Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Color shifts in LOTR (Two Towers)

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 12-19-2002, 05:45 PM:

What causes a picture to suddenly lose color? I've got a couple of reels where the picture goes really blue for a second or two, then either goes fine or shifts to another color. In one case, it's about the last 30 seconds before the end of the reel. Does this have something to do with a whacky printer... or something else?.. hopefully not my eyes!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-19-2002, 05:51 PM:

Probably one of the 3 printer lights failing or miss reading the punch tape for the timing cues (newer printer use a PC)

Posted by Chris Tyson (Member # 992) on 12-19-2002, 06:08 PM:

We have 2 prints and both have like a ripple effect of the color going in a downward motion in several different parts of the movie. I thought it was the lamp flickering for a second, but I have never saw a lamp do that (ripple effect) before. So I checked the other print and it does it also. Anyone else have this or do I need to get me some new reels in here?

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-19-2002, 06:20 PM:

If it happens adjacent a lab splice, it can be "fogging" from the safelight.

--jhawk

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 12-19-2002, 06:31 PM:

Chris, Could what you're seeing be Wavy Line Syndrome?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-19-2002, 06:37 PM:

Lightstruck.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 12-19-2002, 07:44 PM:

What we have is not the wavy line syndrome... though I always wondered what that was, too. Thanks for the link.

this is a definite (jolting) loss of 1 or 2 colors for a moment, so I'm thinking the exposure light explanation comes closest. It isn't patterned like non-uniform chemistry or such... it affects the entire image suddenly.

Posted by Chris Tyson (Member # 992) on 12-19-2002, 07:44 PM:

Yes, I believe that's what it could be. Thanks, Chris.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-19-2002, 09:32 PM:

Sounds like safelight fogging, which on print film, is usually an overall cyan or blue coloration over the width of the film (not just the picture area). Here's what Kodak wrote to help labs avoid these problems:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/illumination/page01.blind

Posted by Mark DeLettera (Member # 125) on 12-23-2002, 07:52 AM:

As I did plenty of Safelight testing on various print films here at Kodak, it sounds to me like the symptoms of safelight fogging.
Without seeing the film, I guess that the printer lights failing, as Gordy mentioned, is indeed a possibility.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 12-23-2002, 12:07 PM:

I saw that too once or twice in "The Two Towers", both times after a lab splice.

Posted by Scott Balko (Member # 438) on 12-23-2002, 08:55 PM:

I had this on "Stuart Little 2". Both on or near a lab splice. The picture would go blue then the lab splice would come, then it would go blue-ish again. I have the wavy line syndrome on Star Trek: Nemesis.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 12-23-2002, 09:42 PM:

We had to replace reels 6 & 8. Reel 9 had some of that wavy line syndrome in it, but it got in just under the radar here & I didn't really notice it much until I sat in the auditorium last night. It's not too bad, but noticeable to anyone who knows what they're looking for.

Reel 8 had a bad section, roughly 15 feet long. It started with the colors, including sound track, dissolving to a very pale blue. At one point, the picture looks like it hits a pre-printing lab splice, and the image gets even more pale. Then, it suddenly goes completely white... with what looks like an attempt in the middle to return, but only for half a frame. Then the whole process reverses, including lab splice (not on the print) to roughly 50% image... then everything fades back in, including full density in the sound track. Wierd... first time I've seen that... much less in the middle of a reel.

Reel 8 just had that flashy-color shifting we've been chatting about already.

The new reels arrived from Deluxe, Hollywood.

[Confused]

Coincidentally, that's where the replacement reel I had to order on Star Trek came from... [Confused]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-24-2002, 07:08 AM:

What is the magenta edge print identification of the film batch? It may be that the film is more prone to safelight fogging if a higher than normal percentage of reels is affected with blue/cyan safelight fog.

Posted by Joseph Pandolfi (Member # 223) on 01-01-2003, 11:52 AM:

Saw it last night at a diferent theatre than mine. The beginning of Reel 6 starts out with the frame line just below the top part of the screen. Fifteen seconds later when I was about to go out and complain to the usher, the screen flickered for a second or two and the visable frameline disappered back to normal. There was no noticeable lab splice that I have seen.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 01-01-2003, 06:38 PM:

quote:
from John...
What is the magenta edge print identification of the film batch?

I'll have to get a magnifying glass to read that! Will try to get one tomorrow.
It's not your film, though... it's Fuji.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-02-2003, 07:52 AM:

Jack wrote: "It's not your film, though... it's Fuji."

Yes, most of the prints are on Fuji print film.

But the film was shot using Kodak camera negative films. [Cool]

:

http://www.theasc.com/magazine/dec02/two/index.html

___________________________________________________________

TECHNICAL SPECS
Super 35mm 2.35:1
Arriflex, Moviecam and Mitchell cameras
Zeiss and Angenieux lenses
Kodak EXR 50D 5245, Vision 200T 5293, Vision 500T 5279, SO 214
Digital Intermediate
Scanning/Recording by Weta Digital
Digital Film Grading by The PostHouse AG
Printed on Fuji 3513D

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-02-2003, 12:23 PM:

quote:
Probably one of the 3 printer lights failing or miss reading the punch tape for the timing cues

I would think high-volumes of release prints would be made with a timed dupe negative at one-light setting, so there would be no changes to read.

quote:
Sounds like safelight fogging

Maybe they should be called cautious lights, then?
[Razz]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-02-2003, 01:00 PM:

Yes, release prints are usually made from a duplicate negative that requires no (or almost no) scene-to-scene printer light changes.

Usually, the original negative is timed on an electronic color analyzer, then an "answer print" is made for final approval of the scene-to-scene color timing. That color timing is used to make the timed master positive, from which the duplicate negatives used for release printing are made.

Here's some information about how it's done:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h61/

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/printing.shtml

http://www.acvl.org/manual.htm

Kodak avoids the use of the term "safelights", since ANY visible light will eventually fog unprocessed film over a period of time. "Darkroom Lighting" or "Process Lighting" are the preferred term:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/illumination/page01.blind

If print film is fogged by excessive exposure to an amber or sodium-vapor "safelight", the fog is usually blue or cyan in color.

If the film was accidently exposed to "white light" (tungsten, fluorescent, daylight), the fogging affects the yellow layer first, and will be yellow or brown in color.

A green light will produce magenta fogging.

A red light will produce cyan fogging.