feature Presentation" snipe and the start of the feature.

The AMC Empire in Times Square opened as a new build in 2000. Since the "Top of the Empire" (halls 19-25) is upmarket/arthouse, AMC may have installed Dolby Digital for at least that floor.

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 12-11-2002, 03:34 PM:

From what I understand, AMC has abandoned the Torus screen, I believe that there was even discussion that they were removing the installed screens slowly. Would be nice to see AMC take more care with the acoustics of their auditoriums. They still need to add some sound absorbing materials to the walls however.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-11-2002, 05:47 PM:

Most AMC Theaters screens are wired for 5.1 SDDS, not 7.1. In a typical new AMC 24-plex you might have 4 to 8 screens wired for SDDS 7.1.

AMC doesn't install SDDS exclusively. When the AMC Grand opened in Dallas, I recall the theater having 2 DTS machines and either 2 or 4 Dolby Digital machines as well. A lot of AMC sites will have at least a couple Dolby Digital or DTS machines either fixed in the largest theaters or put in rollaround carts.

The big problem with AMC Theatres and their sound systems is their STUPID habit of installing the surround array speakers all the way up into the ceiling. Either the speaker drivers are mounted at the top of the wall next to the drop-ceiling, or the speakers are actually installed IN the ceiling with the drivers facing downward. PISS POOR SOUND SYSTEM DESIGN. The method is used only for making it easy and cheap to wire up surround speakers. It has absolutely nothing to do with improving sound quality.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-11-2002, 06:06 PM:

The Loew's Universal Cineplex here in Orlando is an all-SDDS theater. They put SDDS next to everything on the marquee. In fact, they were the only theater in the world showing "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" in SDDS. [Roll Eyes]

=TMP=

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 12-11-2002, 06:16 PM:

Hey, that sounds just like Regal Cinema World 8 here! They show EVERYTHING in Dolby Digital, including Greek Wedding!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-11-2002, 07:07 PM:

Usually the 4 larger centre theatres have the SDDS8 channel setup

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-12-2002, 09:05 AM:

quote:
The big problem with AMC Theatres and their sound systems is their STUPID habit of installing the surround array speakers all the way up into the ceiling.

They moved away from that in their larger houses for a while, and instead installed something they called "Century Sound Arrays" - IMHO an equally stupid idea. These arrays house 17 speakers in one cabinet all pointing in different directions. They put two in - one on the left and one on the right, and they were supposed to create a better sound field than the speakers in the ceiling. But what actually happened was that the surround moved from the ceiling to two points in space slightly behind you. I don't know what they do with their surrounds now.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 12-12-2002, 10:22 AM:

Who thinks up these strange speaker array models for AMC?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-12-2002, 10:37 AM:

Probably an accountant.

(I have nothing against accountants, but they should be no more involved in the design of theatre sound systems than sound engineers should be involved in the preparation of corporate financial statements.)

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 12-12-2002, 12:33 PM:

quote:
They show EVERYTHING in Dolby Digital, including Greek Wedding!

My Big Fat Greek Wedding was Dolby SR.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 12-12-2002, 12:43 PM:

quote:
My Big Fat Greek Wedding was Dolby SR.

Exactly. I should have added [Roll Eyes]

when I said "They show everything in Dolby Digital including Greek Wedding". [Wink]

Their marquee always has the Dolby Digital logo next to every movie, regardless of what format it's actually playing in. The sad part is they have the marquee logo things for DTS and SDDS too but they never use them.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 12-12-2002, 01:28 PM:

I am gald to hear AMC is mooving away from the stupid non-perferated screens. This has been the reason that i absolutely REFUSE tosee a movie at AMC. I hate being halfway up the screen and still below the sound field. I remember when they first opened the AMC 20 in Mission Valley, Some employe (mabey even a projectionist or manager) was bragging about how much higher the image quality was because of the new Torro screens. [puke]

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-12-2002, 02:56 PM:

Not all of AMCs screens are non-perf. Only about roughly half. We have four "big" houses with SDDS 8. Two are tri-amped front speakers, non perf screens (one of which is Torus), and two are bi-amped front speakers and perf screen. That's the combination they use - or at least they did when they built our theater. Of the remaining "small" houses, the same combination is used: Bi-amp/perf, Tri-amp/non-perf.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-12-2002, 03:43 PM:

Why would they do non perf on a screen that was not Torus? That's a huge sacrifice for no gain. OK, maybe a little gain in it being brighter.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-12-2002, 04:01 PM:

As I recall, the "black holes" of normal perforations reduce light efficiency by only about 5 percent. The new microperf (MP) screens even less.

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 12-12-2002, 04:18 PM:

When the AMC Grand 24 in Dallas opened in '94 it had 4 Dolby DA-20's in roll around mini-racks. there were 10 Dolby readers (probably either 699 or 700's) There were also 2 DTS units also on roll arounds, 2 Readers 10 auditoriums wired to accept the DTS units as well (same houses) All 24 Screens were SDDS the 8 largest were 8 channel the rest were 6 channel. 8 largest screens were also Torus screens. The rest of the screens were no-perforated with the speakers above and below the screen.

Screen and Sub speakers were from EAW,
Surrounds from Community (2 surrounds PER-Auditorium - one on each side) The surrounds have since been replaced, don't know what with though.

Annother down side was discovered during the rocket launch scene in Apollo 13, the strong bass sent ripples up the screen that were visable during the movie.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-13-2002, 08:36 AM:

quote:
Surrounds from Community (2 surrounds PER-Auditorium - one on each side)

Thanks, Jason. "COMMUNITY". I said "Century", but I think "Community" IS the correct name for them. My bad. Sorry for that.

Mark

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 12-13-2002, 09:02 AM:

It was a couple of years ago, but I'm pretty sure I remember "Community" being stenciled on the crates that they were shipped in. The speaker was an odd shaped creature, about the size of a small "dorm" sized refrigerator.

On their own they may not have sounded bad, but as a surround they were HORRIBLE. I remember that after they put a few in they had a professor of acoustical engineering come out from some university. He ran some tests, and he confirmed what we thought as we were installing them. They were just WRONG for this application. When EQing the auditorium, set the surrounds to 83dB in the center of the auditorium, you had close to 90dB on the row that the surrounds were placed and 73dB on the front row!

Last time I was there they had removed the arrays and now had 2 puny surrounds on each side (at least they were getting closer) mounted in the corner where the ceiling meets the wall about 1/2 and 3/4 back from the screen. A noticiable improvement, but STILL not good.

Also their auditoriums are very echo-y even on the non-torus screens. I attribute this as there is NO sound absorbing materials on the walls.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-13-2002, 09:24 AM:

Why are they trying so hard to be stupid? Do they think everyone else does things a certain way because they like spending money cavalierly?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-14-2002, 07:15 PM:

Sure the system sounds good, sure it noe tracks better and the tracks seem to last longer, but for me its hard to believe that SDDS is even still around. Now that several studios have stopped doing any SDDS tracks at all perhaps once and for all they will disappear. The latest biggie that lacks SDDS is Star Trek Nemesis.
Mark

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-14-2002, 09:34 PM:

I saw that last night at an AMC house featuring The Screen that Sucks. SDDS & DTS on that screen from what I could see so saved by the disk, right? Wrong. They never got the disks, they said.

Overall the SR sound was ok but the funny thing was there were a few dropout-like anomolies in the sound which was rather puzzling for analog. Not unlike what was heard during some trailers which presumably were SDDS. And a very noticable dropout when the lights up cue went by at the end. Not sure what kind of nasty cuing they're doing that would go that far in so as to affect analog. Unless perhaps this house also had SR-D in the form of a basement reader and the front desk didn't know what they were talking about.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-14-2002, 09:50 PM:

So are you saying that the picture sucked, or the sound sucked?
Mark

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 12-14-2002, 11:55 PM:

The AMC I worked at had 8 screens, all with SDDS. Typical setup was SDDS processor with Ultra-Stereo analog and Component Engineering booth monitor.

One auditorium was set up for 8 channels. That one was also equipped with Dolby Digital and "double system" magnetic sound for test screenings. The analog processor was a Dolby CP-65. If I remember correctly, there were about 750 seats in that room.

Interesting point - due to all the summertime screenings, that "big house" would constantly get re-EQ'ed. Some were better than others.

As for Torus screens. I think we had 6 of them, the remaining two houses were tiny theatres.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-15-2002, 12:25 AM:

No, Mark, it was The Screen That Sucked as in the infamous Torus screen. Actually that's one of the reasons we go there. We know it sucks but we find it highly amusing. The biggest screens in the complex and they're still 1.85 max (vertical masking from the top down for Scope).

Manny, was that screen with interlock mag set up for two projector / changeover or did they keep a MUT around to handle the track?

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 12-15-2002, 10:16 AM:

In that house they had a 5-deck platter. The top two platters were reserved for mag tracks at test screenings.

The mag was threaded over to a separate interlocked player.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-15-2002, 01:22 PM:

Those "community" surround clusters are damned near as bad as the surrounds up in the ceiling nonsense. I watched "Desperado" at the Grand 24 in an auditorium using those things. Basically, the speaker systems would call your attention directly to the upper back corners of the ceiling.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-15-2002, 05:56 PM:

Well at least they are using top movable masking on the 1:85 screens. I was just kidding you when I said did the picture or sound suck. I've been to several of the AMC locations that have that sort of installation and know darn well that both the picture and sound suck.
Mark