This is topic when customers compare home with cinema in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Carl King (Member # 398) on 01-29-2003, 10:51 AM:
 
In a recent post an infrequent filmgoer had much to commplain about a mulitplex matinee. He appeared quite enamoured of his home system. I'm glad he likes it but he should do some research before he compares.

Recently a patron came to my booth on a tour. He mentioned that he had watched a recent film and that there had been no surround sound. When he mentioned this to me we were standing next to the projector/sound system on which he had see his film and indeed the same film was playing. With this man observing I checked the the monitor and sound was coming from all appropriate places and told him that our equipment was fine and queried him as to why he thought there was no surround. He stated that he sat through the entire movie and heard no sound from any of the side speakers. I can't remember the name of the picture but it was a "talky" picture with no need for lots of ambient sound. I told him this and he said that he thought that the sound was supposed to come from all speakers at the same time just like his home system.

I then told him that I knew what his problem was. His home system was set up wrong. At least this gentleman had the good sense to ask a question and not just complain. Wouldn'ty it be nice if more people asked to be informed instead of just comnplaining?
 

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Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 01-29-2003, 11:58 AM:
 
I used to get these idiots all the time , especially during Woody Allen films (mono, even in digital). When told that this was the way the film was mixed I get the usual 'but i get talking in all my speakers on my home theatre' I then simply shrug my shoulders and walk away.

-Aaron
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 01-29-2003, 12:26 PM:
 
We had someone come up to our box office and ask "Do you have digital sound?" The box office person of course said "Yes" without thinking that some MOVIES are playing in digital sound, and some aren't.

 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 01-29-2003, 12:41 PM:
 
I love it when people come and ask if we have "THX Digital Sound". When we say, "No, but we have DTS Digital Sound" they get this perplexed look.

Then sometimes you overhear the morons who count the surround speakers on the wall and determine that it's "x.1 Surround" to their friends.

Too many people believe what they hear in the stores.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 01-29-2003, 12:43 PM:
 
It is wrong to do this comparison.
Although we have to admit that some technicians (not anyone in here I believe) are really careless and they just want to finish the installation and get the money instead of caring for EXCELLENT presentation. Most people have DOLBY PROLOGIC decoders at their home, and that does derive sound to all the speakers if the film is stereo on DVD or even in VIDEO or even in normal TV channels. Someone though that has a digital decoder at home and has a film playing in Dolby Digital or even better DTS (that's for Karen) will definately hear the difference. I too have to admit that in some theaters which play the film in digital, the sound is not as clear and as "full" in all frequencies like some people's home cinemas I know. Of course I do admit that is not the projectionist fault but mainly the technician's. If they don't do a good job then the sound will not be as crispy and as rich in depth while Digital Decoders in home cinema's can easily be configured since they have preset DSP's.
BUT ... Even worse, the problem with bad sound quality in a theater also derives from the "scroogeness" of theater owners wanting to install cheap equipment. At a theater here we have JBL center speakers, KSC surrounds and the Power Amplifiers cannot handle the whole power load since they clip all the time even when playing the sound in 5. Most people should ask though to be more educated and not making foolish and wrong comparisons and judging the theater presentation.
Sorry. Too long writing this time
See ya
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-29-2003, 01:25 PM:
 
Dolby Pro-Logic uses the exact same matrix to decode surround as Dolby A and Dolby SR surround do in the Dolby processor that's in your projection booth. Pro-Logic does not have the voice or any other sound in all speakers simultaneously unless it was mixed that way.

Dolby Pro-Logic 2 is quite impressive, however.
 

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Posted by Don Bruechert (Member # 1538) on 01-29-2003, 01:37 PM:
 
I have done my share of sound work over the years, with working in a stage-theatre, for a rock band, selling home audio, car audio and the like that I have developed my own "tastes". I think the whole sound issue is a really opinionated topic. I have mixed for bands where the guys come up and say "my friends say they can't hear me playing", and there's always someone in every crowd that wants to tell you how to do your job. Fact is, even the guys who mix movies have an opinion of how things should sound and it may differ from yours or mine.

I prefer listening to movies at home in my own "home theatre" becuase I can tweak things to be the way *I* want them to be. I will gout of my way to look for DTS logos on DVD's when I am tossed up between two movies because the sound is so much better. However I much prefer to watch the movies on the big screen at the theater, and will generally watch a movie and if I like it I will add it to my collection at home.

I have been trying to improve our presentation from a quality picture standpoint by learning as much as I can and fixing problems with how we do things as I find them (and if I can), but since I started at the theater I have been "tweaking" the sound systems so that they sound better, much to the annoyance of the guy who was supposed to be training me who said "These systems are all calibrated by factory technicians - don't mess with the amps". My response of course was that it might "sound" great to an oscilloscope, but to an ear it might sound like crap. I have all the "baseline" settings marked so I can easily go back there, but from time to time there is a movie where the music and effects are great but you just can't hear the dialog. You can't just grab the master and turn up the juice a notch because then you will get complaints it is too loud, but just a little tweak to the gain of the center channel amp can leave the patrons with a good listening experience. Same thing goes for the surround channels, etc.... Die Another day was a good example (in our place) of a movie that had surround effects that would rip your head off combined with quiet dialog.... taking just a touch off the gain of the surround amp got rid of the customer complaints of it being too loud without turning the whole thing down so they couldn't hear the rest.

In my humble opinion, if you have a person on hand that knows how the audio systems work, and cares enough to twiddle with them a bit it makes for a happier audience. It is a good feeling to have people come up to you on the street and say "That movie sounded really awesome." In our place we have 6 screens. 2 DTS, 1 SDDS, 1 Stereo (if that) and 2 Ultra Stereo. Some of them will also handle 1 display format better than others. The owner assigns the films to the houses based mostly on the seating capacity he thinks will be needed and the expected age of the patrons, but he lives in a bigger town and I feel (based on going to movies for 30 some years) that I have a pretty good feel for what is going to go over in our town, and I have been known to move them around taking the screen format and sound quality (as well as age of patrons for the tower) into consideration. For just this coming week he had "Final Destination" in the plain stereo house and "Just Married" in the Ultra Stereo house - there is a 10 seat difference and a couple flights of stairs. I switched them because I felt the customers would have a much better experience in Final Destination with a better sound system. Just Married is more of a dialog movie with few special effects..... I think little things like this can make a big difference in customer enjoyment.

Sorry for the long post!
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-29-2003, 02:13 PM:
 
You probably had to turn the center channel up because you had tweaked the other channels. Setting up and aligning a sound system is far more complex than turning individual channels up and down. You should not do that! If dialogues are hard to understand on a system, it might also be caused by bad equalisation.
You said that in your experience different musicians like different mixes and so do movie sound mixers. True, but their individual ideas will only be reflected if the sound system is well calibrated to the standards they had in the studio. You should not remix movies in your theater!
 

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Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 01-29-2003, 02:16 PM:
 
I recieve at least a complaint every month about the 'surrounds not working.' It gets annoying having to explain it over and over again.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-29-2003, 02:27 PM:
 
I also get a bit of a kick from the home stereo enthusiasts who will spend hours making sure that the levels are within 0.00000001% of 1db to reference...and yet they don't even have an EQ anywhere on their system. Pretty funny how they have brainwashed themselves to believe that they are "tuning" the system and how it suddenly sounds SO much better.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-29-2003, 02:43 PM:
 
So what do others think about "tweaking" sound systems to "improve" movie sound? Exhibitors certainly have a responsibility to the director, DP, and sound mixer to reproduce picture and sound as closely as possible to how they were reproduced in the studio screening room, at least as far as available equipment allows. On the other hand, they also have a responsibility to their customers to make movies sound "good"; otherwise, their customers will take their business elsewhere.

Personally, I wouldn't touch EQ or individual channel levels on a system which is known to be "properly" calibrated and which "normally" sounds good. If one particular film sounds bad on a system which sounds fine with most films, then one can assume that the problem is with the mix and not the reproduction system. On the other hand, I do adjust the main fader setting to a "comfortable" level (not necessarily 7.0) and I don't run trailers in digital. Having said all that, if the sound system is old and hasn't been serviced in a long time and doesn't sound good anyway (usually in older mono houses), I'll tweak what I can to make the dialogue intelligible and the music sound...umm...musical. In other words, I'll only adjust something if it can't possibly be made to sound any worse than it already does.
 

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Posted by William Leland III (Member # 1400) on 01-29-2003, 05:07 PM:
 
I can see how customers can make comparisons to Theatre sound vs. Home Cinema sound. I have heard some unbelievable Home Cinema sound systems. I was blown away by some of my friends home stereo's. I was like this sounds better than our theatre equipment. True they do have an EQ, so that helps. To be honest if the Home Cinema sounds is good, I'd rather be at home than a theatre.

I have a question. What are the real differences between DTS,SDDS and Dolby Digital??

What I mean is the sound, not channels or what is printed on film or disc. That I know. It is just more more channels, is that the difference.
 

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Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 01-29-2003, 05:15 PM:
 
I think the main thrust of this thread is when Mr/Mrs Moviegoer comes out of their movie and says the surrounds aren't working.

We dutifully go and listen to the monitor and report to the floor that they are working fine.

Once movie is over, Mr/Mrs Moviegoer come out and want rainchecks because of this.

I have never asked, why they think they are not working, but may do that in the future.

I, too, think they compare to their home setup which may be done incorrectly.
 

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Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 01-29-2003, 06:25 PM:
 
There are many points to be covered here...

When people ask me about sound, I make the simplist attempt that I can to explain what THX, DTS, SDS and SRD are. I also try, in laymans terms, to explain how both the sound system components as well as the auditorium architecture all come together in a package to create quality sound. Generally speaking, many people have thanked me because my laymans explaiation clearifies many points.

But for a twist...

For a while, I was doing some cinema reviews in Tucson. In one major theater, the Century Park Place 20, I tend to ask the floor staff if they could tell me what digital system (DTS, SDDS or SRD)is playing in the particular auditorium that I am attending, since it is not advertised. Of all the times that I have been to this theater, their floor staff never fails to be braindead and is clueless to my question! On one occasion, a floor person told me that the digital sound system is THX. I told him that I knew that all auditoriums are THX certified, but what I wanted to know was what digital format is being used. This clueless floor staff tried to b.s. me, and I simply ended up walking away. What is even funnier about this theater is that every time I have been there, the presentation has been flawed. I usually approach an assistant manager and ask to speak to the "projectionist" so that the problem(s) could be rectified. Believe it or not, the assistant managers are usually "unable" to contact the "projectionist" by radio...and they simply and politely offer me a free readmit. And finally, I have asked floor staff the name of thier G.M. or the ranking manager on the premisis. Generally speaking, the floor staff does not even know the name of the G.M.! how sad!

Another point.

Tucson is the proud home of The Tucson Pops Orchastra, founded by Georges Deemester and been around since the mid 1950's and provides free concert seasons twice a year (fall and spring). These are open air concerts in the park and is attended by thousands. The City of Tucson, Tucson Parks and Recreation, other sponsers and public donations all help to prepatuate these concerts...enough bragging . Anyhow, The City of Tucson Parks and Recreation provide the soundsystems and stage hands, and they do a pretty decent job. When the sound system if properly adjusted, there is enough delay in the system so that you cannot tell that the sound is comming from the speakers...rather they just help to boost the sound. There are speakers stage right and left, as well as down in the audience. Anyhow, the morle of the story, the purpose of surround is to recreate the "natural setting and not to beable to pinpoint sound to a specific speaker.

Finally, I have seen people spend a small fortune on stereo equipment, but the design, architecture, and acoustics of their listening area were just terrible, resulting in their high priced system sounding no better than a $100.00 el cheapo unit!
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-29-2003, 06:39 PM:
 
From my own experiences I know two things are certain:

1. Few people know what they need in order to set up a home theater system properly and get the appropriate kind of sound playback.

2. The number of commercial theaters that have well tuned sound systems and a knowledgeable staff is also a rare thing.

It is pretty funny when someone who just bought a DVD setup last week thinks he's now an expert on movie theater sound --just like the guys who expect surrounds to be on during a mono Woody Allen movie. More consumer education needs to happen on the home theater front.

It is also pretty bad if you walk up to a theater ticket counter and ask if a movie is playing in a certain sound format, or if it is in the THX house and be told by the box person, "it doesn't matter." If I get a brush-off like that, I probably won't visit that theater again.

I may not have all the available EQ settings in my home system that a well equipped commercial system may boast. But I can set the volume level and other adjustments how I like. My biggest complaint with a lot of commercial theaters is the volume being turned down too low. Some fellow with a stick in his ass complains and what everyone else gets is a presentation featuring the sound impact of a small Philco TV set. After awhile many managers will just keep the sound turned down low.

At least I'm within driving distance of a couple good theaters that at least keep the sound up at a good dramatic level.

In the end, my biggest complaint is against certain stupid, ignorant customers who, in spite of bad past experiences, will continue to visit the same flea-bag dump of a theater over and over again. They don't vote with their dollars responsibly. So we see great quality theaters get closed down and very poor quality multiplexes continue well on into the future.

With the proliferation of DVD and home theater to the masses, one would have thought the audiences would have become much more saavy and sophisticated. One would have thought customers would finally become discrimating against low grade theaters and naturally gravitate to the theaters doing film right.

I still see morons just driving to what ever multiplex is closest. I guess they think all movie theaters are the same and have the same equipment.
 

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Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 01-29-2003, 06:55 PM:
 

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"it doesn't matter."

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I have a question. What are the real differences between DTS,SDDS and Dolby Digital??

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Oddly, a lot of people complain about the demise of 70mm but not about the loss of the 5 screen channel configuration even though it is MUCH better.

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I'd complain about the loss of 3 screen channels first!
Big screens and hard center dialouge sucks!

I know the problem is 'jumping dialouge' but it'd be nice if the extra money was spent to mix the digital track with directional dialouge. Yeah, I know, fat chance.
 

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Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 01-29-2003, 07:23 PM:
 
There are two main differences between DTS and the other two formats: (1) DTS sound is on CD-ROM discs instead of on the film and (2) DTS has the lowest compression rate of all three.

Demetris - thanks! You're *the* man! ;-)

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
 

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Posted by William Leland III (Member # 1400) on 01-29-2003, 08:14 PM:
 
Thanks for the quick answers.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-29-2003, 11:18 PM:
 

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DTS has the lowest compression rate of all three.

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'surrounds not working.'

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dts uses a coding technique which codes the differences between samples.

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Actually, that is the description of Delta Modulation coding, which was used in the Cinema Digital Sound process. Linear PCM data requires 16 bits per sample (or more depending recording/encoding process). Each sample is referenced against a zero db level. Delta Modulation can be reduced to 1-bit per sample (but require more samples). Each sample is referenced to the intensity of the previous sample.

Theatrical DTS uses a simple waveform codec, whose basis still lies in compressing/decompressing Linear PCM. DTS theatrical's APT-X100 algoritm has a 4:1 compression ratio and the highest data level per channel of all the three digital formats.

SDDS has approximately a 5:1 compression ratio. The Professional ATRAC coder is an "adaptive transform" coder. I suppose that is different from Dolby Digital's "cosine transform" process. Both can take audio samples, rotate them 90 degrees out of phase and make a higher level of audio compression possible. But that can also result in artifacts that have to be psychoacoustically masked.

I don't know about DTS Theatrical being able to do 2 channel only stuff --perhaps other than a sound mixer only using the L and R stage channels. We've seen Woody Allen use all three digital formats and only code into the C channel.

The DTS Coherent Acoustics home theater codec can encode two channel material at either 377kb/s or 508kb/s. The rack mount encoder DTS sells can encode material in that 2.0/2.1 mode. It also does 5.0/5.1 at 754kb/s and 1509kb/s for DVD and 1234kb/s 44.1kHz for music CD.

Does anyone know if any third party sound products, such as plug-ins for Pro Tools, can do DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete encoding? I'm under the impression any such work must be handled directly by DTS.

While I'm on the subject of DTS --I can't believe it has already been 10 years since the format debuted!
 

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Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 01-30-2003, 07:19 PM:
 
Yes, Bobby, we are celebrating our 10-year anniversary this year! It will be 10 years for me at DTS this April. How time flies!

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-30-2003, 07:56 PM:
 
Karen, Congradulations! Shouldn't that have been How Time Code Flys??????
Mark @ CLACO
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-30-2003, 09:27 PM:
 

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Actually, that is the description of Delta Modulation coding, which was used in the Cinema Digital Sound process.

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Mark J Marshall wrote on page 1:We had someone come up to our box office and ask "Do you have digital sound?" The box office person of course said "Yes" without thinking that some MOVIES are playing in digital sound, and some aren't.

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Asking questions like that to box office staff is a dangerous business.

I bet you could run a cinema with all mono sound and the box office would still say that the sound was 'Digital'.

One the phone once I was told (after listening in the background to about 3 staff members discussing what to tell me) "It's um.. erm.. CD quality sound". I didn't bother to go so I never found out what sound they were using.

EDIT: I often thought it would be a good idea to make some thing up and see if they say yes. Like ask them if they have 'Super 250% digital 3-D sound' or something. LOL
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-07-2003, 04:51 PM:
 
Well I have also taken complaints about the surrounds not working. I remember when I first started out here I met one of the electricians who performed odd jobs around the theatre. He is a DJ and he also has some "experience" installing home theatre systems. Note "experience" does not necessarily equate to "skill", "knowledge" or "training." Anyway, this guy decided to lecture me about how every movie is supposedly different and, thus, requires a different EQ and volume setting.

Get this: He then told me about the time that he got so pissed off at the surrounds not being loud enough in one of these theatre. He explained to me about how he went into the booth and turned the amps up all by himself! He said that we needed to get our act together because he has had to get up out of the audience and do this every time.

Inside, I was freaking out but somehow I managed to maintain an outward sense of calm as he was talking.

I was new with the company and I had already made a lot of notes for things that needed to get sorted out. One of the things I jotted down after hearing that story was "put locks on booth doors." The other thing was "recalibrate sound systems" because people had obviously been monkeying around with the levels.

That electrician was not called for work that involved the booths and, eventually, he was completely replaced.

I also had a news reporter come up to me and inquire as to why we didn't get the letterboxed versions of every movie. He was doing a story on the rising popularity of DVD and home theatre and this was an area where he thought home viewers were getting more... I know, it's scary.

As for that alarming post that appears on page one of this thread...

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I have been trying to improve our presentation from a quality picture standpoint by learning as much as I can and fixing problems with how we do things as I find them (and if I can), but since I started at the theater I have been "tweaking" the sound systems so that they sound better, much to the annoyance of the guy who was supposed to be training me who said "These systems are all calibrated by factory technicians - don't mess with the amps".

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My response of course was that it might "sound" great to an oscilloscope, but to an ear it might sound like crap. I have all the "baseline" settings marked so I can easily go back there, but from time to time there is a movie where the music and effects are great but you just can't hear the dialog.

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You can't just grab the master and turn up the juice a notch because then you will get complaints it is too loud, but just a little tweak to the gain of the center channel amp can leave the patrons with a good listening experience.

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Same thing goes for the surround channels, etc.... Die Another day was a good example (in our place) of a movie that had surround effects that would rip your head off combined with quiet dialog.... taking just a touch off the gain of the surround amp got rid of the customer complaints of it being too loud without turning the whole thing down so they couldn't hear the rest.

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In my humble opinion...

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...if you have a person on hand that knows how the audio systems work, and cares enough to twiddle with them a bit it makes for a happier audience.

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Are we allowed to say "bullshit" in this forum?

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I often thought it would be a good idea to make some thing up and see if they say yes. Like ask them if they have 'Super 250% digital 3-D sound' or something. LOL

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Seeing that when the Northpark I and II were operating, Brad and Co. re-equalized and recalibrated the houses for EVERY new film that played there, I wouldn't discount everything that you quoted. The difference is the skill and experience of the technician doing the work.

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But Brad is not in training and, as far as I know, he does not buy into the "golden ears" approach.

And just because someone we know and respect EQ's a particular system on a near-weekly basis does not make the practice "normal."

Brad -- Was that theatre a special case? Or do you EQ all screens for all new movies?

Aaron -- you've helped me out in the past with good advice and so I trust you and respect you and I take your point. But now I am curious as to how far you would go in terms of being in agreement/disagreement with the quoted post. At this point, it sounds like maybe you think there's something to that argument.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-07-2003, 09:06 PM:
 
That was a very special case theater Manny. Nowhere else does anyone do this, nor do I recommend it. We always started with a baseline standard EQing that I derived after spending a few nights setting up the multiplexer all over the auditorium and making "average" adjustments based upon all of my notes on paper. From then we used outboard EQs for minor tweeks and adjustments in frequency response as well as occasional level modifications. What most people misunderstand here is that the room was not tuned solely by ear and any modifications that were done by ear was minor. Because the controls were outside of the CP200, we could always start with a perfectly clean slate by setting the controls on the outboard EQs to "zero", at which point the internal room cailbration was still preserved in the CP200. It worked very well for us and people would drive from as far as neighboring states every week to screen movies there because of the extreme attention to sound and picture presentation.

Bear in mind that was a 2 screen with a professional and qualified staff. Can you imagine even attempting to do something as small as a 6 plex with prints moving around all the time?
 

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Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 02-08-2003, 01:44 AM:
 

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But now I am curious as to how far you would go in terms of being in agreement/disagreement with the quoted post. At this point, it sounds like maybe you think there's something to that argument.

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Perhaps I am either misreading the quoted items or taking them out of context. Of course a trainee shouldn't be even thinking of messing with the audio systems. I have had to recalibrate a number of systems because someone (I have seen the finger-pointing toward everyone from the theatre manager to the janitorial staff) decided that either they wanted to play their CD's really loud while cleaning (and crank all the amp levels to max), or they thought something didn't sound up to their expectations and decided to perform some of their own 'tweeks'.

-Aaron
 

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Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 02-09-2003, 07:22 AM:
 
I am with you Manny, 100%. Our service division has a customer down the coast South of Sydney who pays us a lot of money to send a skilled technician all the way down there to tune his cinema. No sooner has the tech left the building than the customer is in there tweaking the amp levels. His first move (always) is to turn up the surrounds by about 6-8dB. A few days later he decides he can't hear the dialogue (because the surrounds are drowning it out) so he winds up the centre channel amp. Of course then he can't hear any left and right so we get a call to go back down there and the whole process starts over. Despite the veritable gold mine for our service division, our field tech just hates going back. He is very good at his craft and is well respected in the industry and spends a lot of time getting the sound absolutely perfect, only to have his work screwed up by the mere twisting of a dial! Sometimes, no matter what you say or do, you just cannot win.

And on the subject of frequent re-eqing, many years ago I attended an SMPTE meeting at the Crystal Palace, which at that time was the premium film mixing facility in Sydney. Some of the senior mixing engineers were on hand to play us some footage of Mad Max 3 (which was at that time a new movie that had been mixed there) and they mentioned that their technical people re-eq'ed the theatre EVERY morning. Of course this statement was greeted by a chorus of gasps from the audience of seasoned audio professionals and the explanation was then offered that the equalisers in the Dolby processor "drifted" that much that a daily eq was necessary. Well, you can imagine that a hundred or so audio professionals walked away from that meeting thinking either Dolby were pathetic or that these film guys were completely out of their tree (or both). In my case, I chose the latter.
 

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