This is topic Gagging order... in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-13-2002, 03:57 PM:
 
Have any of your guys ever had a gagging order placed on you as a result of taking part in this forum.

If you take part in and reply to a post then you are fair game as far as I am concerned.... to go bleeting afterwards is quite simply pathetic! I am not advocating direct and personal attacks but freedom of speech and opinions, heated at times though it may be, are to be expected. We are after all adults.

I have always and will always stand by anything I say and the fact that I take part in a public forum is evidence of that. I have no need to hide and have more self respect for myself so have no need to.

I have of course advised the author of the letter exactly where to go! By the way I cannot mention any names because we are now cleary part of some secret operation.... anyone reading this post should of course eliminate themselves immediatley!!

I will continue to take part in whatever forum I choose especially as I access the internet with an account that I pay for with my own very hard earned cash!!

Its not as if I've ever given advise or done anything that's electrocuted anyone.... god forbid I should every be so stupid!

However, I cannot explain that comment for fear of..... I'm not too sure exactly. Thank god for employment law in this country its very 'constructive'.

We are no longer surfs who have to touch our forehead and bow in gratitude.... Freedom to have an opion or to ask for advice and the opinions of others is clearly something that's fine in principle but not in reality.

So how many of you are cowering in silence?
 

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Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 12-13-2002, 04:17 PM:
 
In my Usenet sigfile I used to mention my elected office in my union local. Then my business agent (a prior one, not the current one) returned from a national meeting. He told me that he received complaints from others at the meeting about a member of his local posting "trade secrets" on the Internet. So I dropped my sigfile.
 

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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-13-2002, 04:31 PM:
 
Sorry to hear that.... but what exactly were those trade secrets you were passing on... were you getting a good back hander for it? I think we all need to know how much money we could earn.

People who live in the dark ages, where you didn't know what was going on in a town 5 miles away, really have to get their act together.

You and I are many hundreds of miles apart sharing experiences within minutes.... where's the threat in that?

Knowledge and shared experience are power.... maybe that's the problem?

I hope you've not been totally silenced by your experience.

Of course not... you're on a public forum and have the self respect to share.... thanks.

God... here I am thanking someone for having an opinion.... what has the world come to.
Regards.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-13-2002, 06:16 PM:
 
Technicolor folks are lurking and (supposedly) have been ordered not to participate.

And I know that certain people from certain companies are lurking and "following up" on posts with sales calls, because I've received such.
 

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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-13-2002, 06:24 PM:
 
Did they offer you a freebe?

If not I hope you gave them the

Unsolicited call's deserve nothing less......
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-13-2002, 07:14 PM:
 
I never had a gag order placed on me in a public forum. I say what I feel. I have told some companies to from time to time, and one company was successful in blackballing me from employment. Another tried but was unsuccessful. As a matter of fact, that unsuccessful attempt actually helped me. Both incidents were due to personal grudges. I have to admit that up to 10 years ago, I was a very difficult person to get along with.

The two companies that blackballed me (or tried to) are now bankrupt.

I have received some communications from some companies that "were not very nice" in what they said. Again, the has been issued to those companies. I just schrugged them off as and let it go at that, because there was no personal attacks written.

I stand by what I say until proven wrong to the point where I have been convinced that I am wrong. When that happens, I do apologize and stand corrected.

Personal attacks and character assassination are just flat wrong in any public forum.
 

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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-13-2002, 07:23 PM:
 
Unfortunatly there is always politics involved.....

However if someone participates in a forum then they agree to be criticised.

No employer has the right to attempt to gag anyone... and as you have already stated I too am happy to admit when I am wrong or mistaken.

So I have issued the ... quite a nice feeling.

I'm too old to be intimidated and have too much personal respect for myself. And yes I agree it can work in my, our, favour. After all why get involved in an open forum if you don't want to be identified.
I'm no fool, but thats not to say I can't be foolish. But I'm not bought at any price... I value myself more than anyone can afford.

Thanks for your contribution Paul.
 

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Posted by Rachel Gilardi (Member # 1016) on 12-13-2002, 07:25 PM:
 
I was actually referred here by a past company that I was employed by. I have never received a gag order by any company that I have worked for past or present.

Ken wrote "I will continue to take part in whatever forum I choose especially as I access the internet with an account that I pay for with my own very hard earned cash!!"

That is one of the best statements I have heard on this subject in a long time, I just wish some companies would take that to mind. Free speech is a wonderful thing, it’s a shame when people try to take that from you. I don't think I have noticed anyone share any secret trade information that most experienced theatre folks don't already know!
 

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Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 12-13-2002, 07:31 PM:
 
Didn't MegaStar Cinemas force a Film-Techer named J.C. Cowles to remove all of his posts and never participate here identifying themself as a MegaStar employee or face termination???

MegaStar

-Aaron
 

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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-13-2002, 07:35 PM:
 
Well hypocrasy is very rife when there is a percived gain to be had.

I'll apologise for the spelling in advance... my mates Mr G & Mr T are here

Its an unfortunate fact that compaines often try and gag people not because they are wrong but because they are covering thier own back.... this was made clear in the final sentence of the letter to me... "I am not in this letter addressing the validity or otherwise of your comments"... TALK ABOUT STANDING ON THE SIDE LINES!

The individual, who I won't name, cannot even say I was wrong. He... is that too much information, hides behind comfortable statements that allow easy alignment to one side or the other. With hypocrits that's normally the winning side!

I do appreciate any participation in this thread.
 

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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-13-2002, 07:42 PM:
 
Hi Aaron...

well I hope he told them to go them selves....

I do appreciate that its easy for someone on the outside to give advice, its easy as you don't have to live with the results!!

There is always an element of the company do pay your wages.... but unconditional complience is not acceptable in any circumstance.

What happened to the guy.....

I of couse don't align myself to any comments in case my employers or their contractors take offence. now how did all of that happen?
 

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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-13-2002, 07:52 PM:
 
While I think of it is there any chance of having an instant gremlin that does not show the recipient smilng....
 

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Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 12-13-2002, 07:58 PM:
 
I think the most "secret" suggestion I made on rec.arts.movies.tech was to place a scrap film band around a large print on a platter.
 

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Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 12-13-2002, 08:02 PM:
 

quote:

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What happened to the guy.....

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He seemed to completely comply with his empoyers demands, and then never posted again. I was astounded to know that his emplyer was so set against him trying to do a good job by learning things from the people that participate in this forum.
 

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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-13-2002, 08:12 PM:
 
Its a radical concept... but you can pick up nasty things from other people..... Inspiration being the most disgusting of them all.

So the easy way around it is to isolate them. Not everyone has the strength of personality to give the and walk away feeling they have done the right thing. We all have very different circumstances and demands on our resources.

Me, I'm on my own.... is it any wonder, so I only have to answere to myself. If I can't be honest about what I think or believe then I may as well as not be here at all.

An employer is entitled to 'Buy' a good days work for a fair days pay..... I have no problems with that at all! The work I perform on an average day would surprise many of you and I offer it happily and willingly. However, my mind is my own and is not on offer at any price.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-13-2002, 08:51 PM:
 
Ken, we could always initiate the old idea of creating a private forum right here alongside the already established public ones. A forum of which can only be accessed by active members. That would drive these people mad.

I do wish companies like TES would put a designated rep on the forums to answer questions and assist the people in the field. Clearly the suits are concerned that somehow their company will look bad, but what they don't seem to understand is that such a company looks TERRIBLE right now. Whether they feel this way or not, the distinct impression is that they do not care in the least bit. A little representation for Q&A and one on one assistance would go a long way.

Perhaps this year we could have the "4th Annual ShoWest Film-Tech Drink salute to MegaStar Cinemas".
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-13-2002, 09:00 PM:
 
At the intersociety meeting in LasVegas the people from MegaStar were present and left in a hurry when it was brought up about the good online resource of FIlmTech
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 12-13-2002, 09:05 PM:
 
Post deleted by author because it brought up a personal issue relating to someone else that's really none of my business to be talking about (unless the other party mentions it first).
 

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Posted by Jim Alexander (Member # 226) on 12-13-2002, 09:44 PM:
 
Quote:
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I think the most "secret" suggestion I made on rec.arts.movies.tech was to place a scrap film band around a large print on a platter.
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So you are the one who gave us this national secret! Excellent, but I would hardly call it a "trade secret". Ideas like these are what helps build quality projectionists. I could see it if the "trade secret" involved financial information or possibly public campaign plans, but booth tricks

Thank god I'm an independant operator and I don't have to answer to anyone...other than the wife
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-13-2002, 09:50 PM:
 
Ken said:

quote:

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So I have issued the ... quite a nice feeling.

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Ken, the times I did it, it was a very nice feeling, indeed! It was like unleashing pent-up feelings that were as powerful as an atomb bomb! As I look back, I am still glad I did it.

One of these people was so desperate that he tried to get me fired at the radio station, or he would close his advertizing account. The GM told me later this attempt was made, and the GM told that person to take his account elsewhere.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-14-2002, 02:25 AM:
 
Careful Jeffry, if word of that highly guarded trade secret gets out, people will surely loose jobs and others will be forced to take cuts in pay! It's secrets like the one you mention which keep the projectionist trade the strongest trade in the world!

I know some companies won't have a representative sign up for the forums because they don't want certain information leaked or fear that other members may attack them based on past posts/reputation on the company's products. I do think that attacking a company out of spite is wrong. If you must badmouth someone, I think it's best to have a good reason and explain it well and as "calmly" as possible.

I also don't think it's a good idea to go around saying stuff like "I work for Craplex Theaters and they told us today in a company memo that each theater will have at least one screen upgraded to center-surround sound!" Stuff like that is private to the company. This is a forum to talk about the job and its situations. There certainly is nothing wrong with that.

Unless you feel you have something to hide.
 

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Posted by Kevin Baglow (Member # 721) on 12-14-2002, 07:30 AM:
 
I'm not sure what u are all on about, but will put in my 10cents worth: Once some one said "Money talks-Bullshit walks"
Apologys in advance
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 12-15-2002, 12:08 AM:
 
Post deleted by Manny Knowles because it contained misinformation.

Apologies to all, especially to Ken L. and Brad.
 

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Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 12-15-2002, 01:33 AM:
 
What thread did this happen in?
I must have missed that thread all together.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 12-15-2002, 10:20 AM:
 
Post deleted by Manny Knowles because it contained misinformation.

Apologies to all, especially to Ken L. and Brad.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-15-2002, 11:00 AM:
 
One thing worth pointing out straight away is that writing anything on a public forum such as this is tantamount to publishing it. Absolutely anyone who has access to an Internet-connected computer can read it. That means that you are potentially regulated by all the legal issues surrounding the publication of anything in any form. They lays down the same ground rules as also apply in a verbal conversation, a letter or a published book or article. In practice (for me at least), this means not mentioning another individual or organisation by name unless (i) you are stating plain simple facts that you can corroborate, or (ii) you are saying something nice about them.

Ken raised this issue in another thread, by pointing out that I had misremembered a technical detail about FP-20s and that this could potentially have lead to a misleading advice scenario. This brings up an important principle. In another life, so to speak, I moderate a listserve (not film related at all), and recently have had to reject quite a few posts because the way in which they criticise certain published research falls foul of the rules imposed by the university which hosts the list. Personally I think these rules are a bit paranoid, but the issue which precipitated them remains. The bottom line is - don't write anything about anyone here that you wouldn't be willing to say to his or her face.

We can debate the rules imposed by our employers until the cows come home. What these are will depend on what provisions are in someone's contract of employment and whether those rules are legal or not. But at the end of the day, it's us wot said it and us wot will have to live with it. Say it on a forum such as this one and you've told the world.

quote:

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Ken, we could always initiate the old idea of creating a private forum right here alongside the already established public ones. A forum of which can only be accessed by active members. That would drive these people mad.

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quote:

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The two companies that blackballed me (or tried to) are now bankrupt.

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I have a similar story. About a year ago I took a train from York to Glasgow, and found my reserved seat occupied by another passenger. They had forgotten to stick the piece of paper on the top of the seat which indicates that it is reserved. The train was completely full, so it wasn't as if I could just sit down somewhere else. I found the guard and explained the situation to him (OK, I was angling for an upgrade): his response was that that 'there are no reservations on this train', and that I would just have to stand up and put up with it. I responded that I wasn't happy (I'd queued up for ages - and paid - to reserve the seat, several weeks before the journey), and asked him how I should go about getting a refund. His response was that I should stop complaining or else I'd find myself complaining to a policeman when he had be taken off the train at the next station for disorderly conduct! Needless to say I wrote a flaming letter to the train company. Their reply came a fortnight later: 'We are sorry, blah blah blah. Ordinarily we would have taken up the matter with the train manager involved, however I regret to say that he died suddenly on Friday.' I'll certainly think twice before writing a similar letter in future!
 

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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-15-2002, 05:58 PM:
 
Hi Leo....

if you know anything of me at all I will always stand up for anything I say. I'm not a hypocrite what I say is what I mean.

On the front page of this forum is a condition of entry and participation.... once you enter the forum you have agreed to these conditions. Not sure how many of you will have read the conditions fully, its a fact of life we just love to click OK!!

If you participate then you can expect someone to reply.... and it may not always be what you want to hear. I'm fine with that I am an adult not a child who says 'yes' to get his way and then cry's about it all afterwards.

Being honest does not mean being nice all the time.... I can and will stand by anything I say. In a free world we are entitled to have an opinion, that's why I participate in an open forum..... if you can't stand the heat then get away from the fire.

Regards
 

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 12-16-2002, 12:50 PM:
 
Woa! Hold on a second. My "Questions about Unions" thread came long before, and had nothing to do with, my employement at CinemaWorld. I was new to the forums and that time, and knew very little of projection unions. I was simply curious as to how they opperate, and I think perhaps some people didn't like my choice of words in a few posts. But that thread had nothing to do with my employement.

So where would you possibly have heard that was why I was fired from CinemaWorld?
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-16-2002, 03:26 PM:
 
Hi Ken:

I agree, being honest doesn't mean being nice all the time, but IMHO it should mean being constructive. By that I mean that if you decide to criticise a person, organisation or a product then (i) that criticism should be based on accurate information, and (ii) it should be done to achieve a positive outcome. For example, 'so-and-so made this mistake because of these factors, so here is how to avoid making that mistake in future.' By keeping personalities out of it you keep criticism to the point, and also make things not quite as hard for the person you're criticising. I wouldn't descibe myself as a peace, love and lentils-type person (well, I am a Daily Telegraph reader ), but I can't see any point in causing an upset if you don't need to. Life is too short...

I totally agree with standing up for anything you say and with the consequent notion of freedom of speech. I was simply trying to make the point that freedom of speech is a responsibility as well as a right. I know I tend to forget that anything I write here (and on any listserve that is archived and web-searchable) is effectively published for all the world to see. It's easy to do that, because I'd guess that on this site, 20-30 people account for 99% of the posts. So I tend to forget that tens of millions of people can read it, and potentially, take offence. Whether they're justified in taking offence or not is a totally different question, and I for one would have to feel very deeply about an issue to want to want to get involved in a massive debate over it...
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-16-2002, 03:30 PM:
 
My personal "code of conduct":

Speak the truth.

Back up what you say with data or links.

Admit mistakes if proven wrong.

Label personal opinion as such.
 

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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-16-2002, 03:51 PM:
 
Hi again Leo...

well I don't think about how many may or may not read any of my posts.... for the simple reason that anything I post is true and justified. Lie's take a lot of maintenance to keep them going, the truth is easy.

I participate in non secret forums for that very reason... I've nothing to hide. I have a lot os self respect and I will not compromise that for anyone.

I will simply add that anyone who participates in a thread does so of their own free will.... and has to expect to be responded to.

Seems simple enough to me... or am I maybe missing something?

Regards.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-16-2002, 04:53 PM:
 
John: agreed entirely. Two responses. Backing up with links: anyone can stick any web page online, so I'd personally say something like 'Back it up with a link which you have looked at and believe to be a reliable source of evidence.' A web page is not like a published book or an article in a refereed journal, becuase no regulatory process has to take place before it goes online. I would also extend 'Admit mistakes if proven wrong' to 'admit the possibility of having made a mistake if it is reasonably sugggested that you could be wrong.' I'd much rather prolong the research process a little and be sure of getting it right than refuse to consider the possibility of a mistake if I didn't believe that the contradictory evidence presented to me was cast-iron truth.

Ken: I am not and never have been suggesting that anyone be prevented, or even discouraged, from publishing something that is true and justified. I'm just saying that in some circumstances, that cause upset, rightly or wrongly, and that I personally try to stop and think about whether exercising the right of free speech is worth running the risk of upsetting people. Sometimes it is, certainly, but I know that in other circumstances, I've said/written/posted things that I've ended up wishing I hadn't.

BTW, as for corkscrews, my personal experience is that they do a pretty good job if you're trying to have a beverage or two! I've heard that human teeth can work just as well, but cannot comment on the accuracy or otherwise of this from personal experience!
 

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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-16-2002, 05:55 PM:
 
Well I hardly call opening a nice bottle of wine a job.... more a pleasure so it could also read...

A corkscrew is the right tool for the pleasure.... of opening a bottle of wine... again and again and again

As for regrets... if we always procrastenated over everything we said we'd never say anything and have nothing to regret ever! Not too sure I could live with that myself.

What makes me .. me! is my opinions and personality and the same applies to you. Diversity of opinion is a very real treasure worth protecting and standing up for.

Some people seem to think having an opinion is a one way street.... boy have they got it wrong!

Regards.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-16-2002, 10:15 PM:
 
Ken as a hobbiest wine maker the type of corkscrew used makes a difference
 

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Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 12-16-2002, 10:36 PM:
 
And Gord always has some mighty fine wine.
 

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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-17-2002, 03:07 PM:
 
Gordon...

there's always one!!

Me I'm just happy if I can get it into a glass..... and sometimes just out of the bottle. Call me a lush if you like..... hic!
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-17-2002, 03:44 PM:
 
I did try home winemaking once as a student (using the kits from Boots) but never really got the hang of it... yup, I'm willing to submit to the evils of global capitalism and get mine from Tescos.

They do say, however, that global warming will soon make England a prime winemaking region. Right, I'm off to needlessly drive my car up and down the A19 a few times to hasten that day!
 

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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-17-2002, 04:17 PM:
 
Tesco.... I just love Buy One Get One Free!!!!....

or bog-off as they call it!

Are they taking the piss I ask myself? or is that what they are selling us?

Now don't go driving when you've had a glass will you... I mean I could earn myself £500 by shopping you. Don't you love the spirit of Christmas.

Better still I could create a whole business.... take people out for a drink, then pack them off home in the car and then report them and get £500.

What a sorry world we live in.....

For those that don't know this is a new initiative encouraging people to report drink drivers for a £500 reward. Crime may not pay but shopping people does.

Why would you need to get 'paid' to keep death off the road?

In case anyone is wondering what this has to do with a gagging order... it sort of fits in in an obtuse sort of way.

Regards.
 

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