This is topic The Logic of Threading a Projector Top to Bottom in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-20-2003, 03:32 AM:
 
I have been wondering why most people in the world are trained to thread a projector beginning at the top and work their way down. There is ZERO logic in doing this. What is the advantage? Nothing!

-If you start at the bottom and work your way up and you didn't pull enough leader, you end up pulling more from the top automatically. If you start at the top and work down and didn't pull enough leader, you are screwed.

-Working bottom up it is easier and much quicker to make proper loop sizes without having to go back and make adjustments.

-Threading bottom to top keeps the leader off of the floor.

So why are people trained to thread top down?
 

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Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 01-20-2003, 03:47 AM:
 
Because it is more intuative. The film travels down in that direction so for some people it is easier for them to learn that way. The picture enters the top sprocket moves through the gate and then out over the lower hold-back sprocket so some people feel the need to thread it in that order. Also im sure that ignorance, unwillingness to change, and laziness add to it a lot. I always try to teach people the "correct" way bottom to top when I train them. One new memeber of these forums actually mocked me to an NCS Technician because of the way I threaded. That tech became curious and asked me to show him. When I explained the why's to him he thought it was a good idea so I guess you could also add fear of ridicule by your peers too! Some people cannot handle change or different ways of doing things.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-20-2003, 03:48 AM:
 
I thread reel to reel from middle, to bottom, to top without getting the leader on the floor and without ever having to pull more from the top or having to advance the machine half threaded, etc.

OTOH, I thread machines using platters from bottom to top.

Maybe it's because most changeover houses don't have chairs to sit in while threaded and the projectionist (often getting up there in age j/k ) wants to avoid bending down and leaves the bottom till the end.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-20-2003, 04:07 AM:
 
When using platters I always thread bottom to top regardless. There is never an instance where it is easier (or better) to thread top down.

When running reel to reel I normally thread top to bottom. All I do is figure out one time how far to pull the leader at the upper constant feed sprocket (in relation to the floor) and then thread down. It is much easier to do it this way since it is necessary to attach the leader to the takeup reel and have a full revolution's worth of film so it grips the reel. (From that point I will motor down to the start frame, as I always add a generous amount of extra leader when running on reels.) However if I am working with "leaky" projectors that require me to do more than let the very tip of the leader hit the floor from that point, I will hook the leader into the takeup reel and then start threading down, or on some machines hook the leader into the takeup reel and thread up from that point. Generally though I do find it easier to thread reel to reel top down.

Many people start with the film gate/trap, then thread up and down like Daryl. I've never really bothered to do that as I always pay attention to where on the constant sprockets a frameline should be when the intermittent is cued to a specific point. As far as penthouse readers, I thread them on the first few feet of leader and pull the film down from there. Really it just all depends on the setup when dealing with changeovers. Whatever is easiest for the particular booth and whatever keeps the film off of the floor.
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-20-2003, 04:32 AM:
 
It's from the reel-to-reel days. A short time ago, Steve Geiger (who was chief of General Cinema's technical dept.) showed me the bottom-to-top method and I was very impressed. It made perfect sense, and it certainly was the answer to keeping the film off the floor.

Although, I don't know that it would make sense to thread bottom-to-top with continuous picture service (i.e., two-projector, reels).
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-20-2003, 04:35 AM:
 
When working changeover booths, I seem to never have the benefit of having both framelines and light to see the framelines. It's usually one or the other. Hence my starting at the gate and threading the rest by look and feel.

I actually thread down from the gate too. It drives everyone I know nuts. They all go up first. I thread the feed sprocket last because any bit of bounce or extra slack always seems to get caught on the changeover linkage of a Simplex. Threading the feed sprocket last seems to prevent this on those darn leaky Simplexes.

Brenkerts on the other hand I thread both ways, top to bottom or bottom to top (depending on the size of the takeup reel). Those I can thread in frame and to the perf on each sprocket, without starting at the gate, with my eyes closed. Of course after working with a V5 or even a Century, I'm often afraid I'll knock over the little BX-60.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-20-2003, 08:06 AM:
 
I mostly work with Century heads (on Century, SH-1000, or Western Electric soundheads). On these, I thread the intermittent sprocket first, then close the gate, then set the upper and lower loops and thread the soundhead and (if reel-to-reel) the takeup reel. I thread Cinemeccanicas the same way; with Simplex and Kinoton (where the intermittent shoe is part of the gate), I find it easier to thread the upper loop before the intermittent.

I was never really trained to thread projectors; I was just given a threading diagram and figured the rest out myself. Since I'd always threaded 16mm machines top to bottom, I used the same method for 35mm. The top-down method is more intuitive for most people, since that is the direction in which the film moves (VistaVision projectors notwithstanding). With practice, the leader won't touch the floor (or will just barely touch).
 

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Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 01-20-2003, 09:00 AM:
 
I found threading the Vic 8 from bottom to top was easier than top to bottom.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-20-2003, 12:28 PM:
 
I always thread from the gate opposite directions especially on the DP70 and 75's it is a lot easier
 

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Posted by Bernie Anderson Jr (Member # 410) on 01-20-2003, 02:13 PM:
 
I too, thread bottom up on platters. Many laughs from other operators. But then these are the same people that pull the leader through the top roller onto the floor and still manage somehow to thread on 3. I had another operator that learned as a manager at Redstone and he too would get laughed at. Restone, in the past, trained all their managers to thread bottom up. But it makes perfect sense, especially when it comes to Dolby Digital readers and SDDS. How many times after you're done would you go back and set the tension on the digital heads?
 

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Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 01-20-2003, 02:13 PM:
 
When I was shown how to thread a projector, I was shown to thread from the top to the bottom. So that's what I did at that theatre, and the next theatre I worked at.

Three years ago when I first started at my current theater, I was advised (by fellow 'film-techer' Jon Bartow), to take a crack at threading from the bottom up. I'll admit it - the first day or two I was threading from the bottom up, it felt all ass-backwards to work that way (I had two years of working in the opposite direction set into my muscle memory) ... but I kept at it, as I realized how much smarter it was. I've also found that I can thread faster from the bottom up than I ever could from the top down. Go figure.
And yes, the people I've trained on how to thread since then, I've trained to thread from the bottom up.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 01-20-2003, 03:20 PM:
 
I am intrigued.(sp?) I was taught to thread top down, saw everyone I know do it that way, and I still do it to this day.

I never had to "re-make" loops, always in frame, but that leader thing would always get me. Sometimes it would hit the floor, sometimes it would stay suspended in the air, depending on how much slack I left.

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If you start at the bottom and work your way up and you didn't pull enough leader, you end up pulling more from the top automatically. If you start at the top and work down and didn't pull enough leader, you are screwed.

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This I don't understand, and I encountered the opposite problem when trying to teach myself to thread bottom-up. I find it hard to do with Strong platters, trying to keep the threading pin to stay put.

On some of the machines at my complex, it's impossible to thread just the top magazine roller and leave the bottom one for when threading because of cables and conduits in the way.

Still, one of these days when I don't have a billion things to do, I will take the time to learn the other way. There's really no point to my efforts, though, since everyone else threads by pulling the leader onto the floor as fast as possible so the first 30 seconds of the first trailer are wrapping around themselves and around the brain. *sigh*

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Tim Turner (Member # 1109) on 01-20-2003, 03:48 PM:
 
I was taught to thread from Top to Bottom also, but after reading some of the TIPs on film handlning 101 guide on this website I have been threading from Bottom to Top for about a year now.
I am aware of the problem of the leading touching floor, pickimg up dirt and dust and then being carried into the projector and platters.

But I'm the only projections who threads this way in the booth. The other projectionist have tried it but they have problems with the takeup arm and platters pulling the film. It does take alot of practice if you're used to threading Top to Botom, took me a week or two to fully master it. Now I do it with out thinking much.

When I train people to thread though, I always teach them from Top to Bottom, because everyone esle in the booth does it that way don't want to confuse them.
 

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 01-20-2003, 03:52 PM:
 
I have only worked with two brands of projector: Kinoton and Simplex (several models of each). I started to teach myself the bottup-up method for one reason: to keep the leader off the floor. I have found that it is much faster and easier with Kinoton. But with Simplex, I thought it was much easier the old way: start with the gate so that it is in fram, then thread up and down. Doing it like this I never had to remake loops. Since I started threading bottom-up on Simplex, I have had to ocassionaly remake the lower loop, and I find the whole process generaly more difficult. I guess it's just a matter of personal opinion which way is easier. The only reason I continue to do it is the reason I started to do it: to keep the leader off the floor.

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I find it hard to do with Strong platters, trying to keep the threading pin to stay put.

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That's an easy one. As you grab the leader to start threading your projector, I imagine the pin gets dislodged, right? No problem. Once you have the film threaded on the lowest sprocket, the bottom leader isn't going anywhere. The elevator will travel to the top, so the leader will be nice and tight between the projector and platter. Make sense?
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-20-2003, 04:20 PM:
 
I think it is a matter of how one was taught. I do mine from top to bottom. Brad showed me how to do it from bottom to top, but I was all left thumbs when I tried it. It was like wiping myself with my left hand. I said to myself, "Screw it!"
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-20-2003, 04:39 PM:
 
We'll have a mini-training seminar next time you come to town Paul. It's easier and MUCH faster.
 

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Posted by Jennifer Osborne (Member # 1220) on 01-20-2003, 04:46 PM:
 
I was also taught to thread top to bottom. While lurking around here one day I found out how to thread bottom to top and the benefits of doing things this way. So I started threading bottom to top, and tried to get my co workers to do the same . . . unfortunately the trend never caught on.
 

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Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 01-20-2003, 05:13 PM:
 
I was also taught top-to-bottom, but for the last six months or so I have tried the bottom up method. The main reason I switched is to keep the leader off the floor. I havent noticed much of a change in threading speed, but if every one of our operators did it this way, I bet our trailers would look a little better

Josh
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 01-20-2003, 05:31 PM:
 
I'm gate first, then upper sprocket and loop, then down. But I'm reel to reel and want to thread on a specific frame, usually Picture Start. It's different if you're threading on any old frame.

Another way for a platter operator is to bypass the projector and lace up all the way back to the platter, then come back and do the projector. That keeps film off the floor and you can thread the projector any way you wish.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-20-2003, 05:40 PM:
 
Steve, that's the method I use.

Brad...you're on! Hopefully that can happen this summer if Josh and I make another trip.
 

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Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 01-20-2003, 05:51 PM:
 
At the moment I don't have the time to research the tips section for this answer and would like a practical use answer anyways. Almost everyone who posts says that bottom-top is "better", I would like to know why. Aside from the leader dragging and loop size problems, what benefit is there? I would agree with those two reasons if they were ever problems with my threading. However, when threading my Strong platters and projectors I would start at the platter of course which were on the left of the projectors in all but one instance, pull the film over the top roller and thread it through the bottom roller back over to the takeup tree and thread the platter. There was always tension on the film so it never touched the floor. I would then turn around and thread the SDDS unit (top mounted and on 10 of the 20 screens) then work top-bottom from the top sprocket to the failsafe detector mounted on the bottom of the projector head. As I threaded the projector head the tension tree would be pulled up farther which eliminated the need to set that at a proper height and also keep proper tension while threading. Loop sizes were always uniform, never having one pop loose.

I am really just curious about the benefits as I cannot see a reason to change the way I was taught which worked very well for me for almost 4 years and for those I worked with. I do recall upon checking threading by one person who threaded bottom-top that their loop sizes were consistently too small, often causing a popped gate. That of course could just be due to their idea of a proper loop size and not the way they threaded, but it made their advocating of the bottom-top method less appealing if they could not even size loops properly. I have threaded up bottom-top before and have to agree with Paul's "ass-wiping" analogy and I had to resize my loops a couple times because it just felt all out of right. Just my experience.
 

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Posted by Daniel Burns (Member # 1549) on 01-20-2003, 06:06 PM:
 
At my last theatre we started threading syncs bottom to top to make it easier. Now we're training people to do it on a regular basis. I believe were the only AMC around here to do so.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-20-2003, 06:32 PM:
 
Barry, are you disengaging the platter's takeup motor or something? Once you put the film into the upper constant feed sprocket there is just not enough film in the platter's accumulator to be able to thread the rest of the projector. Perhaps you could reword.

Paul, you do know that you have to be able to thread the projector and penthouse reader with proper size loops and in frame in under 10 seconds to graduate, right?
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-20-2003, 06:55 PM:
 
Fine with me, Brad. I would like to be in a position where I can thread that thing as fast as you can, and still be able to give an grin like someone I know...
 

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Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 01-20-2003, 07:31 PM:
 
On our Strong platter/Christie projector setup (with platters on non-operator side) I pull the trim ring (center, whatever you want to call it) place it on the take-up platter. I turn the motor switch for the take up platter OFF as I thread thru the payout assm'y, over to the projector, down past the lower roller, back to the platter and back onto the take-up platter.

I walk back around and thread up thru the projector making sure that the head of the first ad/preview/etc is just over 1/2 way between the platter tower and upper roller on the projector. Thread thru the penthouse readers and on down thru the projector. Proper loop sizing doesn't seem to be an issue, I always have enough leader to thread both in frame and pull some back to me should I need it for whatever reason.

The final thing I do prior to walking to the next unit is turn the take-up platter motor back on.

I know there are some of you who will question WHY I do this, as it must seem like an extra step or three, but I do so becuase it works for me. I've done it this way for 15 years and leader on the floor is a non issue when threading this way.

Your milage may vary.
 

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Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 01-20-2003, 07:38 PM:
 
I'm beginning to believe, those platters are giving too much chattime between reels
 

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Posted by William Leland III (Member # 1400) on 01-20-2003, 07:55 PM:
 
I was trained Top to Bottom, like most. I have tried Bottom to Top, but saw no point in it. Yeah it was "fun" to try and learn a new technique; I didn't like it or think it help me.

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Scott, I thread just like you on Simplex Projectors. But I make my frame first, close the intermittent gate, then make my top loop, and so on
 

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Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 01-20-2003, 08:40 PM:
 
Maybe I missed it due to my ADS but what about threading bottom to top on a changeover type setup or something like I use?
I feel like it could be done but would just like to see a proceedure.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-20-2003, 09:03 PM:
 
Looks like everyone was taught to thread top to bottom. That's fantastic!!!!! But that really wasn't my question. My question is basically "Why is everyone taught to thread top-down in the first place? Why isn't better teaching more commonplace?" I think Sean McKinnon had the best answer. Though if anyone ridiculed me for threading bottom-up, I would either kick their asses, blow up their cars, set their homes on fire, kill their pets, or just ridicule them for doing things in a far less efficient manner.... whichever requires the least effort from me.

Jason, why not set the take-up switch to Rewind as you begin to thread, thread thru the payout as normal all the while the take-up platter is spinning. Let the "elevator" drop after you thread though it and are guiding the leader to the top roller The take up platter stops spinning just in time for you to wrap the leader around the ring or jam it into the notch. The payout platter may have two or three layers of "wrap" around the brain, but you have lots and lots of leader anyway (or at least you should, right?). You get to the projector and pull from the bottom as you grab leader. The take-up platter engages. Be sure to grab it in a manner so that the elevator is nearly at the top of its travel and doesn't take off wildly. Thread "up" and then you don't have to wander back to the platter and engage the take up motor. Quick. Easy. Efficient. Fun!

BTW, are you saying the leader on the floor is a non-issue because the leader is never on the floor, or just because you feel that getting the leader on the floor isn't something we should be concerned about?
 

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Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 01-20-2003, 09:50 PM:
 


"I started at Concessions. Manager says if I can learn to thread faster, he'll let me work double shifts."

(Thanks, Lewis Hine.)
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-20-2003, 11:08 PM:
 
I can see where it would be easy (after much practice) (and observance of Brad doing it) with the Christie, but it sure looks like a real pain in the rear end to attempt that in a Simplex (any model), PRO-35, Century or a Brenkert. (Or anything with a Simplex SH10**, RCA MI-****, Motiograph, or the Weber SynchroFilm sound head with the magazines installed on the projectors.)

How about the threading of an old Western Electric 211A sound head with a Super Simplex or a Simplex Regular parked on top of it? The 211A didn't even have a sprocket. The output of the Super intermitant went down a film funnel, around the scanner in the sound head, back up into the projector, around the holdback sprocket, right back down through the sound head's fire trap rollers to the take-up reel.

Maybe that's why all us old farts threaded "frame first", then the upper feed, holdback, scanner, Constant speed, and then the lower holdback in the sound head.

What do you think?
 

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Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 01-20-2003, 11:17 PM:
 
Joe,
I meant that my leader never hits the floor.
 

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Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 01-21-2003, 12:55 AM:
 
Steve Geiger is my NCS Tech. He is a great guy and he really knows his shit. He is also not afraid to take suggestions/ideas from others like some techs can be. Ive been trying to get Steve to participate on here.

Barry,

If you would take the time to read the document titled "Improving Your On Screen Presentation" in the "Tips" section you will not that it explains what the proper loop size should be and that most people make them too large thus causing "Standing Scratches".

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First, make SMALL loops. Whoever came up with the “two finger” loop rule obviously never came to the realization that his two fingers put together is not the same size as everyone else’s two fingers. Polyester stock, unlike triacetate, possesses a “base curl.” By this I mean if one was to lay a strip of film with the emulsion side down against a flat surface, only the edges would make contact with the surface as the center of the film would curl upward, towards the base side. This fault alone is why films today run rougher, louder and more erratic than triacetate did. Making small loops, particularly the lower loop, will drastically help and put an end to “standing” scratches.

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Also it would be very difficult for the gate of a Simplex Millenium to open in the manner which you describe because it is locked into place with a pin, also the physics of it dont make sense if the upper loop was to small it would push down on the gate not out, I am confused because I have never ever seen this happen???
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-21-2003, 01:23 AM:
 
Fortunately Sean the later model Simplexes were designed with raised rails to protect the film from getting scratched in the event someone makes a "two finger loop". Of course it will destroy the SRD track, but at least it protects the picture area. Unfortunately, most other projectors will lay down those standing scratches.

BTW off subject a little bit, I have noticed that when I go to theaters that are making huge loops that slap around during operation that their SRD and SDDS never seem to be too reliable after the film has been out a week or two. Hmmm, ever consider those large loops are slapping around causing that damage?
 

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Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 01-21-2003, 02:34 AM:
 
I get really annoyed because some people pick on the way I make my loops and tell me that there too small etc. When I thread a projector I use the fly wheel to advance the projector and observe the loop making its cycle I try to thread so that I can make as small a loop as possible without running the risk of opening the Pad Roller.

I think that when I thread the projectors are quieter and the image is more stable than someone making huge loops.

people still tell me I make my loops to small. But I dont let it bother me anymore because I know that I am doing it properly.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-21-2003, 09:53 AM:
 
The correct lower loop size is such that when the word Pix Start is in the apperture the sync pip diamond is across the cell.
If you are running mag then it is Pix Start in the apperture and the correct Mag Sync diamond across the coresponding head
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-21-2003, 10:49 AM:
 
Gordon is correct. The lower loop size is important to maintain proper analog sound sync. There should be 21 frames between the picture aperture and sound pickup when the audience is very close to the speakers (e.g., small screening room or drive-in theatre). But as Gordon notes, 20 frames is usually used (and marked on the SMPTE 301 leader as "Picture Start" frame and "Sound Start" diamond), assuming about 1/24 second for the sound to travel from the screen speakers to the center of the audience.
 

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Posted by Tony Ratcliff (Member # 1196) on 01-21-2003, 12:16 PM:
 
I cut my teeth working for National Amusements ( Redstone ) and was taught to thread a reel-to-reel top-bottom and a platter bottom-top.

Also, on loop size, I was taught the "2-figure" rule, but from experience have backed off to smaller loops. I agree that my old E-7 runs quieter. I can always tell when my asst mgrs have threaded with too large of loops ( which they tend to do despite my teaching ) - the projector sounds different and louder.

Tony
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-21-2003, 12:35 PM:
 
Maybe they need smaller fingers.

Whoever came up with the two finger rule should have their fingers broken.
 

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Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 01-21-2003, 03:56 PM:
 

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Barry, are you disengaging the platter's takeup motor or something? Once you put the film into the upper constant feed sprocket there is just not enough film in the platter's accumulator to be able to thread the rest of the projector. Perhaps you could reword.

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Sorry Brad, I thought I had been really specific but just realized the gap in my explanation. I actually had to sit here and meditate for a second and go back in time (in thought) and actually thread a projector. It's been a while since I've had to do it and I'm afraid I'm losing it. Anyways, my previous post holds true except that after creating a loop around the projector I would set my frame and lock down the intermittent sprocket first, then the film gate, then the upper sprocket and the SDDS (where applicable). I would then use the "slack" that was on the platter tree to thread between the intermittent and bottom sprockets, the sound head, and the failsafe. Really I was just using the platter tree to thread the bottom half of the projector and it was always enough and the leader never touched the ground. So I'm guessing there are no benefits other than those listed in this thread? I do apologize for not checking the tips section but as is I've limited my wife and I to one hour on the computer per day to avoid internet dependency. Seeing as how I have 2 email addresses to check, a message board to administer and two to post to, by the time I get here I'm almost out of time.

Joe said:

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doing things in a far less efficient manner.

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the projector sounds different and louder.

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I am compelled to comment that I think a projectionist gone blind could still work. In all honesty I have seen more mistakes go un-noticed by simply looking than all the ones I've picked up while training or checking my work by touch and sound. Sure, you would need an usher to wait in the auditorium to help you correct focus or identify a foreign object appearing on screen, but otherwise I am pretty sure I could have run my booth blind-folded. On a bet I threaded up blind-folded once, it just took a while.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-21-2003, 04:10 PM:
 
Barry Martin wrote: "I cut a "training" leader out with 24 frams in clear and the rest in black and practiced for a day threading that up before threading my movies making sure the clear was at the sound reader and in front of the lens, thus ensuring the proper sync. Once I had my loop size memorized (little larger than one of my "trigger" finger) I always threaded that way."

Standard SMPTE 40 specifies that analog sound is printed 21 frames ahead of the picture, not 24.

For most theatres, 20 frames between picture gate and analog sound pickup give proper sound sync in the middle of the theatre (assuming sound takes 1/24 second to travel from the screen speakers). For very small screening rooms or drive-ins, where you sit near the speakers, 21 frames provides proper sync.
 

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Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 01-22-2003, 12:08 AM:
 
I am very appreciative of constructive critisism. I do not take kindly to bieng told I am wrong when I know I am right. I also do not take kindly to bieng mocked to techniciand over my correct practices.

But wasnt this about threading top to bottom?
 

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Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 01-22-2003, 01:14 PM:
 
I have always laced from top to bottom, as I guess most people who grew up woth spools do. However I watch in awe at the superb film handling by staff of SHOWCASE in the UK - these guys run 9 to 14 plexes all day and always lace the Centurys from bottom to top - film never touches the floor, is easy to set the start position and takes seconds. I'm a mere engineer - these guys run up to 60 films a day and think I can learn a thing or 2 from them..
 

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Posted by Mike Baer (Member # 1519) on 01-22-2003, 02:47 PM:
 
I don´t thread bottom to top,because i find on the Vic 5 it´s difficult.
But i do NOT let the Leader touches the floor!
First i attach the Leader at the lower Sprocket,then thread the lower magazin roller and give tension,so that the Platter takes up.Then i grab the Leader from above,so that i have a have enough Film to thread.Then i make the frame in the Gate,then top Loop and then the lower Loop.I think it is familiar with the Clothespin-Technique.
 

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Posted by Scott D. Neff (Member # 185) on 01-23-2003, 12:27 PM:
 
Down towards my last days in the booth I threaded bottom to top... it DOES make much more sense. But I didn't have enough time to get used to the idea. Besides, there's just some nostalgic romance involved in threading a movie the way you were taught (back in your good ole' days).

The problem I always had when training new booth people was that I had other operators who REFUSED to even try different methods so that no matter what I taught the new guys, the old guys would just end up un-learning them by showing them the easiest, laziest way possible.

I think I was still trying to get my Cinema West veterans to thread the entire platter first and THEN thread top to bottom. Most of them still pull ALL the leader through the payout assembly and then let it pile up underneath the projector, THREAD the projector and then bring it all back to the take-up. (and please don't get me started on how many times I told people that if they continued to pull the entire leader through in rapid jerking motions that the brains would get all screwy from too much abuse.)
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-23-2003, 04:23 PM:
 
I was taught to thread from top to bottom and, consequently, that's the way I always taught it. I can thread up or down; it's no different for me.

Last year I tried teaching the bottom-to-top method (after reading Film-Tech posts on this topic) but it proved too confusing to the students -- especially to projectionists who had become accustomed to doing it from the top for years.

In the end, we reverted to the top-down method in the interest of continuity and simplicity. I know of one projectionist who uses the bottom-up method.

HOWEVER, I should point out that we're using Christie CA-21 automations and there's about 80-feet of clearance between our thread marks and the run-down cue -- and the leaders get cleaned before each use and they are replaced about every 12 months -- so it really doesn't hurt anything that gets shown to the public.

I, for one, can't see a difference on-screen in my theatres.

[ 01-23-2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Manny Knowles ]
 

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Posted by Chris Tyson (Member # 992) on 01-23-2003, 05:49 PM:
 
I was taught the old top to bottom, but when I found this site I read the tips and tricks. Then I looked at our brand new Simplex Millenniums we were getting for our new 3plex and decided to try it this way. The first day or two was very different but the more I did it the more I forgot about the old way. It is much quicker and easier for me and even my other projectionists who have been doing it the old way for years thought I was nuts at first then after they watched me they could see it's benifits. I also found a way to get rid of the re-making loops by taking a Sharpie permanent marker and drawing frames lines on the outside of the feed sprocket, holdback sprocket and on the sprocket in the soundhead. All you have to do is thread it up and look at where your frame lines line up on each of the sprockets. Draw a line from the center to the edge between the teeth where your frameline is. Do this all the way around the sprockets on each frame line. (My sprockets have 24 teeth on 2 of them and 16 on my small sprocket in the soundhead, that means I can get 6 frames on each sprocket and 4 frames on the small one. As long as your sprocket teeth are a multiple of 4 you can do this.) Anyway, by doing this, I can always come back and land on the same size loops and tension on the damper roller every time. Plus, you'll always be in frame. At least I've never been out yet. I hope you can understand what I'm saying, if not ask and I'll try to explain more.
 

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Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 08-19-2004, 01:23 AM:
 

It has been 573 days since the last post.

 

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Posted by Robert L. Fischer (Member # 2424) on 08-19-2004, 01:23 AM:
 
After reading comments on the message board and in the tips section, I too have tried "threading up." I don't do it all the time yet because I'm still quite clumsy with it, but I'm willing to change. The problem is, we have SPECO platters, so you have to engage the take-up mechanism by hitting a button. Apparently, before I worked at my theater, folks used to thread with the take-up mechanism engaged, and whenever the film got caught somewhere in the process of threading, the mechanism would rise to its peak position and this excessive tension often resulted in snapped rods on the platter tree.

On top of all of that, I also find it very difficult to get the film in proper position on our Simplex 35 projectors (mounted on top of SH-1000 soundheads) to thread from bottom to top. The likely reason for my problems is that gravity is working against the slack of film instead of with it. The process overall has just been very clumsy and because I have always threaded with the take-up mechanism turned off in order to prevent breaking rods, it doesn't seem like it will save time. Any time I do thread from top to bottom, I end up having to re-open the hold-back sprocket in the soundhead in order to make proper loops. Of course, the most important benefit is keeping film off of the floor, but I'm hoping to remove the clumsiness from the process and perhaps figure out a way to engage the take-up mechanism without spinning it manually. Any suggestions?

EDIT: Someone respond!

[ 08-20-2004, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Robert L. Fischer ]
 

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Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 08-20-2004, 09:02 PM:
 
I too was one of the many sad fellows taught top-to-bottom threading. The happy medium I found until I was able to break the habbit was to clamp the film in the holdback sprocket in the soundhead and then do my thing top to bottom, engage the platter to takeup and let the slack out. I did this on Simplex 35's and Century SA's until a few months ago when I finally bit the bullet and changed my ways.
I've had no big changes in speed this way because I tend to be a bit clumsy with the loops still, but it does have it's obvious advantages.
Personally I believe any way that you can competantly thread the equipment without getting the film on the floor is just fine.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-20-2004, 09:16 PM:
 
Consider this...if you note where the frame line falls on your feed sprockets (after setting the intermittent to just after it stops rotating), you can thread bottom to top without having to reset any loops or tension on any projector.

I've found I'm notably faster on two feed-sprocket machines like Kinoton when threading bottom to top and about even on others or perhaps a bit faster top to bottom.

Steve
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-20-2004, 10:41 PM:
 
Oh boy, something's wrong here. Did Steve just admit to bottom up threading being faster after my preaching the trick to it for years??? Steve, did someone steal your password? Is that really you?
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-21-2004, 01:16 AM:
 
Brad,

If you will note, I qualified my statement (for me at least) to two-feed sprocket machines being faster bottom-up.

Steve
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-21-2004, 03:01 AM:
 
The trick works just as well on 3 sprocket machines.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-21-2004, 03:34 AM:
 
Boy... this is one where the old dog is having troubles!

Lessee... ummmm... forty (ahhemm) five, or so years ago... 16mm school stuff... then theatres, then a couple of decent TV stations, then more theatres... union and not...

Y'know... in all those years, not one single time did I ever have anyone suggest the idea of threading from the bottom up... and in the mid '70s, I spent some time under the watchful eyes of a few of Seattle's pickiest. When I was a kid, the projectionist that introduced me to the real world had his career on the line whenever I went near his machines. I'd never even heard of the idea until I ran into it on this board.

I'll grant that it may be easier to keep the leader off the floor in some kind of bottom-up configuration, but I'm having trouble figuring any other benefit to this.
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-21-2004, 03:59 AM:
 
Long ago, Brad wrote:

quote: Brad Miller

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Whatever is easiest for the particular booth and whatever keeps the film off of the floor.

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quote: Jason M Miller

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old Century Projecters and they are a pain in the butt to thread backwords(I have only done it one or twice) it is very tight in there and going around the sprockets can be a pain in the a$$.

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Are you being serious? What model? I sure wouldn't consider a C, or an SA to be tight in threading at all.

danny
 

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Posted by Robert L. Fischer (Member # 2424) on 08-22-2004, 02:59 AM:
 

quote: Chris Tyson

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I also found a way to get rid of the re-making loops by taking a Sharpie permanent marker and drawing frames lines on the outside of the feed sprocket, holdback sprocket and on the sprocket in the soundhead. All you have to do is thread it up and look at where your frame lines line up on each of the sprockets.

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That seems like a pretty good solution, assuming of course that the marks don't cover any film-bearing surfaces. I doubt my manager would let me mark up the inside of the projector though.
 

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Posted by Edward Jurich (Member # 1787) on 08-22-2004, 11:33 AM:
 
I pull the film from the (SPECO) platter through the projector but bypass everything in the projector then out the projector back to the platter. Then I hand feed the not yet engaged takeup platter until the leader is where I want it. Then start threading at the gate to frame. Film never touches the floor no matter what.
 

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Posted by Josh Kirkhart (Member # 1046) on 08-22-2004, 12:11 PM:
 
An easy solution to those who are not yet comfortable with Bottom to Top.

Do the normal 3-point thread to and from the projector. Your platter and upper guide roller are now taken care of. Pull a small amount of slack and thread from your lower guide roller, up thru your failsafe and over your Lower constant speed sprocket(holdback sprocket)and close the pad roller. Now you can pull just enough excess film from the upper guide roller and thread from top to bottom. You will have a small amount of excess to let flow over your Holdback sprocket to get proper tension on the soundhead. Now just engage your take-up platter and you are ready to go. No film has touched the floor!

All normal threading procedures apply: Setting your intermittent at the end of its cycle, proper loop size, proper sound head tension, etc.

If this has been posted elsewhere, I didn't see it. This is not a better idea than bottom to top or even top to bottom in the case of Barrys method. Just one that allows film not to touch the floor at any step and those that have a hard time with bottom to top can use.

out.

As far as the topic goes I think it does trickle down from the days of reel to reel, but has a lot to do with lazyness and the 'just get on-screen' frame of mind. I can not tell you how many people I have seen just stand at the projector and pull down film from the platter thru the upper guide roller till they had enough to go back to the platter after threading the projector. Thirty feet of film onthe floor is horrible. Yet those that practice that way are the easiest to train into the three point threading because it saves time. It all comes down to someone that comes into a theatre threading wrong and informs everyone else(trained or not) that this is the way to do it, and the trickle begins.
 

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Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 08-22-2004, 01:25 PM:
 
Josh's method is more or less what I do when I'm running festivals at the Mann (formerly Madstone; before that, Mann) Hazard Center 7 theatres. After threading from the platter payout to the top guidance roller and back to the platter, I'll press the makeup button for the takeup deck so the speed control swing arm provides some back tension to keep the film off the floor, then thread the projector in the manner Josh describes. The procedure is very easy to pull off with the Christie AW3s the theatre uses; I don't know whether it could be done with other platter models.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-22-2004, 04:17 PM:
 
Jon, that's the infamous "$300 switch" you are using every thread-up. You should reconsider that.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-22-2004, 04:27 PM:
 
What Dan said. If you want a machine with "no finger room," try the Super (or Standard) Simplex. I just ran a pair of Supers for the first time in a theatre during a festival a couple of weeks ago. They produce quality results on screen, but they aren't my favorite machines to run. Give me Centurys (C, SA, or JJ) any day.
 

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Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 08-22-2004, 05:19 PM:
 
Brad...$300 for that makeup selector switch?!? Are they that rare and/or highly proprietary, or are they made with 100%-pure unobtanium?

Thanks for the tip! I'll have to use a different approach for my next stint this October!
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-22-2004, 07:39 PM:
 
It's easy Jon. Thread the film over the top roller on the projector, then back to the center ring. (Don't wrap the film around the projector and through the lower roller, unless you HAVE to because of a schmutz that installed it with conduit straight to the wall. Your leader will stay cleaner and last longer that way.) Then pull slack from the top down so you can put it in the lower roller, then clamp it to the holdback sprocket. (You should not pull tension from the takeup side, but you shouldn't allow slack here either.) Now thread the failsafe. Pulling slack from the takeup during the failsafe threading will automatically start your takeup platter.

From that point you can finish threading up, or thread down if that works best for you. Regardless, your leader doesn't hit the floor and you aren't wearing out the $300 switch.
 

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