Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 16mm Film Transport

This is topic 16mm Film Transport in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Paul Trimboli (Member # 1509) on 02-08-2003, 07:18 PM:

I need some help on the design of a long play system for 16mm 6000" reels. I am thinking a tower system that uses some kind of arm with a roller and when the film drops past a certain point it detects it and the speed picks up. Any help? Where could I find a schematic for something that could control motor speed like this?? I want to show films with a portable 16mm machine and do not want to run changovers.

Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 02-08-2003, 08:17 PM:

I'd keep it simple. A slip-clutch mechanism would do the job nicely for 16mm.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 02-08-2003, 08:24 PM:

Paul,

Do you have access to an Eiki dealer? I believe that they made just the machine you are looking for. perhaps there is not a great market for feature length 16mm but that was the market they were addressing.

Hope you can find it.

KEN

Posted by Brad Haven (Member # 954) on 02-08-2003, 10:31 PM:

Hi Paul,
There are some 16mm towers floating around in perth, there is a good dealer in perth, i can get back to you tomorrow with their name and number, if you like?
brad

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 02-08-2003, 10:36 PM:

Already been done. You want to order Eiki accessory number 5350 Long Play Pedestal. It uses 6000 foot reels and has speed controls for both "project" and "rewind" positions. Order from an authorized Eiki dealer such as KMR Electronics (www.kmr.com) in Santa Ana, Calif. Some info on this unit is available at www.film-center.com under "Quick Tips".

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-08-2003, 11:44 PM:

Personally, I wouldn't buy anything fomr Eiki ever. In a few years that product will be obsolete and parts will be NLA. Eiki is all to famous for ths scheme of things. Their products are only ok in my book. Your best bet is talk to Brad and see how he modifies an AW-3 to run 16mm. I hear its prety easy to do. Save your $$ for more important thngs.
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-09-2003, 01:41 AM:

Mark, the Eiki Long Play Pedestal has been around for 20+ years so I doubt parts will suddenly become unavailable (plus, how complex can it possibly be?).

I built a long play device for use with portable projectors years ago. I happened to have an ancient DeVry to lend a pair of detachable reel arms. They were normally stowed inside the cover; I used the brackets from the cover as the attachment points on the long play unit. Takeup was via a DC gear motor from a surplus house.

Using a platter for 16mm is clever but is clearly overkill unless there is one already present, the no-rewind concept is for some reason important, or you're screening Warhol's "Empire" (485 minutes). Otherwise for the amount of film to be handled for a normal feature screening a 6000' reel is exactly what is needed.

Posted by Paul Trimboli (Member # 1509) on 02-09-2003, 06:45 AM:

Hmm, Yeah Brad if you could get me their name and number that would be great. In Austrlia most feature films are released on both 35mm and 16mm, for small country towns 35mm is just too expensive so 16mm provides a great alternative. Most films are in letterbox format. Steve how to control the take up tension and isn't it a little ruff on the film having no pay out control? Brad you know of any good 16mm portables for sale?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-09-2003, 07:15 AM:

I can bet that transport costs a bundle "down under" too.

Steve, There was a bank I serviced on the north side of Chicago that had a pair of Eiki Pedestal machines. Perhaps you know of it..... Those machines had tons of problems with mainly the take up using large reels, and parts were no longer available for them. The Eiki Xenon machine sitting by my back door which needs only two transistors to fix is also headed for the garbage can because they were custom transistors made for Eiki that are obsolete now.....and custom made transistors are quite rare by themselves. The reel transport looks like nothing but another slip clutch type of device that I'd again, stay away from. If he's running lots of film on a regular basis, or running lots of showings daily, the platter method is the best way to go.
Mark

Posted by Paul Trimboli (Member # 1509) on 02-09-2003, 07:34 AM:

I guess I forgot to mention I need a system that is portable since I will be moving around with it to different shows. So a platter is out of the question. But I need some help with this so any information would be great!

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 02-09-2003, 07:50 AM:

Mark,

Tell me more about the Eiki that you are trashing. I have never heard of an entire machine being killed by two parts.

The Eiki towers were first introduced in the late 1970's when I was media director for a school system. They were very useful in large lecture rooms where the entire series of films were loaded onto the big reel with red and green leaders between them. The instructor simply started the machine and ran it until the red screen appeared. The machine was then stopped and ready for the next subject lecture. (Of course the focus was remotely controlled!) Never gave a minute of trouble.

KEN

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-09-2003, 08:08 AM:

Paul: I don't recall any adverse issues with the take up tension once I went the gear motor route and the arms I used didn't even have a legitimate slip clutch (on the DeVry projector it was driven by a coiled wire belt). The gear motor on suitable voltage drove it fast enough for takeup at the start but was not so powerful as to hurt the film at slower speeds with a full reel and there was sufficient possible slippage with the drive belt. The B&H portable shown has spring-loaded snubber at the end of the film path. I'm speaking in the past tense because I eventually dismantled it when I no longer needed it and sold my 16mm big reels to the post house I worked at for use with a Hortson pedestal. (Mark and I have a sneaking suspicion that the gear from that booth--C's, R3's, CP50, A7's, the Hortson, etc. might have ended up at the bank he mentioned.)

Mark: I think the fact that the platter makers, AFAIK, don't offer 16mm components attests to the fact that not too many people consider that to be the best solution to their 16mm film handling needs, ingenious though it may be.

Kenneth: You didn't officially call dibs on Mark's junk Eiki. So I will. [Big Grin]

Posted by Paul Trimboli (Member # 1509) on 02-09-2003, 08:24 AM:

Can you explain to me a little more about this slip clutch, and how could I build on. I think I know what you mean, but what could I use to make one? I like the idea if the Eiki long play system, want to build something that look pretty much like that, like a double MUTT.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-09-2003, 08:32 AM:

The slip clutch is the same thing that you will find on any lower reel arm on a 35mm projector that is belt driven.

For what it's worth, here is my first attempt at a 16mm extended play system back in 1989.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-09-2003, 09:57 AM:

Years ago Atlantic Audio Visual built several long play 16mm systems that held a 26" reel in front and one behind the projector with a servo control on each arm
In the middle sat a modified 16mm projector that was controled on the control plate underneth. The projectors had a small 450 or 900 watt xenon mounted above it shinning down through the top of the vent of the lampcompartment onto a 45 degree cold reflector
They were actually fairly reliable

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-09-2003, 10:42 AM:

Actually the Eiki slip clutches I'm familiar with depend on the total weight of the reel for the slip. Hence, the heavier the reel gets, the more tension there is on it. A really piss poor design. They are nothing like the standard theatre 35mm slip clutch......plus the parts to fix the clutch were nla.
Mark

Posted by John Spooner (Member # 1565) on 02-09-2003, 10:51 AM:

Dear Paul.
If you have no luck in your quest for a large spool system and a projector, I have 2 Bell and Howell Zenon projectors and a large spool unit here you can make an offer for. The only thing you will need to find are some 6000ft spools, otherwise it runs very well and would be good for your needs.
John Spooner. Adelaide.

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 02-09-2003, 12:26 PM:

There are pictures of the Atlantic Audio Visual units on www.film-center.com under "Quick Tips". I felt that Atlantic did a good job with their conversions.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-09-2003, 12:27 PM:

The Toshiba Devices I need for the Eiki Power supply are 2SC2650. I'd like to get 4 of them if anyone knows where they might be available...... I believe that the casing is obsolete on these devices.....
Mark

Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 02-09-2003, 01:11 PM:

Mark,
A quick search turned this up.

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/techsonic/page8.html

They have them for about $12.00 each

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-09-2003, 03:08 PM:

B&H portables and the Hortson pedestal are among those that also use reel weight for a clutch (by having the entire spindle being able to move slightly and hang on a cloth belt. It makes sense...while you want more slippage with a full reel you probably need more torque to turn it. Mark is inferring that it's working exactly backwards from what it ought to be and I don't think that's true. On the contrary I think it's working exactly right which is why several makes use that system. It would be interesting if someone could do a test to see which is true.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 02-09-2003, 03:20 PM:

Cinemeccanica V-18s and Towers work that way, too, Steve. The more weight accumulates, the more torque applied to turn it.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-09-2003, 03:28 PM:

Sure they do but that type of clutch is not very good, nor reliable. Overall film tension is then based on the empty weight of the film reel. Too many variables there. Those that have used a servo controled tower, or MUT understand. Anyway, 96% of all theatre type take up clutches were of the slip type anyway. The other few percent account for weight controled type, and independently motor driven take ups. There were very few of both of these combined. Other than studio, or foreword/reverse machines I can't think of any theatre type that had servo controled take ups.

Adam, Thanks! I too found that source and will call them tommrrow.
Mark

Posted by Gordon Bachlund (Member # 124) on 02-09-2003, 03:31 PM:

I have an older B&H classroom machine that we converted to 6k reels by mounting 16mm dubber drives (torque motors) on each side of an A-V cart. The projestor, also mounted to the cart, was modified to remove the incandescent lamphouse and permit the use of a 900-watt Xenon lamphouse. Guidance rollers affixed to this Rube Goldberg lashup convey the film. I used it for two screenings late last year, and, while it was no beauty, it worked flawlessly. And, it's much lighter than the Eprad Sword lashup that we use for portable 35mm screenings with 12k reels! Don't be afraid to be innovative.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-09-2003, 03:34 PM:

Good idea Gordon! That also allows constant tension on take up, and feed out as the Sword would since they are usually eddy current motors.....Hey, did you put 300 watt lamps on them:)?
I still think a platter would work out really well to run 16mm, and would be really reliable, and extremely easy on the film.
Mark

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 02-09-2003, 03:41 PM:

quote:
Sure they do but that type of clutch is not very good

Well, I didn't say that. [Smile]

Posted by Gordon Bachlund (Member # 124) on 02-09-2003, 06:09 PM:

Mark, the Sword is unmodified except for removal of the "automation" to make it a manual transport with selector switches for operating mode. The ballast lamps were not changed, so I assume they are still 200W. The Sword has behaved remarkably well every time we've used it, and winds nice and tight without overdoing it.

If I didn't have an FP-16 for my future screening room I would seriously consider a platter. The B&H lash up and the Sword are for "special venue" screenings.

Posted by Paul Trimboli (Member # 1509) on 02-10-2003, 07:04 AM:

Thanks for your replys! Brad I love your platter idea, I had though of something like that after watching the Fort Worth OMNI tour and seeing the IMAX platter that require reqinding, much simpler to build. I had thought though that placing the platters over each other like a modern 35mm system that it would take up much less space. Building this system is probably going to be cheaper the build a 6000" spool system since one 6000" reel is gonna cost me like $90 AU, and I will need more then one for obvious reasons! Brad what did you mean by having a dirrect drive system ment you did not have tension problems? How did you make the films onto the platter? John Spooner, not sure what a good price would be, how much would you sell one for? Anyone in Australia have any good 16mm equipment such as splicers? Is making up a 16mm film the same as 35mm as in does it come on smaler reels that you put onto a biger reel? Building some AMPs this week end if I get time, found some 100watt amp kits that are perfect and on sale, then going to design the speakers, just looking for some good drivers that are well priced!

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-10-2003, 08:05 AM:

quote:
Is making up a 16mm film the same as 35mm as in does it come on smaler reels that you put onto a biger reel?

If you want to run an entire feature using one projector without a break, yes. 16mm features (in this country, at least) were usually supplied in 1,600 foot reels, which is the equivalent of two 2,000 foot reels of 35mm. So a 16mm feature usually comes on 2-4 reels, depending on how long it is. A 6,000 foot spool will hold about 150 minutes of film, and so is fine for most features. The inbuilt spool capacity of most portable projectors is 2,000 feet; some of the larger, xenon-powered models designed to be used in permanent installations can take 6,000 foot spools.

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 02-10-2003, 08:16 PM:

Paul:

I have an Eiki 1500 300w xenon machine which has been professionally modified with a slip-clutch mechanism and runs 6000 foot reels. It is not in use at this time and I can let you have it (complete with power supply, carrying cases, rewinds, reels and splicer) for $2000.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 02-12-2003, 12:29 AM:

The Eiki EX6000 handles 6000 ft reels and uses no clutches on reel drives. On take up the reel goes directly on the motor shaft and on supply there is a belt from motor to the reel shaft but no clutches. Hold back on foreward and rewind is achieved by application of weak but adequate opposite direction drive. The gummy belts used in this machine can be replaced by Roundthane made endless byheat fusing and are available from any competent industrial belting supply house. These machines ar ca. 1981 & later.

Posted by Webster Colcord (Member # 1955) on 01-27-2004, 04:19 PM:

Thanks for all this great information, I'm in the process of putting some kind of rig like this together - I'm shopping for the right motor for the take-up. I was wondering what the rpm should be- this motor is 4rpm which I think will be too slow (maybe the correct speed when the reel is full, but not when the feature is starting):

http://www.sciplus.com/itm_photos/34605.jpg

- and it would be great to find a motor that I could vary the voltage on, to vary the speed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I do that on this synchronous motor I will burn it out.

Posted by Webster Colcord (Member # 1955) on 05-24-2004, 05:51 PM:

Following Steve's picture as a starting point, I cobbled together this long-play rig for the yearly "Movie Nite" that I put on as a fundraiser at my son's Gradeschool. Last year I did a changeover with two Pageants, but the image was sort of dim. On Ebay I found a reasonably priced Pageant with a xenon Arc, but since I didn't have two, this necessitated the long-play system. The only difficult part was getting the right combination of speed and torque for the take-up motor. After trying many variations and motors, I finally used a stepper motor with an animation camera control (I'm an animator). I hadn't yet taped down the cords when this first picture was taken:

We showed "Looney Tunes: Back In Action" on a very large homemade screen and we had a great turn out, made a healthy profit for the PTA fund. The picture below was taken early in the evening, and by the time we started the show it was standing room only.

We put on this show in February and next year the PTA is talking about doing two movie events during the school year. Thanks for the help!