Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Going out to a film reminds me why I much prefer to stay in

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Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 01-28-2003, 02:52 PM:

here

Home Technology with Bill Lammers

Going out to a film reminds me why I much
prefer to stay in

01/16/03

My wife, Nancy, and I went to our first movie theater together six
months after we were married, a year and a half after our first
date. Somehow during our whole courtship, we managed to
avoid that dating tradition of dinner and a movie.

There were plenty of movies in our lives, but they all were shown
in my home. She saw such classics as "Citizen Kane" and
"Apocalypse Now" for the first time as played on my laser disc player, "Casablanca" on the
satellite dish and "Taxi Driver" on DVD. I saw the animated "Jungle Book" for the first time
from her daughters' videotape.

We have a life filled with
entertainment, but for the most part
it has been home entertainment.

On the first weekend of the New
Year, we managed to make it to
only our third theater movie in the
3? years that we have known each
other. It was a matinee of Martin
Scorsese's "Gangs of New York."
Big budget, big scenery, big
publicity - I figured we had to see it
on the big screen.

Big mistake.

If ever I needed a rationalization for
spending so much money on home
entertainment equipment and
programming, I got it that day at my
western suburban multiplex.

For the first half-hour of the movie,
the sound track dragged. Many of
the opening scenes of the movie
were without dialogue, so when the narrator sounded like Darth Vader on Quaaludes, I
figured it was just Daniel Day-Lewis immersing himself in the role, pulling another
chameleonlike job with his voice.

Imagine my surprise when I later found out that the narrator's voice belonged to Leonardo
DiCaprio, not Day-Lewis.

As the music came in and dragged, too, we realized that something was wrong and that no
one was volunteering to fix the problem. I went to the lobby and found a manager. She
made a call to the projection room. I missed about 10 minutes of the movie doing this.

Someone else in the theater also must have found a responsible person, because when I
returned, Nancy said that the sound had cleared up about a minute after I left the room.

All was forgiven - well, mostly it was forgiven - and we watched the rest of the film. I'm a
credit watcher - somewhat to Nancy's irritation - so we were the last two people remaining in
the theater as the movie was ending.

As the credits rolled, the one contemporary song from the movie's soundtrack, U2's "The
Hands That Built America," became just as garbled as the opening half-hour of sound had
been. Then, as the house lights came on and the credits became impossible to read, the
projectionist speeded up the film, making Bono sound like Pee-wee Herman with a hernia.

All the while this was going on, two theater employees hovered over us, waiting to swoop
down and clear our seats before the movie had fully ended. When I pointed out the bad
sound to them and told them about the earlier problem, the best I got was a shrug.

Bear in mind that we were being herded along at 3 p.m. The next showing was at 3:50 p.m.
We left with my deep-seated need to read every last credit unfulfilled.

Even with matinee prices, the cost of the movie, popcorn, coffee and Sour Patch Kids was
more than $20. That's about how much the DVD of "Gangs of New York" will cost in six or
nine or 12 months from now, when it is released in a special collector's edition with
documentaries, interviews and other extras.

This is why I spend so much time making my home entertainment system work well. This is
why I spend hours tweaking sound levels in the 6.1 surround-sound system. This is why I
scan Internet sites for release dates of DVDs. This is why I'm comparison shopping for my
eventual move into high-definition television. This is why I spend about $100 a month for the
full boat of service from DirecTV to be delivered to four rooms of my home.

Because Nancy works days and I work nights, we usually get only two nights and two days
together. The last thing I need to do is have one of those afternoons marred by a bad time
at a movie theater run by children and slackers with little idea of what quality service means.

When the sound doesn't synchronize with the lips on a DVD movie at home, I can fix that.
When the satellite goes out in the middle of "Oz" on HBO, I can sweep the snow from the
satellite dish. If the actors whisper or shout, I can adjust my sound system to fit my own
taste.

When Nancy has to avert her eyes from Day-Lewis and his meat cleaver - she's a nurse and
can't bear to watch on-screen mutilation - she can bury her head in a pillow on the couch
instead of peeking from behind her interlaced fingers.

Plus, I can make my own blankety-blank popcorn with real butter.

As we drove home from the theater and I ranted about the experience, Nancy said, "You
know, they ought to just release movies directly onto DVDs. I bet they would make just as
much money."

I wish that were true. I think the reality is that true movie lovers pay twice for a movie - once
in the theater and once to rent or buy the DVD or tape for home use. What I saw - and the
portion I heard - of "Gangs of New York" certainly will make me pre-order the DVD when the
release date is announced.

In the meantime, I'll be watching "The King of Comedy," another Scorsese masterpiece that
was released about 20 years ago. The DVD came out in December after a long wait by
Scorsese fans and the Jerry Lewis faithful.

The Lammers family premiere is scheduled for 7:10 p.m. Limited seating available. All the
popcorn we can eat. And an intermission whenever we want one.

Lammers is a Plain Dealer assistant news editor.

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

blammers@plaind.com, 216-999-4162

© 2003 The Plain Dealer.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-28-2003, 03:01 PM:

This would be a prime example of "Film Done Wrong" and poor showmanship, except something in the story is "fishy" [Confused]

--- few theatres have variable speed drives on their projectors that would allow having noticeably slow speed at one point, and then a significant speed up in the credits. What else could cause the problems described? Something here just doesn't add up. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-28-2003, 04:29 PM:

Yes, perhaps the author needs to get his facts straight. Why would the projectionist "speed up" the film at 3:00 if the next one doesn't start until 3:50? I believe the author is embellishing some of the facts.

Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 01-28-2003, 04:34 PM:

Not to mention that if the presentation is that bad, what are the chances that the projectionist is standing at the projector to speed up the show anyway? I don't doubt he had a bad cinema-going experience, but some of what he is saying makes little sense.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 01-28-2003, 04:38 PM:

quote:
When the sound doesn't synchronize with the lips on a DVD movie at home, I can fix that.

How? details, please.

quote:
When the satellite goes out in the middle of "Oz" on HBO, I can sweep the snow from the
satellite dish.

Yes, but this takes time (in my case, even FINDING the shovel would have taken the rest of the program!) The snowstorm might even be strong enough to knock off the dish!

I have to admit the temptation is getting greater and greater based on bad presentations I've seen, but I still can't shake that get out of the house mentality and experience the totality of the experience.

Posted by Andrew Duggan (Member # 1302) on 01-28-2003, 04:39 PM:

What, you guys don't have those magical "Fast Forward" and "Rewind" puttons on your automation panels? Get with the times, maaan! [Big Grin]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-28-2003, 05:17 PM:

Only on one machine. It has frame by frame, pause, multi-speed forward and reverse, and resume from last position before system crash. Not too mention it's all on an LCD touch screen. [Smile]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-28-2003, 05:31 PM:

...and how would the soundtrack "drag" for 30 minutes at the beginning of the film? I think this guy belongs with those writers who claim every theatre has sticky floors.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-28-2003, 06:08 PM:

Actually now that I think of it... I have actually had these sound problems with a DTS-6AD. This happened to me during the opening of SWEPII. It turned out to be a faulty CPU board (D740).

Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 01-28-2003, 06:13 PM:

What else do you expect from a "Film Snob"? His M.O. is "All multiplexes, bad; all single-screen palaces, good".

Give me the AMC Hamilton 24 any day.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 01-28-2003, 07:41 PM:

I saw "Gangs of New York" at the Loew's Lincoln Square in NYC. That theatre usually does film right. I didn't think the sound was up to par, but I couldn't tell whether it was the mix, the print or the presentation. Some of the trailers shown before the film sounded fine. In fact, at one point in the film, I sat there wondering whether the film was actually being shown in Dolby-SR (analog), rather than digital (which I assume was SDDS.) The U2 song on the closing credits was definitely distorted.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-28-2003, 08:22 PM:

The U2 song at the end seems to be recorded louder than the rest of the movie.

Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 01-28-2003, 08:34 PM:

I remember experiencing the "dragging" sound effect and strange dropouts on a DTS showing of "Dark City" several years ago at a theater in Pennsylvania. As the unit lost sync, the sound would change pitch and sometimes drop out entirely.

I agree with you, Charles. The AMC Hamilton does a good job. If they could only keep out the drunken, loud-mouthed jerks who insist on ruining some shows, the experience would be better. I have friends who refuse to go there because of the annoying audiences. I've actually had people thrown out of showings there.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 01-28-2003, 09:49 PM:

The 'speeding up' of the feature at the end; could a digital server be made to do this? I don't think our Qualcomm/Techinicolor server could, but maybe someone else's?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-28-2003, 09:53 PM:

We need to find out what theater this was at and what their booth equipment was. From the (exaggerated) description, I figure it was either analog sound from a Simplex or digital sound from a dts player. There is nothing else I can think of that could produce what he described.

Simplex - later guide roller that won't stay closed. The lights down cue at the beginning of the feature could've popped it loose (seen it happen) and then 30 minutes into the film the projectionist closed it...only to pop open again at the lights up cue.

Dts - seen this happen on faulty timecode boards, where the sound speeds up and slows down quite badly.

I think it's safe to say that between these two, the Simplex answer makes the most sense. Even the sound synchronization is answered by the Simplex, as there is one recent Strong model (can't remember which one) that no matter how you size the lower loop will not be in exact sync.

This only leaves the "fast credits" issue left. I'll try and take a look, but I'll bet the ending credit roll is just fast.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 01-28-2003, 10:10 PM:

quote:
This is why I spend so much time making my home entertainment system work well. This is why I spend hours tweaking sound levels in the 6.1 surround-sound system.

I'll bet that this [bs]

-head makes sure that there is dialogue audible in all the speakers. Even on Woody Allen films. [Big Grin]

-Aaron

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-28-2003, 10:20 PM:

Years ago at the infamous "eatons Centre" rearscreen megashitplex the ernaman 9's were 50Hz machines ruinning on the infamous transdominar 3 phase inverters
Often when we had 4 in the morning show for the drunks or people looking for a place to sleepthe last part went throuh at about 48fps [Frown]

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 01-28-2003, 11:42 PM:

Parts of that do sound exaggerated, but sad to say, a few times I've paid to go to a movie during the past year I've been out of the theatre business, I've often wished I was at home instead. I have a 5.1 sound system at home (and yes, if I'm playing a movie with a mono soundtrack, there's only sound from the center channel) so problems with sound at the theatre is unacceptable. While analog CAN sound good, if you're charging $8.75 per ticket, the digital soundtrack should be playing if there is one, and if you've only got analog, it damn well better be as perfect as possible! I attempted to see Minority Report at a UA theatre and the show started in analog mono. (They were at least equipped for analog stereo, but nobody bothered to check the sound format when starting the show.) I thought they'd at least notice by the time the trailers were over, but 5 minutes into the movie when I realized they weren't going to fix it anytime soon, I walked out and into another movie that was starting (Men in Black). I waited to see Minority Report on DVD.
While the picture should ALWAYS beat video, even that's not always the case- I sat through Ice Age misframed, with black space on the top and part of the bottom cut off. I already had to have someone adjust the framing during the trailers; I guess they threaded it so far out of frame the framing knob would not let them get it properly centered. I bought the DVD and haven't watched it yet, but will probably enjoy it more even on my pathetic 4x3 screen.
Throwing people out (or making them want to leave) during the end credits is totally uncalled for- I can see the need to turn the lights up enough to see for the lawsuit-happy folk, but turning them up to full level and/or turning on the janitor lights, and then having staff noisily clean up for the next show (I'm not going to be there for the next show, so why should I care if it's clean then?) is inexcusable. Also, if you're going to have the lights come up, don't put visible cue tape on the film! Nothing like having a slow fade-out with some flashes of black thrown in! Might has well have the shadow of someone's hand visible while they manually turn the lights up! Someone on another forum bragged that they actually stopped the show during the credits, unthreaded the projector and manually wound the rest of the film through!
I do have to fault the writer for spending $100 per month on DirecTV though- constant logos on most of the channels there is unacceptable, and HBO shows movies in pan and scan and sometimes cuts into the end credits with show promos.
Still, it IS possible to have a presentation at home that can come come close to a good theatrical presentation, and certainly exceed a bad one. This is always what I kept in mind when working in the projection booth- the theatre isn't the only way for people to see movies, so you'd better give them a good reason to keep coming. Also keep in mind that some people might only go to the theatre every few months or so, so even ONE bad experience is going to make a big impression (the show described could have happened at a theatre I worked at, but he could have gone on my day off when some ass was running things instead.) If you're at the theatre practically every day, you should know how things are supposed to be and keep it that way. (If a technical problem occurs that you have no control over, let the customers know you're sorry, and see that it doesn't happen again when they come back!) If all booth operators thought that way, articles like that would not be written.
My living room probably has a dirtier floor than some theatres do though [Razz]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-29-2003, 12:04 AM:

Gangs of New Yorks' credits do not roll. They flash on and off. But the article said that the U2 song sounded sped up. I wanna know what was goin' on!

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 01-29-2003, 04:13 AM:

Let's face it. This guy is desperate to justify spending half his yearly wage on his home theatre equipment and no doubt an equally horrific amount on the innane purchase of hundreds of DVD titles. OF COURSE his movie going experience was going to be lousy! I'll bet you pounds to peanuts if he had gone to the best cinema presentation in town it would STILL have been a lousy experience for him. Big screen and big sound that the most elaborate home theatre system can't even approach... naah, he doesn't need that. Just a video projector (with those annoying black bars top and bottom on the scope stuff), 5.1 channels to fiddle with to his heart's content, AND his home made popcorn, and this guy's in paradise. Forget him, you haven't got a hope with this kind of home-theatre-wacko.

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 01-29-2003, 07:44 AM:

Perhaps someone could e-mail this 'tool' , and ask him to explain this seemingly tall tale to us.

Posted by Andrew Duggan (Member # 1302) on 01-29-2003, 10:28 AM:

Joe is definitely right about the U2 song being recorded a lot louder than the rest of the film. I don't know if Scorsese sits in on all of the sound mixing or what, but I've noticed a lot of very mismatched volume levels in almost all of his films. In Goodfellas, I remember some of Ray Liottas voice overs being *absurdly* loud compared to the rest of the dialogue.

But when I watched it last night, loud as it may have been, the song didn't sound distorted to me. Shrug.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 01-29-2003, 11:18 AM:

I wonder if the end credits could have been chopped up, either as the result of an "accident" or by an unethical projectionist to make the film end sooner. That, to someone not familiar with film, could appear as "speeded up credits", and may also explain the sound problems.

/Mitchell

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 01-29-2003, 12:50 PM:

quote:
so when the narrator sounded like Darth Vader on Quaaludes,

Hmmm. I've had this problem with Dolby Digital before. Sometimes the error rate will be fluttering between 7-8-F and it will kick back from SR to SRD, causing the distorted digital info to be played back. We had CP-65's and penthouse readers.

This happened on a used print of Titanic we received. (Theater opened in May 98) One of the reels had this problem with the SRD track and Kate Winslet sounded like she was using one of those voice boxes for your throat!! [Eek!]

The sound would skip at this part too, which may explain why the author said the end was "sped up" (that, or they had a tail wrap and cut out footage.)

=TMP=

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 01-29-2003, 10:42 PM:

That perticular machine could have a sound drum going out. THat can cause a drag in the sound. Scratches in the picture too. It also can cause the sound to go out of synce on a simplex because the film will loop out causing about a two to three frame sync change.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 01-30-2003, 11:03 AM:

While I understand the dissection of this guy's critique, I think the real problem is being over looked, and I have heard these same complaints before.
I myself have complained when the teenage girls come in to clean up and and are yelling (chit chat) across the theater to each other while I am watching the credits. In fact I shushed one and got a terrible dirty look for doing so. I wrote in and complained.
The bottom line I hear is people not wanting to put up with people. Added to that the management doesn't seem to really care much about the customers enjoyment of the film going experience. A lot of the complaints I've heard are about people bringing kids or worse babies who make noise. Others are cell phones, people talking, kicking seats, farting and a host of obnoxious things that tells me that either manners are not being taught by parents or manners are being ignored by a lot of people.
If there is something technically wrong with the presentation, that can and should be fixed. But the problem of "the obnoxious public" is something that is very hard to fix. However unless the public is happy with being cooped up with other members of their community for a couple of hours, they will avoid doing so, technical problems aside. Of course this means that there will be no customers and then there will be no theaters and home entertainment centers will be the exhibition medium of choice/necessity in the future. The real question is....
What to do about rude people??????

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 01-30-2003, 11:23 AM:

Greg has it right. There are *many* things that can have a negative impact on the moviegoing experience. Technical problems are just one area. To me, the worst thing is rude patrons. Have you ever had this happen? You get your seats, and 5 mins. later someone sits behind you and puts their feet up on the back of the seat right next to you. Now in your peripheral vision you have a pair of dirty shoes moving around, maybe getting ready to accidentally kick you in the head.

But when everything is right and "magic" happens, there's nothing like experiencing a good film, with a crowd, in a real theatre. "Magic" still happens sometimes.

Posted by Andrew Duggan (Member # 1302) on 01-30-2003, 12:11 PM:

quote:
What to do about rude people??????

I feel like if I started to blurt out some of the things I feel like doing to rude people during movies, while in a public forum like this, I'd probably find myself being put on some kind of "potential threat" list at FBI Headquarters [Wink]

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 02-14-2003, 08:49 AM:

I was reading the movie news groups the other day.

There is someone on there saying that they saw GONY projected at 25fps instead of 24fps.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 02-14-2003, 09:14 AM:

The difference between 24fps and 25fps would make the sound less than 1/8 tone higher. That is a nunance which most people couldn`t hear even in direct comparison.
A digital system already on the verge of nervous breakdown due to bad reader alignment or a scratched soundtrack could have additional problems with 25fps.
But my guess is that what this guy experienced was that the digital sound did not come on at all and he heard the first part of the film in analogue. The analogue components had probably not been aligned in years, causing the bad dialogue because of the level difference between Lt and Rt.
When he complained, somebody pushed the digital button and the problem went away.
As to the speeding up of the credits, we do not know what he experienced. The way he exaggerates everything makes it impossible to get a clear idea of the problem. Maybe he just thought it was sped up. Somebody who says he spent hours tweaking his 6.1 system does not seem to have any judgement of audio quality. Otherwise, you need just a couple of minutes to set up a home system properly. Or maybe 1/2h, when you equalise it too.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-14-2003, 09:50 AM:

The details in the article sound totally made up to me but the essence of the story rings true in some ways:

1. A lot of movie theatres aren't showing films properly.
2. Customers feel they can do a better job at home.

I don't know too many people who really think that DVD offers a better picture than 35mm film. They know that a lot of resolution gets lost and they appreciate the size of a real movie theatre screen versus what they have at home.

However, these people have a genuine complaint. Namely, that a lot of movie theatres today aren't living up to the potential of 35mm format.

(Comp time - about 5 mins)

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-14-2003, 11:53 AM:

Let's consolidate this discussion on the more recent thread here.