Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: EX with DTS and 650

This is topic EX with DTS and 650 in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-10-2003, 08:51 AM:

Is it possibile to have EX decoding on an external 6 channel input (DTS) with a CP650 unit?

Bye
Antonio

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 02-10-2003, 10:35 AM:

The user format 87 in the CP650 setup is called "External 6-Channel + Surround EX", so it appears to be possible.

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 02-10-2003, 11:34 AM:

Yes Antonio, it is.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com

Posted by Bas Raijmakers (Member # 1609) on 02-10-2003, 12:08 PM:

Hi there,

Can a similar feature also be used on a CP500/SA10 combination (in other way because the format doesn't exist here) ?

- Bas Raijmakers

Posted by Jon Bartow (Member # 241) on 02-10-2003, 01:17 PM:

Bas,
On a CP500/SA10 combo with a DTS6(D) you need to make an adaptor for the SA-10.
Assuming the following:
format 10 Dolby Digital non-EX on softkey 4
format 10 Dolby Digital-EX on softkey 8
format 11 External 6-channel on softkey 5

make your adaptor as follows:
DB25M to DB25F pin-to-pin connector
except, cross pins 5 and 8

you can put a switch in so that you can either have your adaptor be pin to pin or with pins 5/8 crossed.

With the pins crossed the SA-10 will engage whenever format 11 (SK5) is selected, but not format 10 (SK8). With the pins striaght it will engage for format 10 (SK8) but not format 11 (SK5)

I usually put the switch (DPDT toggle) mounted on the front panel of the rack nicely labeled for the operators.

Jonathan

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-10-2003, 03:56 PM:

Hi

What about this "modification" for SA-10 + DTS6D? Is it just for automation purpose? I believe that if you able the SA10 manually it has no problems with DTS since DTS is before CP.

Cannot the SA10 work properly if CP500 is not in DD-SK8?

Bye
Antonio

Posted by Jon Bartow (Member # 241) on 02-10-2003, 07:29 PM:

The SA-10 comes pre-wired for the "EX enable" pulse to be present on pin 8 of the automation input. Therefore with a CP500 you HAVE to put the format 10 on SK8 for DDEX. OR you have to wire a custom cable for the SA-10 if you want to use a different SK (it will work just fine, but why go through the trouble).

For DTS-ES using a Dolby SA-10 with a CP500 use an adaptor for the automation input on the back of the SA-10 as I described above.

If you are going to use an SA-10 with a DTS unit, you want the automation to be able to engage/disengage the SA-10 in case the DTS unit drops out for some reason.

With a CP500 or CP650 the DTS audio output goes into the CP500/650 for eq/level settings then out to the amps (or out to the SA-10 then the amps for the surrounds)

The SA-10 requires an automation pulse to engage "EX" mode. Just pushing the "enable" button in will not engage the "EX" mode. (you can force "EX" mode, but then it's there for analog too)

Am I making sense Antonio?

Jonathan

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-10-2003, 07:39 PM:

Jon,

Of course you are! Thanks!

So:
1. you can force the EX but it will work for any format
2. SA-10 comes with a cable that enable EX only when SK8 is selected. But EX is working only when a Dolby Digital is active on SK8? So I cannot set a DTS on SK8 and have EX working?
3. Is the SK8 automation a feature that comes with the first SA-10s? I feel to remember that the SK8 feature was a software upgrade born AFTER the SA-10 appeared on market.

Bye
Antonio

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 02-10-2003, 08:51 PM:

Beware...if you select ES on SK-8 you do just that...select it. That means if the dts fails for whatever reason or you 'forget' to put the discs in and your automation switches it in, when the dts fails, it will not switch out. You will have no sound.

Posted by Bas Raijmakers (Member # 1609) on 02-11-2003, 04:41 AM:

Antonio,

In our setup, SK8 is only used to force EX playback on non-flagged copies. When a reel is correctly flagged (to set the SA10 automatically into EX mode), the CP500 (v. 1.61, no problems yet) sticks to SK4 (default setting, format 10). SK8 should only be used when forcing a non-flagged reel to EX playback.

Now let's try this tweak at work [Wink]

- Bas

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 02-11-2003, 10:47 AM:

I did not know that EX encoded tracks are flagged. I thought the automation would activate the SA-10 every time the processor played digital, switching EX decoding off during analogue playback to avoid the unit sending all the audio to the back surround.

Posted by Jon Bartow (Member # 241) on 02-11-2003, 01:45 PM:

Antonio,
1- yes you can force EX through a "test" mode, but it is not for normal operation and switching to analog will not turn it off.
2- You can program the CP500 for format 11 (external 6 channel) on SK8 but then you have to rewire the DTS automation cable as well. So leave well enough alone and have format 11 on SK5 and format 10 EX on SK8
3- AFAIK the automation cable has remained the same throughout then entire run of SA-10, but the "flagged" prints require an upgrade to the older units to work.

If you have a CP500/SA-10/DTS6(D) setup I have found the easiest way is to connect everything according to the installation manuals and then add the adaptor I described above to use the SA-10 with the DTS

Jonathan

Posted by Bas Raijmakers (Member # 1609) on 05-19-2003, 05:56 PM:

Thanks Jon,

Your tip worked out great [thumbsup]

I finally got some time to build a switchbox according to your description of the pins and it works very fine with the Matrix Reloaded (first test, more will definetely follow), are the DTS discs with this copy ES encoded by the way?

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 05-19-2003, 11:54 PM:

No the Matrix Reloaded is not an ES (DTS) or EX (Dolby) release.

Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 05-20-2003, 02:17 PM:

Hi Daryl,

Are you sure ? On the film box is labeled Dolby digital EX, but on the leader is only marked Dolby SRD. Mysterious is'int ?

For connecting a CP500 + SA10 + DTS6 I dont have an idea, but I've experienced some troubles with a CP500 + SA10 + a SDDS DFP2000 connected in serial with the SA10:

When we played the feature in SDDS a DC voltage from ±6 vDC appears on the surround outputs at the four surround amplifiers. And even if we trying to force the SA10 to work, pushing SK8, the SA10 unit refused to work....
To end with this problem, I disconected the SDDS unit... [Frown]

But why tis DC voltage at the output when the SDDS unit play ?

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 05-20-2003, 03:51 PM:

Yes, I am sure that the Matrix Reloaded is only a 5.1 mix. Check your leaders, you'll likely find that 'EX' has been scratched out.

http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004890#000003

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 05-20-2003, 07:37 PM:

quote:
But why tis DC voltage at the output when the SDDS unit play ?

Because your system is not properly set up and grounded. That is probably some feedback from the status signal from the CP500 to enable the SA10. Check the SDDS tech notes and the SA10 manual and then check what your tech did...
The DFP-D2000 switches itself to digital when good SDDS data are read. I guess your system is set up in a way which will still have the SA10 enabled by the CP500. That`s OK since basically all films with SDDS will have Dolby Digital as well.
Instead of disconnecting the DFP, try playing in hard bypass or switch it off simply to check if the voltage is still there.

Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 05-21-2003, 03:18 AM:

Hi Michael,

I've already checked the grounging of the unit. It was ok.
For information, the surround signal path is:
CP500 out > SDDS in > SDDS out > SA-10 In > Amplifiers.
I mean that the problem could come from the fact that the SDDS unit use electronicaly balanced outputs and the SA-10 use Unbalanced Inputs.
I wanted to insert two audio transformers to avoid this problem, but my chief told me that this theater will be closed the next month... [Roll Eyes]

Bye;

Posted by Bas Raijmakers (Member # 1609) on 05-21-2003, 07:35 AM:

It's a shame that this particular feature has not been released in EX/ES. Dolby and DTS hyped it in the last few years and now the number of released prints nowadays are low, far too low.

I had to force EX using our SA10 (using the wiring mentioned on the first page by Jon) on the Matrix Reloaded in combination with the DTS track and the results are amazingly good (the bullets going right trough the auditorium to the back surrounds, far more realistic than with EX disabled, tested both though).

I cannot get this.. The Matrix Reloaded is one of the few features I can say that Extended Surround was invented for, use it!

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 05-21-2003, 12:11 PM:

THE MATRIX RELOADED is a 5.1 mix, not an EX/ES mix. We do not have any control over how a film is mixed. That is decided by the film maker.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com