Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Reference frame for MBFGW

This is topic Reference frame for MBFGW in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 12-21-2002, 02:01 PM:

Due to an unfortunate brain wrap I will have to order a new reel for this print. I inspected the head/tails for reference to be sure of the reel but my opeartors (or the previous theatre) cut the reference frames for reel one out totally. [Frown]

Can any of you describe or show me the exact ref. frame for the tail of reel one?

R2 head shows the three lady's legs as they walk down the street.

Thanks!

Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 12-21-2002, 02:23 PM:

Id have to look at my print when I get to work, but if you call Technicolor, that can fax you over a sheet with all the reference frame on them.
They will be dark and hard to see, but if you try really hard and squint your eyes a lot, you might be able to somewhat tell what frame is supposed to look like.

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 12-21-2002, 02:37 PM:

James,
I'll do that. I never realized you could call them for reference frames...

edit TES will also email you the reference frames for the films. Cool idea if you ask me.. It helped me out anyway... My R1 is missing footage at the tail. Replacement ordered.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 12-21-2002, 03:20 PM:

I think it is two women looking towards the soundtrack.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-21-2002, 04:29 PM:

Jeffry is correct, and I know just because I have seen that reel change so many times. ID frames are completely unnecessary, unless your print has many other splices in it from bad handling.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-21-2002, 04:32 PM:

TES can also get you footage counts (often in the same fax as the "checkframes" (as they call them)); useful if you have good reason to suspect a real is short by a significant amount.

--jhawk

Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 12-21-2002, 11:34 PM:

"I think it is two women looking towards the soundtrack"

That must be one mighty impressive soundtrack!! [Razz]

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 12-21-2002, 11:42 PM:

Well ya, it IS an impressive sound-track. They are looking nostalgic at it as they know it is about to be a thing of the past. (Cyan is coming.)

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 12-22-2002, 12:30 AM:

This is the imagery that TES sent me... (Hope it isn't to big)
Wait.. the upload feature is no longer available? I just noticed that.... Anyone?

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 12-22-2002, 01:14 AM:

Upload is still available... if you're not running at DLP resolution you might have to scroll down the menu buttons in the top left frame.

IIRC some of the studios had a beef with posting scanned frames on the site. Don't know about a copy of a fax though.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-22-2002, 09:23 AM:

Actually they are wondering why there is no SRD track to back up the analog in case it fails.......Just grab the windex and everything will be ok!
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-22-2002, 06:55 PM:

Actually, if you call up TES and ask them they will send you an e-mail which has a link to a file on their site. This file is a PDF version of the FAX they send you.

It's been a while since I have had to do this but, if memory serves, the PDF versions are in color. [Cool]

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 12-23-2002, 11:21 AM:

I've always agreed with the idea of leaving just ONE reference frame on the head and tail. Hmmm.... maybe this TES sheet could eliminate that less-than-perfect practice. What about non-TES prints? Anything like that available for them?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-23-2002, 11:53 AM:

Since someone at TES is obviously going to the trouble to make up these reference-frame sheets, why don't they ship them out with every print? For a 3000-print release, the cost would be about $30 (at most), which would be more than worthwhile if it prevents even five refunds from being given due to a print being shown in the wrong order.

Putting them on a web site would help, too, but most of us don't have network connectivity in the booth.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-23-2002, 03:46 PM:

It would mean they'd have to visit every print whenever it comes back. I mean, stuffing such a sheet in each can with the initial trailer pack & letter is presumably pointless, since a) those prints are presumably uncut anyway so who needs to know what the checkframes are b) it's pretty rare for anything other than the print to stay in the can past the first theatre that handles it.

So it translates into a labor cost. Presumably doing it on-demand is cheaper. Personally, I wonder what the demand is really like. I suspect it's pretty small.

--jhawk

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-23-2002, 04:02 PM:

Hmmmm....first thing that come to mind is the question -- where is TES getting these ID frames from that they send out at the asking?!

I still say there should be an easy way to copy three or four duplicate frames of the ID frame and splice that strip into the interneg, perhaps between # 4 & #3 countdown frames on the head and after the FINISH frame on the tail so there will always be a the way of identifying the leader to the body of the roll. It will also eliminate the questionable practice of leaving ID frames on the leaders entirely, which will make Joe happy.

I know John P. said this idea was once batted around but was thought to be too difficult for the labs. But I still don't see how doing it at the interneg stage would be that much of an extra burden give that they already supply ID strips with the title of the film on each of the leaders. It would just be part of that "leader prep" process where they have to create the heads and tails that are specific to each reel in the first place.

Frank

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-23-2002, 05:26 PM:

jhawk -- don't they open the cans anyway to put the "integrity inspected" stickers on them?

I agree that demand for these sheets is low (in part because I doubt that there are many non-FT people who know enough to ask for them), but the cost is also low compared with the potential for lost shows, so it should be in the best interest of the distributor to ask for TES (and ETS and other depots) to include them with the prints.

Having said that, the real problem is with oddball titles from weird distributors. Most TES prints are released widely enough that one can call another nearby theatre and ask questions about their print if there are any problems. That isn't the case with foreign and repertory titles where there might be only one or two prints in circulation, each of which has probably been to dozens of theatres.

My last print horror story was with something called "Oil Children" (aka "Children of Petroleum") at a festival. What had originally been a five-reel print arrived in four beat-up round lab cans without cores. Reels were unlabelled and most were missing head and/or tail leaders and cue marks; many had very bad splices that had to be remade. It took several hours to get it separated into 2000' chunks and in what appeared to be the right order, with leaders and cue marks added. I think I got it right, but don't really know. Of course, it left the theatre properly labelled with leaders and on cores (and with an extra lab can borrowed from "Fleshdance."). Grr.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-23-2002, 06:51 PM:

Frank, it's clearly harder because they need to get that frame onto the leader. That means they either need to do some telecine work, or they need to duplicate via an analog process. Either way, it's work.

Scott, no, only about 1/2 the TES prints we see are "integrity inspected." Incidently, that's why the labels are over the string catches, you know -- so that once a reel band comes OFF an "integrity inspected" print, that print is no longer "integrity inspected."

festivals...well, if you're lucky you'll have someone involved with the film on-hand to give you some advice.

--jhawk

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-24-2002, 07:25 AM:

You're right, John, the key phrase in running film festivals is "If you are LUCKY." I don't think I have ever seen reel bands on foreign films, or if I have, they have been so few and far between that I can't remember them. But foreign films are a different animal altogether -- there is no telling how they will arrive and they certainly don't follow any of the US standard procedures for shipping. Reels are almost never used and battered up Kodak raw stock cans are the norm with lids and bottoms so badly banged up that they have to be taped to stay together. If you don't add some kind of protection (I use handtowel paper that I twist into a rope and wrap it around the film roll) the roll will slide around in the can, smashing against the bent rim which many times has sharp protrusions. Film rolls without cores happen quite a lot. The way I handle this is, I have to wrap the split reel center with enough handtowel paper so that it will fit inside the center of the film roll; you need to keep adding paper until you have a nice tight center that will hold the roll enough so that you can do the wind onto a reel. It's a tricky maneuver and one royal pain.

Scott's horror show is not at all uncommon, and if you are the first to get a print from, say, China or Korea, before a kind, bilingual native projectionist has added numbers to the leaders (assuming there are leaders), then you are stuck trying to figure out the Chinese or Korean figures. You can easily wind up showing the film with reels out of order. On one occasion, it took me two screenings to figure out the correct sequence of a film from Uganda; I had to watch the film and follow the storyline -- not an easy task because that requires that you have the time to pay enough attention to read the subtitles. Funny thing was, no one in the audience complained about the reverse order shows. I guess they chalked it up to "avant garde." And that was unusual in that usually you only get one shot at getting it right....usually there isn't any second or third screenings.

Save me from festivals.

Frank