Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Static problems

This is topic Static problems in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004302

Posted by Alex Grasic (Member # 1371) on 12-12-2002, 12:40 AM:

I need as much input as possible on my little problem. I have a bad problem with static on my film which has caused quite a few brain wraps lately. Anyone have any good advice for getting rid of the static?? I picked up a humidifier for a small part of the booth to see if it makes any impact. I think it may be the way to go...that is...picking up a few of these for the booth...any other tips?

Posted by John Westlund (Member # 913) on 12-12-2002, 12:47 AM:

Try and keep the humidity around 50%. The best thing that you can do for static is to get a media cleaner and some film guard. But if you dont have a media cleaner and cant get one I would still get the film guard. You can spray it on a rag and wipe down the edge of the print. Then you can take up the film once with the soundtrack down and wipe that side of the print. This should eliminate the static and a lot of shedding.
John

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-12-2002, 01:01 AM:

Yes. FilmGuard. Nothing works better or faster against static. Click on the spectacularly designed "Filmguard" button on the left (underneath the incredibly designed "Forums" button). After you awe in the excellent crafstmanship required to make these buttons, you can read more about Filmguard and what it can do for you.

Posted by Mathew Molloy (Member # 666) on 12-12-2002, 02:05 AM:

When we first took over operations of the theatre I manage now, static was our #1 foe. We had wrap after wrap after wrap. I spent half my time in the booth sitting next to the platter making sure it wouldn't wrap (and we tried all kinds of things like humidifiers, fabric softeners, etc).

A couple months later when we remodeled and upgraded we bought a Kelmar cleaner and Filmguard. Not a single static-induced wrap nor even a hint of one in ten months.

If you can convince those who need convincing that for the quarter of the cost of a replacement print you'll do away with wraps and have the added benefit of clean prints and gates.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 12-12-2002, 05:11 AM:

Shouldn`t static be no problem with properly grounded platters?
In my experience, the sticking of prints which leads to brain wraps is often caused by prints that haven`t been properly processed in the lab, so that the top layer of the print peels off to reveal the colour layers below which make the print stick to itself. This problem often occured 2-3 days after the print had started in our theater.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-12-2002, 07:35 AM:

"Static Cling" was first widely reported in 1995, with prints of "The American President".

Pytlak "Film Notes"
Article to Help with Static Cling on "American President"

Since the introduction of the improved KODAK VISION Color Print films which have a conductive antistatic backing layer, incidents of "static cling" have been greatly reduced, if not completely eliminated.

Optimum humidity for projection rooms is between 50 and 60 percent relative humidity. Accurate, low cost digital humidity gauges are available, and should be used to monitor humidity:

Holmes Humidity Gauge

Radio Shack Gauge 1013

Radio Shack Gauge 1036

With winter heating sometimes reducing the relative humidity to "bone dry" levels below 30% RH, additional moisture sometimes needs to be added to minimize film curl and control static buildup. Most HVAC systems include humidification, but may need to be adjusted for the dry winter months. For localized humidification in the projection room, Kodak recommends evaporative humidifiers that add moisture by blowing the air through a wet media or filter material. Do NOT use humidifiers or vaporizers that actually spray water droplets or mist into the air, as any minerals in the water will dry and deposit themselves as a white salty powder (not good for electronics and optics), and the mist may actually condense on film or electronic components. Steam humidifiers/vaporizers are very expensive to operate, and have limited capacity. Simply leaving buckets of water around is ineffective. Here are some high capacity evaporative humidifiers:

Evaporative Humidifier

Bemis Humidifier

Bemis High Capacity Humidifier

Even though KODAK VISION Color Print film is conductive, any static buildup needs a path to ground to discharge. Platters and projection equipment should be properly grounded. Non-conductive painted or anodized platter surfaces tend to have more static issues than conductive metal ones. Non-conductive platters and plastic rollers can be treated with conductive antistatic products:

Static Guard

ESD Antistats

ACL Antistats

Here's some good technical information on static control:

Static Control Article

"Static Cling" is more likely in the last reel or two of long features, when the film is peeling off the inside of the roll at a very shallow angle, allowing even a tiny amount of static charge to cause the film to stick to itself. Correct platter timing and restraining the outside of the roll are important to reduce the risk of the outside laps shifting, causing "platter fling". Sometimes, changing the winding orientation of the film (soundtrack up vs. soundtrack down) will allow the natural curl of the film to resist the tendency to pull inward.

Treatment of the film itself with an antistatic is not usually necessary for Kodak film, but can be done in severe cases, when the other factors cannot be controlled. Many here on Film-Tech have reported success using FilmGuard.

I am interested in following-up on any chronic instances of "static cling". Let me know the feature title, and magenta edgeprint codes of any prints that are especially prone to "static cling" (e-mail is fine). Provide information on platter type, relative humidity measurement, etc. A small sample of the leader from the affected reels will allow measurement of the processed film conductivity.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 12-12-2002, 08:46 AM:

John, what can you tell us about the sticking problem I have described?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-12-2002, 09:12 AM:

Michael Schaffer wrote: "In my experience, the sticking of prints which leads to brain wraps is often caused by prints that haven`t been properly processed in the lab, so that the top layer of the print peels off to reveal the colour layers below which make the print stick to itself. This problem often occured 2-3 days after the print had started in our theater. "

If the film is physically sticking to itself (rather than just "static cling" attraction), it may be that the gelatin emulsion was too wet. Obviously, if the lab did not dry the film completely after processing, it could wind up sticky. Sometimes film gets damp during shipping. Or your projection room humidity may be too high. Optimum relative humidity is 50 to 60 percent RH. Anything above 70 percent RH risks having the gelatin emulsion get softer, and maybe even sticky. Make sure water has not leaked onto the film.

If you receive a new print that is sticking as badly as you describe, replacement reels should be requested.

Here's some articles I wrote a few years ago:

Platter Patter

Cinema Notes: All that Sticks is not Static

Posted by Tom Wurz (Member # 42) on 12-12-2002, 10:07 AM:

Here's one for you. Our Head Projectionist sprays our prints with
WD-40. [Smile]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-12-2002, 10:15 AM:

Tom Wurz wrote: "Here's one for you. Our Head Projectionist sprays our prints with WD-40."

[Eek!]

NO!!! "Film Done Wrong" in the First Degree!

The oils in WD-40 can leach the oil-soluble dyes from color films, especially if there is any abrasion of the protective gelatin layer over the dye-containing imaging layers. You may start to see tiny green or yellow spots in the image as the dyes are removed from the abraded areas. The oily print will also be more prone to pick up dirt, and may get physically sticky or wind unevenly.

If you wipe the oily WD-40 off the print emulsion with a white tissue, I bet you find a slight pink color --- that's the magenta dye being leached out of the print! [Eek!]

Do NOT treat a print with oil or WD-40!

Posted by Tom Wurz (Member # 42) on 12-12-2002, 11:24 AM:

He really does this......I hope everyone detected my sarcasm when I posted that.
Tom
P.S. Isn't WD-40 a 2 or 3 on the Hazardous Material Identification flammability scale?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-12-2002, 11:29 AM:

Tom --- hopefully you can influence your Head Projectionist to stop the bad practice of spraying WD-40 on film. Does he/she read Film-Tech?

BTW, here is the MSDS for WD-40:

http://www.wd40.com/Brands/pdfs/msds-wd40_aerosol.us.pdf

Posted by Tom Wurz (Member # 42) on 12-12-2002, 11:45 AM:

Not on a regular basis. I will show him your post.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-12-2002, 02:48 PM:

I am curious where he "learned" this WD-40 technique?

Posted by Daniel Boisson (Member # 1027) on 12-12-2002, 08:36 PM:

How about those rubber strips you put on stairs for traction? Thats what my old theatre uses in several of the houses.

Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 12-12-2002, 08:47 PM:

I too, know a guy that is a real pinch on one occasion, sprayed some WD-40 on a print to clean it and eliminate a terrible static problem. (This predated FilmGuard as I understand it) As my eyes popped out of my head at the telling of the story, he told me that he thinks that FilmGuard is partially a compound similar to WD-40 combined with something like carnauba wax.

Now, even after hearing his story, I wouldn't put WD-40 on a print ever, but I must admit that the smell of FilmGuard is very reminiscent of the odor of WD-40.

Posted by Brad Haven (Member # 954) on 12-12-2002, 10:09 PM:

I too have had WD-40 recommended to me as a film lubricant, by older projectionists, i haven't and wont use it!
I do find that film guard wont work on some problem prints though, i edge wax and find it works beautifully on 99% of films.

Posted by Ray Brown (Member # 1449) on 12-13-2002, 12:09 AM:

Has anybody tried using the optional anti-static rollers for the AW3? I'm curious if anybody has had any luck with this.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 12-13-2002, 12:37 AM:

I SWEAR I have seen an article in Boxoffice that instructed operators to use WD-40 applied by wiping the edges of a reel from a rag to help with unsteady print troubles. Maybe someone with a pile of old Boxoffice mags can find the article?

No, I never tried it. [Roll Eyes]

-Aaron

Posted by Alex Grasic (Member # 1371) on 12-13-2002, 03:39 AM:

Well I have a very good feeling that this static problem is almost certainly the result of low RH. One of the managers at my theatre actually suggested to one of the other projectionists to give the print a spray with WD40...I freaked!! I didn't know the actual impact of WD40 on the print but I did know that it probably wasn't too great for it either. I heard of some strips similar to the ones you'll find on steps to avoid slipping but even thinner than those which are supposedly attached to the platter which create enough friction to offset the static on the print?? I purchased one humidifier now and have it by one machine which is a big problem for static. It seems to have made quite a difference over the past couple of days...could this possibly be the best way to go?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-13-2002, 07:52 AM:

I have one customer that swears by the aluminum anti-static rollers. He is also a Film-Guard user too (every show). He likes the rollers for two reasons...they are conductive and they use a needle bearing type hub rather than the standard no-bearing hub.

Steve

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-13-2002, 08:01 AM:

Again, even though KODAK VISION Color Print films have a conductive anti-static base, the static charge needs a path to ground to fully discharge. Conductive rollers with conductive bearings with well-grounded equipment should definitely help. In addition to metal rollers, some plastic rollers are now available with conductive additives. Non-conductive rollers and platter surfaces can be treated with topical antistats like Static Guard.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-13-2002, 08:05 AM:

Alex Grasic wrote: "I purchased one humidifier now and have it by one machine which is a big problem for static. It seems to have made quite a difference over the past couple of days...could this possibly be the best way to go?"

Yes, high capacity evaporative humidifiers will help get the relative humidity closer to the recommended range of 50 to 60 percent RH, and should help considerably. Rochester shares similar weather with Toronto (we're just across Lake Ontario), and last week's really cold weather probably resulted in indoor humidity being very low, which would make static more of a problem. I know I was getting shocks after walking across a carpet. [Eek!]

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 12-13-2002, 08:24 AM:

Would you recommend to install a (I do not know the proper English term) link between projector and platter other than the steering cable to establish a common ground?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-13-2002, 08:32 AM:

I don't know the details of German electrical codes, but in general, the normal grounding mandated by most codes should suffice for providing the path to ground for static. If the code allows, wiring the frame of the equipment to a cold water pipe or system ground could also be done, but be careful not to form ground loops.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-13-2002, 09:54 AM:

I can't believe some of the weird substances that people think should be used on film. WD40? Xecote? Yuck!

On the recommendation of another projectionist, I actually did use a bit of vaseline at one point on a B&W ESTAR-base print that was shedding like crazy and it seemed to help. Hopefully it didn't cause permanent damage to the print.

Posted by Alex Grasic (Member # 1371) on 12-15-2002, 10:06 PM:

I'm thinking that the humidifier solution might be it. My booth is spread across 4 individual rooms. Two of the smaller rooms become a big problem during the winter just because of a lack of good ventilation for one thing. Now that I've seen the result of using the unit at one projector, I feel it might be the most cost effective solution (which is exactly what my bosses want to hear).

Posted by Mark DeLettera (Member # 125) on 12-16-2002, 02:39 PM:

Alex...
As John Pytlak asked before:
"...Let me know the feature title, and magenta edgeprint codes of any prints that are especially prone to "static cling"..."

Was this happening on different prints, on different projectors or was it basically 'one bad apple'?? [Confused]

Thanks!

Posted by Alex Grasic (Member # 1371) on 12-18-2002, 03:53 AM:

Well, it was happening on three different prints on two machines beside each other. Not much ventilation around those machines. I can be certain it wasn't the prints because they've moved since and haven't been a problem at all.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-18-2002, 08:54 AM:

Sounds like it was a localized problem with very low humidity during that cold spell last week in Toronto. Glad the humidifiers helped. If a particular print title is problematic, let us know the magenta edgeprint code for the affected reels, so we can track the conductivity of the film stock.

Posted by Mike Jones (Member # 522) on 12-19-2002, 07:21 PM:

until you get your humidifiers or fix your static problem. might i cautiously reccomend placing a "sticky-poo" (or whatever people call 'em) on the brain of the feeding platter. placed in the right position this can prevent the brain arm from jerking wildly. This obviously isn't a fix. but, if you're very careful about it, this can keep you from spending an evening putting together a thrown print.

i'm sure projectionist will chime in with every warning to not do this and blah blah, because blah and blah blah. but, you make the choice.

word to your dilly,

cheers, mike

[bs]

yesss