Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: CFS Automation Problem

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Posted by Kyle Abel (Member # 819) on 12-11-2002, 01:46 PM:

I am having a problem with my CFS TAS-1 (I think...check image) Automation with Component Engineering FM-35 Failsafe. When I press start, the automation does not change sound formats or open the douser. When I try to manually change sound formats, I cannot do so (Ultra*Stereo JS-205), and I when I try to manually open the douser, the motor is keeping it shut (Kelmar ECS-35). When this happens, we have to completely turn off the system (CFS Lamphouse), turn it back on, and the system runs fine for a show. What is going on???

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-11-2002, 02:09 PM:

I don't know much about your automation, but is it possible the Xenon lamp ignition is driving your automation nuts?

I suggest you prevent the lamp from firing on startup and see if the automation works properly.

I have seen some CFS consoles....the RF suppression they had in the models I saw had little or no RF suppression.

Just a thought.

Posted by Kyle Abel (Member # 819) on 12-11-2002, 02:21 PM:

Supposing all of the ignitor controls are the same in all of the projectors (I believe they are), wouldn't the same thing be happening in all of the projectors? Can you fully start the automation process without the automation taking over the lamp controls?

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 12-11-2002, 03:29 PM:

Sounds like it may possibly be in Interlock mode? Start button starts motor, and lamp, and waits for que to open douser and change sound format (I believe the Inboard que provides this function). The Interlock module cards on these automations is known to go on the blink every once and a while.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-11-2002, 03:46 PM:

Jason's guess sound plausible. Check to make sure it isn't in "sync" mode. However since the douser is fighting him to be opened, that tells me electricity is being fed constantly to it and the problem is elsewhere in the automation. (Kyle, make sure to power that down a.s.a.p. when that happens so you don't damage the changeover solenoid.)

It's been forever since I worked on one of those, but aren't the cards swappable? If memory serves, there is one card that handles the start commands (it has a small pot to adjust the delay time until the douser opens). Swap that with another house and see if the problem follows.

Posted by Kyle Abel (Member # 819) on 12-11-2002, 04:32 PM:

Replaced automation timing board, removed the interlock control board, still nothing. Even when at rest, the douser motor keeps the douser shut. Any other suggestions?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-11-2002, 04:43 PM:

Check the start push button.
It provides a pulse to the dowser close relays when pressed so there is a high probablity that it is sticking in (or contact jamming) when you press it

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-11-2002, 05:24 PM:

Do you have one of those "Multi-Function Boards" installed in the back side of the console? Typically, these were retrofitted to the system when the platter failsafes were installed.

They are mostly a pain in the ass. The platter failsafes didn't really work well and people ended up manually diabling them by tying them down. (Among other things.)

Another things that causes problems is the "Lights-Up" retrofit. That's the white timer module that holds the lights up at full brightness for the advertisements to play. Again, they are a real pain in the ass. Fortunately, these are easier to troubleshoot than the "Multi-Function" boards. You can replace the white relay/timer thingy and you'll be okay. (Check to be sure nobody's fiddled with the settings on the thing before you go and toss out a perfectly good unit, though! -- Been there! Done that!)

For the "Multi-Function" boards, the troubleshooting may or not be simple. First try replacing the relays on the board. (Swapping them out with known-good ones?) IF that doesn't work, my advice is to tear the things out and throw them in the dumpster! REALLY!

I had a whole series of projectors that had these monstrosities retrofitted to them. One by one they started malfunctioning, much in the same way you describe. (Cycling the power solves the problem until the next show.) Once I removed those boards, almost all the problems we had been having vanished overnight.

If THESE things aren't the problem, might I suggest you try checking (changing-out) relays on the mother board? I can't think of which one(s) they are but I have had several problems with CFS that were due to bad/stuck relays. If this still doesn't work, then you may have a probem in the MB itself. (RARE)

In the few years I spent taking care of projectors, I have found CFS to be one of the most cantankerous automations. Either they work or they don't. Here's a whole cabinet full of relays, wires and switches that does the same things that other compaines do with a unit no bigger than a shoe box.

With CFS, you're usually in a love-hate relationship... You LOVE to HATE them! [Big Grin]

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 12-11-2002, 06:05 PM:

Sounds like there is a main relay sticking. Or one of the function boards on the mother board (There are two of them) is bad. With the inability to switch the functions on the format card of the ultra stereo unit it could be the function board (if memory serves) that is on the left slot. Try swapping this board with one from another machine. When you turn the power off it is resetting the relays.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-11-2002, 10:40 PM:

Kyle, you should be able to start the entire automation process without the lamp firing. Just shut off the power to the xenon rectifier.

You mentioned:

quote:
Even when at rest, the douser motor keeps the douser shut. Any other suggestions?

Are you saying that the CO douser is locked closed when you apply power to the entire system even before you punch the start button, or when there is no power to the entire system?

Kelmar coils that have burned out sometimes self-distruct bad enough where the coil form is melted into a hunk of plastic goo that jams the armature in such a manner where you can't open it without actually disconnecting the linkage. I had this happen to mine when I had a TA-10 malfunction some time ago.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 12-12-2002, 12:34 PM:

Still sounds like a relay that is keeping the pulse continuous. Try this. Disconect the Dowser from the terminal strip. If the dowser frees up and everything returns to normal i.e. the automation works everything except the dowser because it is disconected, then the problem could be the dowser itself. Normaly though when there is a coil burned out in the dowser when you hit the start button it will kill the automation by tripping the breaker. There are three larger contact relays on the motherboard of the automation. If I remeber correctly here one is for the dowser, one is for the exciter lamp and one is to pulse the start up lamp, motor, and automation it's self. Check these relays to make sure none of them are bad.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 12-12-2002, 12:44 PM:

Randy said:
Do you have one of those "Multi-Function Boards" installed in the back side of the console? Typically, these were retrofitted to the system when the platter failsafes were installed.

were you talking about the boards that were used to wire in the platter failsafes. Whenever the failsafe tripped you had to shut down the power and turn them back on. If so the remedy to that problem was to cut the black wire that ran underneath the circut board. Doing this made it where you did not have to use the relays on the board to reset the power. It reset when the failsafes returnes to normal position.

Posted by Kyle Abel (Member # 819) on 12-12-2002, 04:46 PM:

OK, I tried replacing the start button and disconnecting the douser, but still nothing. I did notice that the problem ONLY occurs after the film runs through and the cue at the end resets the system, OR after I hit the stop button. When we turn off the automation then turn it back on, everything's fine (sound formats switch, douser opens & closes).

Now what???

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-12-2002, 06:11 PM:

Then it has to be a stuck relay - but I doubt if it is a mechanical failure of the relay. Something in the relay logic is holding it closed. Apparently, as I understand what you are saying, the relay is releasing at power-down. Is that correct?

I can't find any books on that thing in the manuals archive, but I wonder if it is microprocessor controlled.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-12-2002, 08:32 PM:

I believe this automation has one of the dreaded UJTs that are notorious for locking up this style of automation (2N2426, I think). There are two typically on the timmer board. That is where I would start to look.

Steve

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-12-2002, 08:41 PM:

replace the UJT with a 2n2427 and the UJT failures usually go away.
Also check the small SCR on the board they can sometimes get to sensitive for there own good

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-12-2002, 10:03 PM:

Gordon beat me to it about the SCR. I was pondering that in my mind when I was thinking of some the old microprocessor based pinball machines, and I came back to suggest a SCR might be the culprit.

I am really surprised you didn't fry the douser coil yet.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 12-13-2002, 02:48 AM:

normaly when those transistors go out on the timer board everything keeps running when failsafe drops and if I remember right no functions will work. You said you swapped out the timer board with one that works and the problem still exists. Try swapping out both function boards with two from a working console. one thing that just came to mind. Check all of the terminal screws on the mother board and make sure that all screws are snug and no wires have come loose. I have seen problems occure because of this. Believe me I have been screwing with these consoles for the past ten years and I still learn something new so keep us posted on what you discover to fix your problems.

Posted by Kyle Abel (Member # 819) on 12-13-2002, 01:23 PM:

Yes, I did change out the timing board with no results. I'm going to swap out all of the relays and both function boards when I get in today. We'll see what happens. What should I look for if that doesn't work? A new mother board?

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-13-2002, 04:49 PM:

If you an find one. So far, it seems as though Gordon or Steve are the only ones that are really familiar with that unit.

I think Ken Layton might be, also. There are some of those automations in a theatre Ken works with on occasion.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 12-13-2002, 06:17 PM:

And I thought I had some real knowledge about these consoles having spent over ten years to this day having had to screw with them for one reason or another. [Smile]

Lets just hope it's not the motherboard....that's something if you can't find you may have to have it made for you. We are having problems with one of our dimmer control boards and I was told it may take months to get a new one because they have to make them for you now.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 12-13-2002, 07:20 PM:

quote:
Lets just hope it's not the motherboard....that's something if you can't find you may have to have it
made for you. We are having problems with one of our dimmer control boards and I was told it may take
months to get a new one because they have to make them for you now.

Just today I replaced a bad CFS automation motherboard in an LSX console. The boards (and many other CFS automation components) are still available from Lighting Images Technology: (909) 981-7190.

-Aaron

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-13-2002, 10:01 PM:

Oops! Sorry, Darryl. Didn't mean to imply that you didn't.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 12-13-2002, 10:06 PM:

No problem Paul, like I said earlier you always learn something new with these consoles. I am really curious now if Kyle fixed his problem and if not just what the problem may be.

Posted by Kyle Abel (Member # 819) on 12-15-2002, 02:59 PM:

As it turns out, it was BOTH multi-function boards, and they were both new boards (within the last year). So much for assuming anythig...

Thanks for all of the help!

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-15-2002, 04:57 PM:

Maybe you might consider changing out the device Gordon suggested. It may save you some grief in the future. [Smile]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-15-2002, 05:54 PM:

I had one of those UJTs go bad on me last week in a Strong SPA-5(Raven Automation actually).....power supply board died first due to a short in a brand new Automation PCB whos manufacturers name I shall leave off this thread. The PS was an easy fix. Not sure if the PS took the UJT or what but I had a similar problem to yours after I got the PS fixed. Replacing the bad UJT cured it.
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Michael Elam (Member # 788) on 12-18-2002, 11:14 AM:

The motherboards are still available, it may take six weeks to get it but they are available.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 12-18-2002, 04:59 PM:

quote:
The motherboards are still available, it may take six weeks to get it but they are available.

I got mine overnight via FedEx. If you need it bad enough you can get it quickly.

-Aaron