This is topic Noisy Wenzel (Simplex) intermittent ... rebuild? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by John Schulien (Member # 215) on 12-26-2002, 12:39 AM:
My Wenzel Pro 50 rebuild is coming along nicely. It's now too cold for airbrush painting in the garage, and the chassis parts are only half repainted, so I brought everything in and reassembled the projector head.
The projector head has an irregular rattling noise. I've disconnected the various mechanical sections, and unfortunately, the noise goes away when I disconnect the intermittent, so that appears to be where the problem is. With the intermittent disconnected, it runs smooth as silk. The intermittent is the only component that I haven't rebuilt.
So now I'm considering disassembling the intermittent to see if I can find the problem. I've dismantled and reassembled every other part of the projector so far, but I seem to recall reading that rebuilding the intermittent poses special problems.
Any advice on this? Do I need special tools or alignment jigs? Can I do this, or am I going to get in trouble? I'm pretty mechanically adept, but I seem to recall reading somewhere here that there are some gotchas.
It's a double-bearing intermittent with a LeVezzi nameplate on it. I believe that this is a Simplex style intermittent.
Unfortunately, sending it out to a pro is not an option within my budget on this project.
Thanks, John
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-26-2002, 01:02 AM:
IMHO, unless you've had hands-on experience rebuilding or repairing intermittents with a mentor, this is a job best left for an expert. If you can afford to lose the movement if you make an error, by all means, gather as much info as you can and dive-in.
I'm not insinuating that you are not capable of doing it, but there is a finesse to intermittent work; much of it is done more by feel than by checklist. It is definitely an acquired skill.
For a Super movement, if memory serves, you at least need a couple of special reamers, a taper pin punch and v-blocks.
Are you sure there's nothing in the gear train that's causing the noise, when it's placed under load by the intermittent? Might have a worn sleeve bearing that a shaft is wobbling in.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-26-2002, 05:41 AM:
John, I agree with Tim on this problem.....examine every shaft's bore to be sure its not excessively worn. Some actually go oval shaped and this wear then allows the gears to mesh, sometimes bang together, too tightly....only when under the intermittents load though. Manufacturers used to make oversized shafts for several of the high wear shafts in these mechanisms. LaVezzi actually made a neato conversion kit that replaced the worn shafts with gears that rotated on fixed hardened and ground studs.
As far as rebuilding a movement goes....if you are wanting to restore projectors you have to learn that part as well. It does require alot of finesse to get good at it, and remember that there are NO replacement parts available anymore....off the shelf. I suggest aquireing a couple of old practice movements and that you feel comfortable working on those first. Then tackle the movement that you want to "restore".
About the only "off the shelf" part you can replace inside any of these movements anymore is the cam pin....P360BB. This is the same cam pin used in the X-L, Century C, and Christie Ultramittent. It usually mics out at .9995 give or take a little in diameter. This slight undersize pin that normally goes into a .1000' slot in the star is this way for oil clearance. Yes, they are built to tighter tolerances than a Swiss Watch! Aside from that you will need to make a small V block to support the sprocket to tap out the taper pins that go through the sprocket shaft. Also you'll need a small arbor press, and fittings to press the sprocket off the shaft (without bending anything!) as I've never seen any of these just slip off.... the taper pin holes are reamed in place. There is also the critical gear mesh adjustment for the steel reversing gears inside the movement. These are but a few of the odd things you will encounter when you take it apart. Its all in some of the old Richardson books you'll find on projectors every now and then at your local antique and rare book store.
Mark @ CLACO
Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 12-26-2002, 11:42 AM:
Actually, I have all the new parts necessary for rebuild, either seperately or as a kit. I have several RK-103 La Vezzi kits, this is the correct one for the Standard , Super, and early Christie movements! It is not that hard to do! Email me, I would be glad to help!! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-26-2002, 12:16 PM:
I would not sujest working on the movement unless you are experienced for not only can the movement be damaged but the movement could seize and damage part of the machine's gear train
My opinion is it probably a problem with either the amount of play in the cam shaft with the flywheel mounting adjustment or chatter in the drive to it
Posted by John Schulien (Member # 215) on 12-26-2002, 02:29 PM:
I'm looking at the Simplex parts diagram and I see the taper pins. However, this mechanism doesn't use taper pins. Instead, it has a nut and bolt running through the sprocket. In addition, the sprocket has nice little cuts in it that lead me to believe that it is in fact designed to easily slip off the shaft:
The screw isn't really damaged -- that's just the way the light fell on it when I took the picture.
So far I have three "don't try it" votes, one "you can probably do it", and a couple of pieces of email. One was a reference to a local fellow, another suggested that I try changing the oil, and a third suggested that I could safely remove the screws, seperate the intermittent in half, inspect the star and cam for damage, and reassemble the mechanism if it's ok, and that I check the play in the cam adjustment in the back. (It just barely moves front-to-back.)
I feel that I should at least change the oil. I don't know how old the oil is. How much oil should there be in the intermittent? Before I removed the intermittent, I checked the oil window with a flashlight, and saw the oil burbling up and down. Is that the proper level, not enough, or too much? I ordered some LeVezzi intermittent oil, which should be in tomorrow.
Thanks for all the advice!
- John
Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 12-26-2002, 07:59 PM:
John,
THe Wenzel did use the same intermittent as the Simplex Standard, Super, Kaplan, etc. I believe Wenzel purchased theirs from LaVezzi direct. It looks like your intermittent has already been updated to the 5/16" star and sprocket so some parts are still available. I, like John E., also have lots of old parts. Intermittents run to such a close tolerance that unless you have a spare and some spare projector gears and you wish to play with it, I wouldn't mess with them. Once you take one apart the gasket may break, or you may not get the movement back to proper star cam adjustment or there could be other things wrong with it. It might be cheaper to find another one. There are probably a few of them lying around. Change the oil and see what it does. If there is not a fill line next to one of the sight glasses rotate the frame knob untill both sight glasses are at the same height and fill 1/2 way on the glass. Some intermittents may be slightly different but they are simular. Do this with the machine NOT running. Put a couple of drops in the oil fitting on the top of the outer bearing arm or just put a drop or so on the starshaft at the outer bearing. Hope this helps.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-26-2002, 08:26 PM:
John, As Dick mentioned that movement has the 5/16" star shaft. IMHO, I'd look around for a good taper pin movement as thats more true to what should be in it. Dick, do you agree?
Mark
Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 12-26-2002, 11:57 PM:
If John is trying to restore the projector close too origional I would agree. A taper pin movement is what the machine was built with and I would think they would be easier to find. By the way John there are 4 adjustments plus gasket to your intermittent to set it up assuming all the parts are OK and one to one gears are installed in the same order. (non taper version)
Posted by John Schulien (Member # 215) on 12-27-2002, 02:48 AM:
Mark,
I'm not terribly concerned about restoring to original condition. As a matter of fact, I'm not going for that at all. The projector head has already been upgraded with LaVezzi sprockets and a LaVezzi intermittent. I think that the sprockets are fox sprockets. The inside of the projector had been (poorly) repainted. I was able to recover the original paint on the frame, but the case was too far gone, and I've stripped the case of its peeling paint and started a rather non-original, non-standard, and somewhat dramatic airbrush repaint.
The case is missing the bottom back cover. I've had no luck finding this part. Someone, instead of purchasing the proper replacement case component for forced air cooling of the gate, drilled holes in the case and installed a blower panel. I've had no luck finding either the correct air-cooled gate panel, or an unmodified gate case panel.
Somewhere in the world there should be a museum-piece version of this projector, in dead-mint condition, but this isn't going to be the one, and that doesn't bother me a bit.
What I'm after is a quiet, reliable, well-running machine. Original is nice if original was best, but from what I understand this intermittent is an improvement over the original, and I have no desire to downgrade anything for authenticity's sake, although I would certainly be willing to do so if I were attempting to create a museum-quality piece.
Should I be? Is this a terribly rare projector head? The head is S/N 7618, so I suspect that there are other examples in more original condition.
Dick, can you elaborate on those four adjustments? Can you explain what you mean by installed in the same order. If it's too demanding, I may well decide not to attempt the disassembly, but I'd really appreciate the exact details of what's involved. I'm doing this project half because I want a projector, and half because I'm enjoying the learning experience.
Thanks, John
Posted by John Schulien (Member # 215) on 12-27-2002, 05:33 PM:
Well, I replaced the intermittent oil. It was low. I reinstalled the intermittent, replaced the necessary gears, and lo and behold the noise is gone. The intermittent makes no noise whatsoever when I run the projector without film, and it's much quieter when running film.
So it looks like I won't be risking intermittentcide after all.
Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 12-27-2002, 07:46 PM:
John,
I am glad that's all it needed. They do get noisy without or low oil.
No your machine is not rare. There are lots of them out there. In 1953,54 most all projectors were converted to small teeth, C/S, or fox hole sprockets for magnetic sound film which you have on the intermittent. LaVezzi made bunches of conversion kits for this which included the LaVezzi sprocket guard showing in your picture.
Rather then try to properly explain the intermittent adjustments to you download from the manuals section the Super Simplex unpacking, adjustments, etc. That has all instruction needed except the sprocket which yours being newer screw & nut sprocket. Only differance will be starshaft end play settings. Check that out and if you have any questions please ask. This manual will have other answers to working on your machine as the Super is simular. Best of luck.
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-27-2002, 08:14 PM:
One can always rig some sort of a test stand with timing pulleys and a varible speed motor and see how smoothly an intermittent does or doesn't run.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-27-2002, 10:59 PM:
Funny that none of us thought of having him check the oil......Shame, Shame everyone.
Mark
Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 12-27-2002, 11:09 PM:
Mark,
Looks like ya missed one of my posts
Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 01-06-2012, 10:39 PM:
It has been 3296 days since the last post.
Posted by Jim Henk (Member # 3628) on 01-06-2012, 10:39 PM:
Closest post I could find in the topic -
I'm getting a Century JJ this weekend, and have been told that the intermittent "weeps some oil". Without actually seeing it yet, sounds like old spongy gasket(s)? Not an entire rebuild question, but how difficult would it be to change them out if that's indeed the problem?
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-06-2012, 10:52 PM:
Jim:
Depends on where it's weeping oil from.
If it's from the case and cover gasket, no big deal, gasket is pretty easy to replace. You will need to play with the mesh of the cam and star when resetting the cover.
If it's leaking from either the star or cam shaft bushings, beware, that is rebuild time..not a cheap or easy proposition especially with a JJ.
And if the oil sight glass is opaque with what looks like copper particles, the intermittent is toast. That will need a total rebuild.
Best bet is to RXO it with LIT. They do good rebuilds on movements.
Posted by Robert Koch (Member # 3728) on 01-07-2012, 03:44 PM:
A Wenzel certainly doesnt deserve as good a movement as that one is.
Posted by Markus Ito (Member # 6207) on 01-12-2012, 09:02 PM:
I have a similar problem with the intermittent on my Simplex. The gasket is definitely to blame but I have yet to find out where to purchase a replacement. Does anyone know where I might get one?
As a side note, the sight glasses on the intermittent are a dark brown color, making it very difficult to see the oil level, but it runs quietly with no problems, so I hope its just discoloration from the oil that has been sitting in it for 20 years.
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-12-2012, 10:01 PM:
Markus,
Strong should still have those gaskets available, Wolk has them IIRC and I might even have one left in stock. PM me and if you want a screaming deal on a very good condition spare I can hook you up.