Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Millenium with a noisy HDS bearing

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Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 01-19-2003, 10:17 AM:

I have a Simplex Millenium with a noisy P-6693 bearing on the horizontal drive shaft.

The problem as i see it in getting this bearing off, is it being necessary to remove or at least loosen so that it can be moved, the large P-1540 gear so that the bearing can be taken off the shaft. (Vertical shaft has, of course, been removed).

It looks to me, from the drawings like this gear is press-fitted in place and secured to the horizontal shaft with a drive key. No way can one get a gear puller in there.

I assume that a slight hammering is in order here to drive the shaft out of the operating side of the projector.

Anyone found an easy way to do this? Also any generic numbers for this bearing?

Thanks for any help.

BTW thanks to Paul for the suction-gun oil-removal method, changed the oil draining time from 5 minutes to about 5 seconds.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-19-2003, 11:02 AM:

Rick,
Use a driver thats just slightly smaller than the O.D. of the bearing. Usually a socket from your soclet set works out well. See, you really do need a hammer to repair the darn things! I never much liked the arrangement in the bottom of a Simplex much....the bearings should really float in there and be properly preloaded by a three legged spring. I think some of the earlier Simplex's had this arrangement, but that bearing still has to be knocked out anyway, and the preload spring is about useless to do its job properly. New gaskets and better bearings than the 10 cent specials that are installed at the factoy are in order. Also while you have the verticle shaft out you might want to carefully check the lower bearing and the shutter compensator bearings as well. Have seen many failures of the lower vert. shaft bearing and compensator rear bearings...the one by the shutter. Hope this helps.
P.S., The suction gun thing is ok, but does not allow the gunk in the bottom of the sump to flow out!! Rinse the sump if you drain them that way....in fact rinse it anyway!! You'll find that'll take the oil change back to about 5 min anyway.
Mark @ CLACO
www.clacoequipment.com

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 01-19-2003, 11:22 AM:

Thanks, Mark. I was thinking of using a wooden dowel (okay, so the booth broom handle will be slightly shorter than it was).

You are right about the sump. Have found so many of these things clogged, that we now do it as a matter of routine, every time we change the oil.

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 01-19-2003, 01:24 PM:

Mark's point about bearing quality brings up an interesting point.

Many years ago, I had the pleasure of visiting the Strong plant in Ohmaha, just before they moved from the mid-town location to their new plant. I met with one of their engineers, (the name Dwayne or Dwight seems to come to mind). He was quite a brilliant man.

He mentioned that when replacing bearings in sound equipment, one should only use "sound-tested" bearings. I nodded knowingly, in agreement (of course not having a clue what the hell a sound-tested bearing was, but assuming it was a specialized bearing with low noise - made sense to use such a bearing in sound equipment).

Every bearing supplier I have talked to since, however look at me like I am on drugs (and I am not! well, not much anyways) when I ask them if they stock "sound-tested" bearings.

Was this some dry mid-west humor that went over my head, or are there such things?

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-19-2003, 06:06 PM:

Rick, I think there might be, just like a roll test. The making of a bearing with the metallurgy (sp?) technology, the manufacturers of a given bearing can predict quite accurately how long a bearing will run before it wears out. That has been known for years. Ever notice that a rear axle bearing in an automobile seems go go HS at about 100,000 miles? Consistantly?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-19-2003, 07:55 PM:

Rick, I ahe the same problem in Christie projectors with bearing failure....especially out here where it is quite dry. When I replace them(no, you don't have to get em fomr Christie) I always use a bearing with a rubber seal on it. This has cut down the number of service calls drastically and our customers are alot happier. I reccommend this in all places where the rubber seal will not give unwanted drag....such as in sound head scanners......there all you can use is a shield...preferably on one side only. A higher spec bearing....say ABEC 9 could be used in soundheads, but probably with little advantage...and a whole lot more cost. I use rubber seal bearings in Christie platter motors where the bearings are exposed to all the graphite dust of the always wearing brushes. The motors bearings will last far longer. Probably into the second armature job on the motor itself. The secret I believe in the Simplex is to properly pre-load the bearings....and with the tight fit of that bore is impossible to do properly without enlarging the bore a bit.
Mark @ CLACO
www.clacoequipment.com

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 01-19-2003, 11:11 PM:

Mark, you speak of "pre-loading" a bearing. I am not familiar with that term. What does that involve?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 01-20-2003, 08:25 AM:

He means that there is a spring washer (sometimes more than one, and if so they should be placed for maximum effect, not "spooning") in the bore behind the bearing.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-20-2003, 08:52 AM:

Rick,
There is an optimum load against the races of the bearing to get the maximum life fomr the bearing. When a bearing id pressed into the bore as in the case and another on the other side there is no meaningfl fit, nor load on the bearing. Too much pre-load can cause premature bearing failure as in your case. A good example of peoper preloading is the Bodine Christie platter motor. It uses a series of cupped washers against the bottom bearing to provide proper pre-load. The only problem with those motots is that they become full of carbon dust fomr the normal wear of the brushes, and that dust eventually finds its way into the bearing.
Mark @ CLACO
www.clacoequipment.com
Mark

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 01-21-2003, 11:57 PM:

I found that on the old original X-L's they used the same P-1409 bearing on both ends of the shaft. Also noticed how much better they were built too (no dropping that spacer behind the oil junction into the oil on those - the junction was molded to fit).

On the Millenium however, the outer bearing (towards the drive belt idler pulley) (the one that felt like it was full of rough pebbles) calls for a P-6693 type. Not having one of those in stock, I pulled the bearing and compared it to the P-1409 (the one on the film compartment side).

They looked the same size (yeah i know, a great way to judge bearings).
On the P6693, I searched for a number something I could sub - no dice, not even a "Made in China" marking. No calling the bearing distributor to see if he had one, this would require calipers. Unlike the inner bearing which had shields on both sides, this one had no sheilds at all.

It was past 4 and Toronto rush-hour was in full swing. It was a case of find the proper bearing the next day or go with a second P-1409 I had with me.

Made a decision to try it with the P-1409.

Short story - ran just fine.

After reading Mark's post about bearing pre-loading, I am wondering why they would have changed the type of bearing on the side with the most stess.

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 01-23-2003, 07:35 PM:

Rick -- I think the P6693 is a shielded or sealed bearing, with shield or sealed side towards the pulley. Can't remember, have to look when I'm back in the office. The P1409 can be an open bearing. There have been different combinations used over many years by us and previous owners of the projector.

I'll try and look at that tomorrow and make a post then. Maybe Dick remembers?

Pat

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 01-23-2003, 11:47 PM:

Thank you, Pat.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-24-2003, 01:51 AM:

Rick,
Get a bearing with a rubber seal on one side only to put towards the drive pulley, and open(no seal, or shield on the oil side. That way the rubber seal will keep any belt particles from getting into the bearing if the shaft seal wears....which they typically do. I've seen that area on X-L's all gunked up with rubber particles mixed with oil! Yuck! And it wears out sels, and stuff fast too. A new seal there is also in order and only costs a few bucks. It presses out of, and back into the bearing retainer. Some of the older retainers had bearings that were glued/siliconed into the retiner...I have not seen one in quite a long time, but be on the lookout for that style. Its best to replace the bearing and retainer with the new style if you run into that type.
Mark @ CLACO
www.clacoequipment.com

Posted by John T. Mellor (Member # 468) on 01-24-2003, 08:35 AM:

The bearing retainer is also the part that sets the pre load on the bearing the inner part of the retainer is in contact with the outer race of the bearing.
The operator side of the shaft should have a spring washer to push the bearing and shaft into the proper position and load on the bearings .
The differance in the part numbers is the differane in the same bearing ,no shields , one shield [metal], two shields
Most bearing manufatures use the ZZ metoud of designating shileded bearings ie. 6201 no shields , 6201Z one side shielded,6201ZZ both sides shielded There is another designation for the seals [rubber] that Mark spoke of in an eairler post but the letter designation escapes my old brain right now.
Using a better grade bearing and changing the oil on a regular basis can extend the life of the machines for a long time,I have two XL's that were made in 1950-51 and they run better that the new one's

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-24-2003, 08:49 AM:

Actually there is a 3, or 4 legged spring thatas against the race of the film side bearing that does the preload. The problem I've seen is that the bearing bore is a bit oo tight and that outer bearing eentually freezes up in the bore and doesn't allow the preload spring to do its job.....
I'll post pictures later today so you can see what I mean as we have a pile of X-L's going through rebuild in the shop right now.
Mark @ CLACO
www.clacoequipment.com

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 01-24-2003, 09:38 AM:

My present bearing supplier is selling only bearings with both sides shielded with instructions to use a small-blade screwdriver to remove unwanted shields. Is this standard practice nowadays or should I start looking for another supplier?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-24-2003, 10:18 AM:

Yea, Rick, that is ok. Some bearings, especially the ones with rubber seals only come with them on both sodes. If you are neasy about pulling off one of the seals have them do it.
Mark @ CLACO
www.clacoequpment.com

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 01-24-2003, 04:32 PM:

Actually, I have been doing it for some time, especially with replacement bearings for the 5-star sound-drum. I just wondered if I was paying for a more expensive bearing than i really need.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-24-2003, 04:38 PM:

Rick, The cost should be about a dollar difference.
Mark

Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 01-24-2003, 05:30 PM:

Mark,

I like your idea about the rubber seal bearing in the Simplex Head. I have been doing the same thing in my Gear Box rebuilds. both the RCA and Simplex Call for a 6202 bearing, I buy the rubber sheild version, and pull of the side facing the oil bath. As far as simplex main drives are concerned I was always under the impression that the bearings should slip fit to allow for spring loading. I have done well over 50 simplex projector head rebuilds and it seem to be hit or miss on this issue. Most of the old black XL machines require a little honing on my part to get the proper slip fit. While the light blue version tend to need no work at all. You should be able to push on the main drive shaft and have it spring back.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-24-2003, 05:44 PM:

Randy,
You are exactly right....it is very hit and miss. Not sure what was happenning on the old ones. I use a brake cylinder hone to lap them out so you barely have a slip fit. I sometimes wonder if the older oils were somewhat acedic and caused a reaction in the bore between the steel race and the alumnium casting. Anyway, the brake cylinder hone works well but do it by hand only, it does not usually need but to be cleaned up a tad!!

Here is a link to a Barden write up that explains the whys and hows of preloading a bearing.
http://www.bardenbearings.com/PDF%20CD/PB11.PDF
Mark @ CLACO
www.clacoequipment.com

Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 01-25-2003, 04:47 PM:

Mark,

I got the same problem of oil spilling on the horizontal main drive shaft on a Simplex 1050 I want to replace the two balls bearing by rubber shielded models. My question are: How can I do to remove these bearings ? I have the idea there muss be maintened by a sealant (i.e. Loctite). Should de main vertical shaft assembly really removed to access the horizontal main shaft ?
Another problem: I have to replace the sleeve bearing on the uper feed sprocket assembly, for the same problem of oil spiling, on the same projector. But is impossible to remove them. I't seems to me that these sleeve bearing are tight glued, do you have an idea to remove these parts ?

Any help will welcome, and accept my apologyses for my really weak English [Wink]

Bye,

Jean-Michel

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-25-2003, 11:31 PM:

Hi Jean Michael,
Does this Simplex 1050 have the main shaft seal where the drive pulley/gear is attached? I suspect that it does not. However, if you find that it does then you need to completely replace it because it is worn out. Also, just order the new entire seal kit that Strong sells to do this job. The new seal kit will have everything that you need to do the job. Perhaps Pat Moore can pipe in with the part number on that one.... Specify what type of sound reproducer and pulley type when you order the kit....or you might not get the correct type pulley. There are two pulley possibilities....the round tooth metric type, or the XL pitch type, or if you have an older sound reproducer that has a gear box drive, then there would be a gear instead of a pulley.

Replacing the bearings should be pretty straight foreword to do. Some people do use a sealent on the gaskets on the film side bearing retainer(P-1547) and drive side bearing retainer(P-1548). This can make removal of these a bit tricky. Using a sharp edge under the edge of the bearing retainer will usually pop them free. If you use Strong's gaskets to replace them don't worry about sealent as they seal really well. Just be sure the sealing surface is spotlessly clean!!
Take a look at the main drive shaft exploded view in the Simplex X-L manual(1960 version) to see how this is put together and you will see how it goes in there......use a seal driver, or something equal to the outer diameter of the bearing to tap them out of the bore if necessary. Never tap or push on the inner race of any bearing. You will ruin it instantly! Clean the bores very good and put some oil in them, then re-assemble in the reverse order with the new seal kit. Keep in mind that a little seepage from a Simplex is normal....rarely will you ever see one that does not leak at all. I have to say that Strong has done an excellent job to diminish the leaks down to a drop or two now and then. The main castings are also of far higher quality than they have ever been and are not so porus as to allow oil to seep right through the alumnium. The Powder coat finish also helps seal the main casting really well.

As to the upper sprocket dripping at the bushing.....I have had this happen only a couple of times in past years. Its possible that the felt plug (P2891) has come out and the upper sprocket assy. is getting too much oil into it. This would cause excess oil to seep past the shaft. Also, there is an oil drail hole below this assembley on the gear side that might be plugged. Check all this out before you tear it apart. It is possible that the bushings are worn, but this is also rare. They have to be pressed out and new bushings pressed in place very accurately so they protrude the same amount as the old bearings did. I suppose they could be installed on the projector too. Tapping the old bushings out, and then squeezing the new in place with a bolt with washer at each end to protect the face of the bushings. It might be difficult to get them aligned just right though. If you remove any of the sprocket assembleys to work on them be sure to use a new gasket when you re-install them. You will also have to set the gear mesh....so pay attention to what it was so you can get it pretty close to the original clearance.
Hope all this helps out..... Its not really that hard to work on them...just think it through before you actually do the work and be sure to have all necesary parts at hand.
Mark @ CLACO
www.clacoequipment.com

Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 01-26-2003, 02:10 AM:

Mark,

Thanks for you help, But I have an another question: Do you know if the bearings on the horizontal main drive shaft, are "standard" models, i mean that easy alvaible on local European market, or if they are specialy designed by Strong-Simplex for this projector ?
Another question: The felt plug (P-2891) what kind of material is ? I wanted to make a probe with another material before order it. I was surprised that this felt plus can be ordered, In the first issue of the part list, this plug don't was alvaible.
I hope that the ball bearing are not glued on the casting ! I replaced 2 times the oil seal and the problem still the same...
Wish me good luck to do this job ! [Big Grin]

Bye, and thanks for your help

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-26-2003, 11:20 AM:

If you've already replaced the seal then its leaking someplace else in the general vicinity, or perhaps fomr the oil gauge....especially if it is the front mounted type.

Is the seal you replaced glued into the bearing retainer, or pressed in? Some of the older type were glued in place anbd rarely work at all. Thats why I reccommended getting the entire seal kit from Strong. The new type is pressed into the retainer and allows for almost perfect alignment. Another thing to check is the hub of the pulley that it seals to. If there is a groove in it then it also has to be replaced....it will simply tear up the new seal in a short time. You cannot offset the hub fomr the seal to effect a new sealing location either....has to be replaced. The bearings are very common, but the rubber seal variety will not help to keep oil from leaking out. There are sometimes oil drain passages in the bottom of that gear side bearing bore....Its the main shaft seal that keeps the oil in the machine. The rubber sealed bearing does help keep gunk from a failed shaft seal, and belt black crap from getting into the bearing and oil. Thats the only real reason to use a rubber sealed bearing there. I would go take some pics, but lost my battery charger for my Kodak Digital camera........will try another route though so you can see what I mean....
Mark