Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: keeping moniter on high volume

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Posted by Mark Maxwell (Member # 1355) on 01-28-2003, 01:39 AM:

I came into work and found out that our' district manager wants all off the moniters on the sound racks to be going full blast because it drowns out the sound of the projectors. The only sound that comes from up ther is the buzzing from the lamphouse which can't be heard from the auditorium. In my opinion, I don't want 6 moniter playing all at once. In the booth it makes it real loud and hard to hear the projectors. Once you've gotten used to your' booth and the noises that it makes, you can hear brain wraps. You might not listen for it, but you notice that one of the platters on #4 continues to spin, Or a platter on #1 hasn't spun in a while. I was up there one time on my day off when our full time projectionist was working. (He does a bad job tucking the tail and has made several platters off limits because they continue to throw movies even though the very experenced tech has checked the motors, variacs, and used a level to make sure the platters aren't tilted.) My point is when I came up there I was at one end of the booth talking to this girl I like, I heard this sound of film slapping against something and started running to the other end of the booth. I caught the movie right before it tossed. To me, if the equipment is in propper order, There shouldn't be any sound from upstairs. I know presentation is important, but at the same time if six moniters are at full blast, you are listening to six movies at the same time it's hard to concentrate on what's going on with the machines unless you are next to them. Is this a common policy. Some of you might hold it against me, but I do totally disregard this policy because I think it impairs my job. And I do believe in keeping the moniters on low so when you walk past a projector, you can hear how the sound is. It just doesn't need to be full blast.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-28-2003, 01:41 AM:

I'm surprised your booth monitor speakers aren't blown. Regardless I don't think you will find anyone who will agree with that policy. The booth needs to have no (or very little) extra noises in it so the projectionist can hear problems. This is yet another reason for theater companies to not "cheap out" by failing to install a drop ceiling and carpet. They help to deaden the room and it makes it much easier for the projectionists to hear problems (and keep their sanity).

Is this an attempt to cover up leaky port windows or something?

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-28-2003, 01:46 AM:

Obviously your DM has never run a booth correctly by himself. He is a paper pusher.

If it gets into the auditoriums, (like some will) the customers will hear it as an echo. As you pointed out, hearing things that may lead to a shutdown and equipment damage is compromised if you have all the monitor speakers blasting noise that will drown out those little "clicks", "clunks", squeaky bearings, you name it.

Posted by Mark Maxwell (Member # 1355) on 01-28-2003, 02:18 AM:

There is one speaker blown, though I don't know why seeing as I only work 3 time a week. The reason no others have blown is because from the start I told everyone the policy is stupid and not to follow it.

Posted by Mark Maxwell (Member # 1355) on 01-28-2003, 02:32 AM:

I tried to post a reply a minute ago but I didin't see it register. We have one blown moniter, the rest are fine. Hopefully because i told the other projectionist that the policy is Stupid!. Brad, When You mentioned the leaky port windows, I was not familiar with that term. If you were wondering if they were anything like the windows on my parents farmhouse built in 1899, you are right on the money.

Posted by Christopher Duvall (Member # 284) on 01-28-2003, 02:32 AM:

Brad is correct, the speakers will be blown. I have always trained everybody under me to never go higher than 2/3 volume and when done listening, turn it back down. You may want to explain to your DM in a way not to set him into a frenzy what the others have suggested here. If something goes down, you will not be able to hear it. On another note, be careful when rallying the troops in the booth. Having everybody disregard the DM could be career suicide. The booth staff will get it in their heads to disregard any rules that come down that they do not like, even if they are good ones to follow.

Has your site been plagued with complaints of sound problems lately? If so, I can see where the DM is coming from. It is just unfortunate that he wants you to go that route. You need to find a way to politely "show him the light".

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 01-28-2003, 03:51 AM:

In a multiplex, I typically leave the monitors on just high enough to tell the audio is working as I walk by on my way somewhere else. That way, if I'm going to the other end of the booth and don't hear anything coming out of the monitor, I'll stop and look in the auditorium to see what's going on.

When doing my rounds, I'll turn the volume up while I'm standing there to judge quality and then turn it back down low (but not off) when I walk away.

In the Imax booth, since there's just the one and the room is soundproof (for the most part), I leave it going so I can comfortably hear it while I'm surfing film-tech. [Smile]

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 01-28-2003, 03:59 AM:

There is almost no reason to have booth monitors 'cranked' or even on at all for that matter.... I always have them on at a reasonable level when I start the show, just to make sure all is well ... but that's it. There is nothing more distracting than having all your monitors playing at once .... We had a guy here that used to do it when I would be in doing a maintainence shift .. it drove me nuts!! [Mad]

and everyone is dead right, you can't hear if anything does go wrong... until it is too late! If your DM thinks having them running full blast somehow makes things better, he is nuts. Tell me, WHERE is this going to drown out the sound? I am guessing he is talking about sound leakage into the auditorium ..... How on earth is 'extra' noise going to solve that? Even if the audience could hear the monitor, it is going to be delayed, and even if it wasn't delayed.... it is not going to cancel any other noise from the port window out.... Explain to him all the reasons not to do this, as others have mentioned here... And also please tell us 'exactly' what the hell he is thinking he is going to achieve? .... I am dying to know! [Roll Eyes]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-28-2003, 07:58 AM:

I agree that having the booth monitors set at high volume drowns out the subtle sounds that a good projectionist uses to sense equipment problems. It definitely risks having the sound leak into the auditorium. If you are really trying to judge sound quality, use headphones to check the processor output, not a small speaker competing with the noise of the equipment. But the best evaluation of sound quality can only be done by listening in the auditoriums on a regular basis.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 01-28-2003, 08:46 AM:

I'm with Adam... I have mine on 'just' enough to hear as I walk past. There's no reason to have them on louder.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 01-28-2003, 09:18 AM:

I agree with everyone else here. The processor will easily output frequencies that the $10 speaker in the booth monitor can't handle - especially if you're running digital or SR. Playing them back at an especially high volume will blow the speaker and make it very difficult to use that speaker later to listen for subtle sound problems.

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 01-28-2003, 09:51 AM:

Many brands of booth monitors use a speaker that is rated BELOW the maximum output of the monitor's amplifier. Just start sending your DM a bill for replacement speakers for the booth monitors!

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-28-2003, 10:24 AM:

It sounds like there is a problem of sound leakage from the booth into the auditorium. Why not introduce Mr. District Manager to the novel concept of ACTUALLY FIXING THE PROBLEM rather than trying to come up with bizarre ways to minimize its effects? Some sealant on the port windows or foam insulation is probably all that is actually needed to improve the situation. Blasting the projectionist with distorted sound is not going to help anything and is more likely to be audible in the auditorium than projector noise.

In single-screen houses and for "big" shows, I normally leave the booth monitor on at a low volume, as a sort of reassurance that the audience isn't listening to silence due to a burned-out exciter or dead amp or something. For normal multiplex use, I leave the monitors turned down all the way when not standing next to them.

Posted by John Spooner (Member # 1565) on 01-28-2003, 10:25 AM:

As Mark correctly states, the monitor level must never be loud enough to prevent the operator from hearing any noise which could signify a fault, this instinct is something we projectionists develop and must not be interfered with.
The monitor is a guide and check for sound, not a noise cancelling device as it seems to be now used for in Mark`s case.

Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 01-28-2003, 10:32 AM:

I say keep the montiors OFF, so you can hear projector/platter problems.
At my favourate location, we keep them on LOW/just on, but because we are not on one level, moving from bio to bio and if hearing a screeching noise then trying to get into the lower projection room (with that damed new fire code key) only to find out it was a noise from the movie, not the projector chewing up the print.

Bill.

Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 01-28-2003, 10:49 AM:

About 15 years ago I worked for cool a company called GUO.

They had some magic device that set off an alarm in bio if there
was no sound output on a screen after about 60 seconds.

A device similar to what networked radio stations use when they get
'dead air'

I'd love about 16 of those - But ones that put the Ex off the air.

Bill.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-28-2003, 12:23 PM:

Bill, when posting back to back...

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 01-28-2003, 01:39 PM:

Geezus, did the guy I worked with get transferred to Texas? That makes about as much sense as having the lens turrets always go to Flat in between shows so the big anamorphic lenses won't bang against the side of the projectors [Roll Eyes]

Why are there so many people in this business who don't know what the hell they're doing???
My rule is- keep the monitors up during the trailers, then if I've seen the movie I'll keep it up loud enough to hear while going by, otherwise I'll keep it down since I don't want to spoil any part of the movie when I finally get to watch it (of course if there's any technical problems, you sometimes have to keep it turned up no matter what.) I keep it set on the center channel only too for my own strange reasons, though that's ended up helping me spot some problems with channel separation (trailers in digital usually have only dialogue in the center, no music.)
If they wanted to drown out noise from the booth in the auditorium, wouldn't it make more sense to turn the main volume up? (That doesn't make much sense either, but more than turning up the booth monitor!)

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-28-2003, 02:00 PM:

I always keep mine all the way down unless there is some reason I want to turn it up (watch a trailer, etc). There is no way that little booth monitor can tell me if I have acceptable sound in the auditorium or not. If there is a minor hum in one of the amps, the booth monitor won't pick that up! Also even if there is a dead amp I'd have to be switching the booth monitor back and forth across all the channels, because I sure won't be able to tell if an amp is dead (unless it is the center) when it is on "mix" or has more than one channel selected.

Only going into the auditorium will tell you if your sound is acceptable.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-28-2003, 02:35 PM:

Normally, I leave the monitors up loud enough to be able to hear it as I walk by the equipment rack. Normally, I monitor the center channel only unless someone tells me there is a "problem" with the sound in that specific auditorium.

Posted by Ray Brown (Member # 1449) on 01-28-2003, 08:31 PM:

I keep ours turned up just high enough so I can hear the movie or the music. Turn it up very loud and the cheapo speaker will hurt my ears. [Mad]

Posted by William Leland III (Member # 1400) on 01-28-2003, 09:34 PM:

Monitors turned up full, I think that is just the dumbest thing I have ever heard [Roll Eyes]

. If my District Manager told me to turn up the monitor's; I would not do it.

Mark it seems to me, you have a good idea what you are doing in booth, so just ignore the upper bull shit that falls down from upper management , and what you think is right.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-28-2003, 09:43 PM:

By the way, whatever you do don't specifically tell your DM that you refuse to follow his orders. And more importantly, do not point him to this thread.

Next time you see him, just ask him politely "why". If he can't give you a reason, then why should you do it? And if his reason is stupid, then you'll get a laugh out of it while you blow the monitor speakers. [Big Grin]

(What make/model of monitors are they anyway?)

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-28-2003, 10:23 PM:

For years my mentor Ed McCormack had a policy for Odeon theatres canada of which he was the chief engineer that the booth monitors must be loud enough that when you walk by the booth it was audible and maintain that standard in where I service

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 01-28-2003, 11:13 PM:

I wonder if all these people making booth operation demands have ever worked a week's shift in the booth before. [Roll Eyes]

DM -- District Manager or Dumbass Manager? [Razz]

=TMP=

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 01-28-2003, 11:20 PM:

When you do blow the speakers in the monitor, he'll probably shoot down a request to get them fixed.

Posted by Franklin Armstrong (Member # 1448) on 01-28-2003, 11:34 PM:

I keep them off in my booth so I can hear the projectors!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-28-2003, 11:39 PM:

We all need to install panes of glass to put at an angle in between the lens and port windows. This way we can see an image on the wall of the booth as we walk by. The way I see it, if we are listening to the audio of a movie, but not the actual reproduction of the audio in the theater, then seeing a reflected image of what is on screen should be just as good as looking at the actual picture that our customers are viewing. [Razz]

Sorry for being a smartass here, but if someone told me I had to keep the booth monitor up they would get some colorful "talkin' to". I need to be able to hear the projectors, and booths are plenty noisy enough as it is. This whole "keep the monitor on" thing is (in my opinion) just damned stupid. Really, what exactly does this practice offer??? There is too much dynamic range in soundtracks to possibly rely on it, and what good does it do to monitor one (or a few) channels? Are random audio failures in the middle of a movie that are caught by projectionists casually walking by that common??? I'm baffled.

Someone please give me a VALID reason to do this. (Please no "I was taught to do it this way", because that is never an acceptable response. I must be given an actual REASON. Without a reason, what the hell are you doing it for then? [Roll Eyes]

)

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-29-2003, 12:41 AM:

The reason I keep the monitors "cracked" a little is because of start-up. On some of the soundheads, the latch for the lateral guide could unlatch itself and flop open. Result? I catch it immediately......and I keep the monitor up a little so I don't forget to turn it up on the next start. At one time, the lateral guide flopped open into the show, and I heard the obnoxious buzz. I immediately waltzed over to the machine (about 4 feet away) and closed it.

Unlike the SH10** soundheads, as long as the door is closed, the guide will not flop open because of a design in those soundheads. The 5-Star does not have that provision, and could flop open at anytime you least suspect it. I have noticed that the catch in the 5-star sometimes does not completely seat. True, it happens once in a blue moon, but it can happen.

I don't have the monitor blairing out that loud. Just loud enough where it does not seriously contribute to the ambient noise. Those booths that don't have a carpeted floor and ceiling tiles, well, that's a different story. I compromise on them.....

Posted by Daniel Burns (Member # 1549) on 01-29-2003, 01:02 AM:

Good one Brad

I agree with Scott on this one. They just need to go ahead and fix the port glass. My theatres going to have to replace all the frames it looks like to stop our sound leakage.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-29-2003, 01:20 AM:

I actually LOOK at the lateral guide closure as the film starts up. Yes, I actually open the door myself and see that it is closed. And then I close it while watching the mechanism. Not all of ours will buzz with that thing open. I have never had it pop open except at startup. Yes, the 5-stars could be designed MUCH better and far more logically.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-29-2003, 02:20 AM:

Joe said:

quote:
"I actually LOOK at the lateral guide closure as the film starts up. Yes, I actually open the door myself and see that it is closed".

Bah!...I have more important things to do on start-up than to bend over and scratch my butt, open a door and say "Duh, it didn't flop open this time" and close the door again. [Big Grin]

Furthermore, I want to know if I have sound out there without even guessing or dicking around with a window to open it so I can stick my head out into the auditorium to find out...that's what I have a monitor for. [Smile]

Kind of reminds me of an operator that did that once in the old carbon-arc days. The booth was hotter than a popcorn fart, and the operator took all his cloths off except his boxer shorts. Well, he stuck his head out the booth window, leaned a little too far out, and fell out of his booth. He tried to get back in the booth, but the door was locked. He had to run through the theatre, down into the concession area and into the office to get a spare key.

The customers thought it was funny to see someone (namely the projectionist) running around in the theatre practically bare-assed naked. He definately got caught with his "pants down"....

But I agree, that 5-1/2 Star soundhead could use some improvements.... [Smile]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-29-2003, 02:58 AM:

Paul,

Sounds like a job for a microswitch mounted in the 5 Star hooked to a buzzer or light! Really, it wouldn't be very hard to implement. [Cool]

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-29-2003, 02:59 AM:

Hey, that's a great idea, Brad. [Smile]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-29-2003, 03:10 AM:

Hooked to a buzzer? You mean hooked to a Cine Gong! [Big Grin]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-29-2003, 03:12 AM:

Yes of course that's what I meant. [Cool]

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-29-2003, 03:19 AM:

Yes...real loud gongs, red lights flashing, sirens, and a Tesla coil wired to the projectionist's chair. [Big Grin]

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 01-29-2003, 10:24 AM:

I usually move about in the booth enough that I will pass most sound racks several times in a half hour. With the monitor on just high enough to notice it walking by, it is more likely that I'll catch the "no sound" problem before a customer complains to someone downstairs who then has to try and get a hold of me. (Can you believe some theaters are too cheap to buy radios?)

I once got called to a problem at the other end of the booth after starting a showing of FernGully. Twenty minutes later, I went back to find that the projector had stopped (for no apparent reason) in the middle of the second trailer. The customers just sat there in the dark for twenty minutes and didn't say a thing. [Confused]

I don't particularly judge audio "quality" from the monitor, I am just able to determine that it is not horribly distorted (drum damper not closed, etc.). Audio "quality" should be judged from the auditorium. The monitor is primarily there to determine that 1) there is signal going coming out of the processor and 2) there is signal coming out of the amps.

If there isn't a valid reason in all that, does "projectionist's peace of mind" count? [Smile]

I have all kinds of weird habits that were started because of a fluke in the booth.

Posted by Craig Hanham (Member # 1010) on 01-30-2003, 12:05 AM:

I'm in the 'use the monitor as an indicator' school. Enough sound coming out tells me if something silly is happening in the sound reproduction so I can check it out.
Since I am running change overs its a great way to tell if the sound hasn't (changed), and running green Bollywood prints at a single run its good to know that a bit of emulsion shed has fallen in the optical path.
As for running at full noise [Mad]

.
If your DM insists, start asking for hearing protection as is your right under Occupational safety when exposed to exessive volume. [Wink]

,or check your local government department concernig the criteria anyway.
Gives you a good comeback for being sensible if handled right i.e. if you go deaf no volume will help.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-30-2003, 12:16 AM:

I don't bend over and I don't scratch my ass (it never itches) when I check. Hell, I would rather do something than stand there like a drone waiting for that first image to appear while the leader is running through, so I open the door. My eyesite is good enough that bending over is not required. [Smile]

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-30-2003, 12:32 AM:

[Big Grin]