Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: DTS 6AD Problems

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Posted by Jeremy Spracklen (Member # 18) on 12-28-2002, 11:05 PM:

The theater that I work at opened a little over a year ago with brand new DTS 6ADs. By now, everyone has become used to them not working (this week there is only one that will make it through an entire show in digital). The fact that most of the units will not play in DTS is not really that much of an issue, as they will typically just drop to the emulated SR. However, one of the units (#4), takes the opposite approach and plays DTS too much. One week, we had a ‘double up’ and the player would cut in and out with the audio from the other film. It was playing DTS from the wrong title, then when it dropped out, it would play the SR from the correct one, switching randomly back and forth between the two tracks every couple of seconds. I am also now hearing complaints that it plays the movie audio between shows when it should be playing non-sync!

Does anyone know how we can fix this problem, or is this just something that that happens when the players get about six months worth of use on them? Perhaps this is just a freak thing with this particular batch of 6AD units. Please help!

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 12-28-2002, 11:41 PM:

Sounds like maybe you should check to see if the software and firmware is current. Also, DTS units don't like it when there are more than one set of feature disks in the drives. Use only the needed featured disks for that particular show, and then switch em out.

Seen some problems with these units displaying strange behavior because of trailer disks as well.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-29-2002, 12:57 AM:

Am I to understand that you have disks from different films loaded at the same time? Load only the correct disks (and trailer disk if any) and then get back to us.

Posted by Darren Crimmins (Member # 1116) on 12-29-2002, 01:53 AM:

While the theater should have had the correct discs in, that is not the issue he is talking about, it is only a side note. It should not even matter becasue the units are not supposed to play the wrong discs. If anything it is good that the wrong ones were in there because now he knows that there is another technical problem that needs to be dealt with. And I am sure that that was a one time mistake by the projectionists that anybody can make. I know those guys over there and I know that does not happen often. So if there is anyone who can give Jeremy a hand with the real problems that he is having from his posts, please let "us" know. [thumbsup]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-29-2002, 02:22 AM:

Also, knowing which theater Jeremy works at, not all of his movies are in DTS. He said that DTS was playing when Non-Sync should be playing. If that is happening I think it could also play DTS from one movie when the other is supposed to play in fake SR. Do the discs really need to be removed every other show when only one feature of a double up is in DTS? Do they need to be removed when the machine is supposed to be in non-sync as well?

Personally I think all DTS units should have at least 6 drives so multiple movies can be loaded at once. Switching discs can cause scratches and other really bad things to happen to them even when you are super careful, thus limiting the effective life of any movie in DTS until replacements can be had.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-29-2002, 08:38 AM:

Steve, part of the big hoopla when dts was introduced was that it was "smart" enough to know the difference between one movie and another. I have ran double ups for years and in many instances an operator has forgot to change out the discs and the dts unit (digital only player) did what it is supposed to do and sat there quietly letting the SR play. So regardless of whether Jeremy's dts issue was intentional or accidental really doesn't matter. Also, is he supposed to be there when the show is over to remove the discs and then reload them when he restarts the feature? Of course not. How would you like it if you were running a feature in your screening room in dts, then due to a series of events you somehow forgot to remove the set of discs and they started to play over your next movie and during your intermission? I think you would be here asking the same questions. Personally I've never heard of this happening on any dts player, and it should not be happening.

Jeremy, what is the firmware version? I think it states upon power up. If not, check the label on the backside of the processors.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-29-2002, 10:40 AM:

Brad, I'm aware of how it ought to work. I'm simply suggesting that perhaps the firmware didn't anticipate the situation of two different movie ID's (something that can most likely only occur by deliberate choice of the operator, as opposed to accidently leaving the wrong disks in) OR has some bugs that only this misuse will trigger. Once we are off into glitch-land, anything is possible including acting up when it should just be playing NS. Therefore it is entirely reasonable to suggest that he try using the unit by the book and see if that eliminates the problem.

If it does then it becomes a separate issue -- one of update or modification, as opposed to malfunction -- as to whether DTS ought to alter their firmware to allow him to use it the way he was. Or perhaps other versions of the firmware did or do.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-29-2002, 11:45 AM:

But that's just it, "the book" says that if the wrong discs are loaded that it will not play the "wrong sound". That's the whole point of serial numbers. I see what you are trying to get at though.

BTW, does anyone know if you are supposed to reboot the system when changing discs? I have done some screenings at Jeremy's theater and found that the system will ignore newly loaded discs if the power is not cycled. I've never minded doing this on the stand-along dts6 or dts6-D units, but with this processor also carrying the non-sync and analog sound, that's pretty annoying.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 12-29-2002, 03:06 PM:

Jeremy and all others,

I believe that having the wrong disk is not an issue, as Brad said. Having two disk of one film and one disk of another simultaneously it is instead. In a situation like this I had once a movie started in "DIGITAL" but with no sound from the player. If I understood correctly, this happens because two movie's disk can have two different version of "DTS.EXE" file inside that conflicts each other. This is why DTS suggest to power cycle the unit when disk are changed.

So, begin checking if you usually MIX disks in the players. If so, stop doing it!

About DTS sound in the intermission: are you sure that you leaders are not DTS encoded? You mean that DTS players will play sound while projector is completely stop?
In this case I would think of some kind of interference (RF?) that cause the player to see a "ghost" timecode and to start playing randomly. This kind of interferences can explain (I believe) the continuously digital-sr switching.

What about DTS "timecode" LED on the player while film is running? Is it green and steady (not blinking?).

I know a friend that worked for few years in a theater with 5 DTS 6AD with absolutely NO problem at all!

If all of your player has these behaviours... I would not think as a defective ones, I bet that something in your installation is wrong.

let us know better your situation so that we can help you. I know that Karen from DTS is out of office for christmas right now, she surely will help you better when she'll come back.

Bye

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-29-2002, 03:47 PM:

You need to reboot when changeing disks

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-29-2002, 04:05 PM:

Brad and Steve,

From what I'm reading here...Steve is going on the possibility that the theatre is loading two different feature discs at the same time whereas Brad seems to be going on the belief that wrong feature disc(s) (but only one feature disc(s) are in).

If Steve's pick up on this is right then yes, cease loading more than one feature in the player at a time and then we can start diagnosis.

As to rebooting, DTS has always recommended that one reboot the player each time the discs are changed. This will clear its memory, search all disc trays and load the program in a systematic way.

Steve

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-29-2002, 04:07 PM:

Steve's pick up is not right in this instance. Jeremy's post was clear to me and I have verified this with him. There has never been two different features loaded up in the 6-AD players.

On Jeremy's "double up", only one of the two movies being ran in that auditorium was encoded in dts. The other was SRD only (no dts timecode).

It seems like dts could have put a "reset" button on the front panel that could be used when changing discs. If the discs are not put into the unit and the power cycled before the audience starts seating, then they get their non-sync treated to a nice thump/dropout.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-29-2002, 04:12 PM:

One more reason to use a standalone dts player witha real cinema processor such as the csp1200 [thumbsup]

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-29-2002, 04:38 PM:

That is why I began my comments by asking if that (differing movie disks in at once) was the case. Until now no one clarified it.

DTS could stand to come up with some more varied model numbers. DTS-6, DTS-6D, DTS-6AD are all too similar.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-29-2002, 04:47 PM:

Well if no "reboot" button at least a set of "Control", "Alt" and "Delete" buttons!
[Cool]

Steve

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-29-2002, 05:53 PM:

Actually sometimes those would not suffice!

Posted by Bernie Anderson Jr (Member # 410) on 12-30-2002, 03:47 PM:

I've had this happen too. We had a double featrue with both single DTS disks. Wouldn't you know it, it was playing the opposite film's soundtrack. I've never seen that with DTS, but then again this is the AD. I really don't like them. We've had more problems with than they're worth. I have 3 CP500 and have never had an issue with them in SR or Digital. I've had an AD somehow internally swap outputs, putting all the center channel signal through the subwoofer and the only way to reset it was to reboot the system. It sounded like I blew a driver in the speaker. And this was only in DTS, SR I've never had a problem. They're a very strange little machine. It was a great idea though.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-30-2002, 04:39 PM:

Bernie,

Are you saying you loaded BOTH movie discs at the same time? If so, then that is not what is happening here. I spoke to Jeremy this afternoon and he said he would post some specifics along with the firmware number tonight, but in his situation the dts unit is definitely not doing what it is supposed to be doing. Never have they loaded up two different movie discs at the same time. Regardless, in your situation the correct movie should have played (if in the A drive) or it should have just stayed in SR.

Posted by Jeremy Spracklen (Member # 18) on 12-30-2002, 08:10 PM:

The day that the DTS was playing the audio for the wrong film there was
only one set of discs in the machine (obviously the ones for the DTS
film). Therefore, this knocks out the explanations involving two sets of
discs at one time.

Also, the problem involving the digital playing during non-sync is still
not solved. At the time that this happened, it was in the middle of the
day on a movie that had been playing in that auditorium for about two
weeks (with the discs never being removed during that time).

Are these defective, or does the dts6-AD really suffer from these poor
design flaws?

From the "Version" screen:

CPU Version 1.04
DSP Controller 1.03
DSP Firmware 1.09.

Posted by Peter Schoell (Member # 919) on 12-30-2002, 11:12 PM:

I have a DTS 6AD unit that developed a problem with the sound quality after about 6 months. After exchanging a few e-mails with Karen, DTS sent me a new card for the processor, at no charge. DTS had changed a couple of things on the new card, automation wise, so this caused new problems and more e-mails. After things still not working correctly, DTS sent a whole new 6AD unit, at no cost.
One thing I expirienced with the new unit was I could get the movie discs to play if I inserted the set up disc in the "C" drawer, I thought this was a cool new feature. I continued to have intermitent problems with the new unit so I went back to the old unit with the new card and finaly everything got straightened out and has been working fine for a year and a half. This all took place in the summer when things were busiest, and took place over the time of 3 different movies.I suspect now that 2 of the movies had bad discs or timecode tracks, which is very improbable, but...
The main point of this is, Karen and the other techs at DTS were VERY helpful, even though I'm just Joe Blow in podunk MN! I've never gotten service help like that from any other equipment company, or even a sound service company, that no longer exists.
I'm surprised that DTS hasn't been able to solve your problems.

Also I was told by DTS that if you are playing 2 movies in the same house you can have all the discs in the player at the same time, but the unit will use the first movie played as the default. If you remove the disc(s) for the first movie when starting the second , the unit will serch for a matching code and play the second set of discs, without rebooting.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-31-2002, 12:54 AM:

Hopefully new firmware is being written for this machine as we type. Hopefully the firmware will clear its' memory and do a "soft reboot" whenever the drive doors are opened and closed again. That would eliminate turning the entire processor off and then back on, while keeping the non-sync music playing without any interruption. DTS does not know how important that is.

Personallly I think that the 6AD needs to be retired and rethought. After that (with suggestions from active members of Film-Tech, of course) I am betting that DTS could come up with a great combo processor.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-31-2002, 07:41 AM:

Well of course. They can buy a 650 like everyone else. [Smile]

Oh wait...you said a great combo processor. That doesn't really exist yet.

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 12-31-2002, 01:57 PM:

Jeremy,

Check the software version inside the DTS-6AD. Go into the VERSION screen and let me know what it says.

From the symptoms you've described, it sounds like timecode reading problems. When film is running, look at the STAUTUS screen and tell me how many edits you are seeing.

You can also send me an email to discuss this further.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-31-2002, 02:36 PM:

Karen,

Jeremy has already listed the firmware version above. Also, if this is taken off of the forums to figure out the problem, the final resolution needs to be posted here for other people to be able to cross reference in the future.

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 01-02-2003, 02:10 PM:

Jeremy,

The only way the DTS-6AD can play in DTS Digital is if it sees timecode. Be sure that any leader you use does not have timecode. This can cause a false start on the unit.

Are your other DTS-6AD units working properly?

Your software is a bit old and I'd like to send you an uprade disc. Please email me your theater's shipping address.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-21-2003, 02:15 PM:

Did upgrading the firmware fix the problem?

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 03-21-2003, 08:23 PM:

Yes, please let me know if things are better now (and even if they are not). And, only load one movie title at a time. The unit will not work with two different feature titles loaded.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com