This is topic Why white leader at the end of film? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004548

---

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-13-2003, 04:33 PM:
 
Hi everyone

I saw a photo on pictures section (I do not remember where... WB?) where there is a platter with the tail leader on it. It is a white leader. Why put a white leader at the and of film? Cannot the film leader itself can make the job?

Bye!
Antonio
 

---

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 02-13-2003, 04:55 PM:
 
Would it be a length of leader wrapped round the film to prevent tail movement?
 

---

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-13-2003, 05:05 PM:
 
No, check eighth photo at "Warner Village Cinemas 30 screen" in pictures section.

Bye
Antonio
 

---

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 02-13-2003, 05:18 PM:
 
It's fairly common to add a length of coloured film to the footer of the last reel of a film. Not sure why. Better ask a platter person.
 

---

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-13-2003, 05:19 PM:
 
Antonio, that may just be a "drag-strip."

Some projectionists use extra tail leader to run through the projector after the final cue (dowser closed, non-sync audio, etc) and so instead of dragging the tail of the print on the ground, the drag-strip takes all the abuse. It doesn't actually get projected.

As Michael pointed out, this is a solution to a platter issue.
 

---

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-13-2003, 05:21 PM:
 
Thanks...

Wow, this is far forward my idea of "make film right"...

Bye
Antonio
 

---

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 02-13-2003, 05:36 PM:
 
It could also be for interlock. If the end of the film leaves the first projector while the second is still playing, it could trigger the failsafe and stop both projectors before No. 2 has finished the show.
 

---

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-13-2003, 05:38 PM:
 
It looks too short for an interlock tail.
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-13-2003, 05:43 PM:
 
"Drag strip" is the real reason, although I've never heard of that term, I do find it suitable. ANY time a film is plattered, there should always be AT LEAST an extra 10-20 feet of tail leader added to protect the end of the film. Few people care enough to do it though.
 

---

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-13-2003, 06:07 PM:
 
Our system (Cinemeccanica's Vector 1000) will not shut down the other projector once the dowser is closed. So the print can run up to the end without the need of extra leader.

Brad,
If the white tail leader is spliced directly at the end of film, I fully agree with you. But why don't leave the film tail leader? Usually it is long enought to protect the extarnal side of the film.
The white leader is just out of the platter core. Otherwise I could think at a leader with cues on it, to avoid the need to put the cue at the end of film calculating every time the correct distance.

Bye
Antonio
 

---

Posted by Lee Davies (Member # 536) on 02-13-2003, 06:09 PM:
 
I work for another Warner Village cinema in the UK. At my site we use different coloured polyester on the tail of the last reel to indicate the certificate/rating of the film. Green for "U" certificate, yellow for "PG", blue for "12A", white for "15" and finally red for "18". This gives us easy identification of films if for example you had a "U" cert kids film on one platter, and a adult "15" or "18" film on another platter.

Whenever I assemble a print I *always* wrap coloured poly around the print 2 and a half times and enough for a decent tuck under. Plus it serves the purpose Brad mentioned to protect the tail end of the credits which are sometimes printed very close to run off frames.
 

---

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-13-2003, 06:16 PM:
 
Lee

This is a good idea, it would be unappropriate to project the wrong title in that case!!

About credit close to the end of the print... Sometimes I cut away part of the tail since it is so long I have to start again the projector and wait too long to reach the end of the print! But if the tail is short, I agree with all of you that a protection is needed.

Bye
Antonio
 

---

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-13-2003, 06:17 PM:
 
It's not just about platters. Show prints often have white painted leaders attached in front of and arrears of the regular leaders. And on workprints sometimes they will add a couple feet of clear outboard of the painted leader to protect it yet still leave the labels readable. It's all about protection.
 

---

Posted by Lee Davies (Member # 536) on 02-13-2003, 06:23 PM:
 
Antonio,

That's the reason we introduced it! If you have a print with a green or yellow tail, and a print with a white or red tail if you are rushing or busy, it just makes you think "wait is this the right film ?" when you start to thread. Therefore avoiding unhappy customers!
 

---

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 02-13-2003, 07:11 PM:
 
This works even better, You know the name, format & anything else required. Wrap a length of old trailer round the entire film & viola. P.S. thanks to whomever thought of this.


 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-13-2003, 07:21 PM:
 

quote:

---

If the white tail leader is spliced directly at the end of film, I fully agree with you. But why don't leave the film tail leader?

---

And where exactly did I ever say to remove the tail leader? I didn't. The tail of the last reel should never be removed.

If you are cutting off part of a "long" tail, then I have to question your patience. The most I have ever seen on a lab supplied tail is 30 feet. That is nothing. I always put 50 feet or more. Even 100 feet of tail leader would only take about a minute to roll through. Are you in THAT much of a rush?
 

---

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-13-2003, 07:39 PM:
 
Well, wha'd'ya know: I was wrong about it being a drag-strip.

Interesting idea to color-code for different ratings. I once tried using different colors to indicate scope or flat. It didn't work out because there was always SOMEONE who just wanted to use whatever color was handy.

I actually don't have hard feelings about it, though. It's easier to just keep one color in stock.

Back to ensuring that the "right movie" is playing...

All of our projectionists are trained to add a strip of white kraft tape and WRITE the name of the movie as well as image and sound formats. They also mark the print number and the initials of the person who built the print.

Getting back to the color-coded ratings: The rating is kind-of irrelevant in the booth, isn't it? Surely, you want to make sure that it's the scheduled movie and not just a movie that's "suitable" for the minimum age viewer?
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-13-2003, 07:55 PM:
 
Good to see you aren't bothering to read all of the posts Manny. Michael, Steve and myself all had a few things to say.
 

---

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-13-2003, 08:09 PM:
 
I can explain!

That's what happens when you take too long to draft a response. Other people reply in the meantime.

For the record, I read all of the posts except I didn't see David's or Brad's posts because they hadn't been posted yet.

Anyway...I'm sorry!

Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-13-2003, 08:13 PM:
 
I was just poking fun because the way your post reads, three people agreed with your drag strip explanation.

Even more interesting though, how long do you spend to compose a response? Nah, I'll start a new thread for that. Should be interesting.
 

---

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-13-2003, 09:38 PM:
 
Extra protective leader is a really good idea, as is color-coding and labeling to avoid confusion.

Kodak's FPC subsidiary sells a variety of 35mm leaders:

http://www.fpchollywood.com/film-leaders-editorial-leaders.html
 

---

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-13-2003, 11:50 PM:
 
This isn't just a platter issue; extra leader is important for reel-to-reel shows, too, and I'll definitely add extra head and tail leader to any print that will be run more than a couple of times. This is especially important with 6000' reels, as most labs just give barely enough tail leader to wrap around a full 6000' reel.

I've been using clear "sound fill" leader (which appears to be sections of old release prints which have been bleached or otherwise had the emulsion removed). I'd never thought about the color-coding idea, but I'd be tempted to try it if the colored leader isn't significantly more expensive. The 16mm film libraries usually use green for head leaders and red for tail leaders.
 

---

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-14-2003, 01:12 AM:
 
In film editing red leader and red marking pens are reserved for sound elements. I know it doesn't really affect most of us (unless you do double-system test screenings) but I still can't bring myself to use anything red on prints.

Or blue, for that matter. Because blue designated optical compositions (effects shots).

Green was for negatives.

"Cut Picture" (i.e. edited reels or segments) got white or yellow leader and all notations were made in black ink.

And I'm trapped into that mode of thinking. I can't shake loose. It just looks wrong to me when I see other colors used in projection leaders.

I made up the master of my leaders using white painted leader with frame ticks. I marked it up with a black sharpie and then had it looped and contact printed onto black and white reversal stock (polyester base). The white part comes out clear -- making it very easy to frame -- and the polyester base is virtually indestructable.

Each individual leader is 100' in length and they can take a lot of abuse. There's no real rhyme or reason, but the operators will occasionally send some dirty leaders to me for cleaning and I'll make sprocket repairs, if needed. We print a new batch of these leaders (4000') about every 2 years or so. (These are head (threading) leaders, by the way).

Because of the looping process, the lab has to add its own leader and this results in about 15 feet of "junk" film in between each leader. I give it to the operators to use as drag strips but they don't last very long. Just last week somebody left the tail taped down and they were relieved to find that only the drag had been affected because the actual print had already tailed out of the machine and was half-way up the return side of the platter when the jam occurred.

Not all of our projectionists add extra tails to their movies. It isn't mandatory for them to do so. Those who do sometimes use the original white painted leader that we once used for threading. We still have quite a bit of that but it doesn't stand up to repeated runs because it's an acetate base, which tears easily.

Most often, that white stock is used with Velcro to make a tail wrap.

BEWARE OF VINYL STOCK -- I once got a couple of rolls of this stuff and it doesn't like to go through the projector. It's very flexible and bendy and it just kept walking right out of the projector. I am still picking up little, tiny scraps of vinyl leader off the floor and out of lamp houses and we haven't used vinyl in over 3 years. The brand name was "Jubilee" or something like that. Anyway, it's vinyl and it didn't work for me.

Wow! That's a long, rambling post. It's late and I clearly need sleep.

Good night all.

This post took waaaay too long to compose (about 7 mins).
 

---

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-14-2003, 06:25 AM:
 
When preparing archival elements for any trip through a machine of any description, we always attach 60ft of spacing at the start and end for 35mm, 30ft for 16mm and 10ft for 8mm and 9.5mm. For master status elements we use light-struck spacing only, in case the dyes used on dyed stock were to decompose and/or cause contamination. We use coloured (inert) cores to indicate the base type: red=nitrate, white=triacetate, brown=other acetate and/or mag striped (mag film is coded according to its base type) and black=polyester.

For viewing copies (i.e. not preservation elements) we use green dyed spacing at the head and red at the tail, in order to easily be able to identify whether a reel is head out or tail out.
 

---

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-14-2003, 08:46 AM:
 
Brad,

I always wonder me if my idea of "film made right" is correct or not.
I strongly believe in your "film done right" procedures, but sometims I wonder me if some of them are just a bit exaggerated.

Let's take the tail of the film. I fully agree that if the tail is short an extra leader must be spliced. But what about if the original tail can surround the film two times? I cannot see the need to add extra leader in this case, or not? I usually cut extra tail just to have 1/2 round after the end of the film to protect it. But I cannot see the need of wait 1 minute at each projector when unloading it. Brad, our system (cinemeccanica's) will not unload the projector automatically when the end of the film is reached.

More generally, I believe that sometimes the "film done right" has to co-exist with the reality of the job! So, I'd say let's keep 3 meters of leader, not 30...

I'm not sure to have express my thought exactly!

Bye
Antonio

 

---

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 02-14-2003, 10:12 AM:
 
Does the automation not allow you to keep the projector running at the end, just close the douser? I think we talked about this before, but I don`t remember.
 

---

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-14-2003, 10:29 AM:
 
When using platters, the protective leader at the tail end must be long enough so any leader that has the opportunity to touch a dirty surface (e.g., the dirty floor) is separated from the image-bearing film by a reasonable distance. Dirt picked up by the leader tends to migrate into the roll, so the more laps of leader, the better.
 

---

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-14-2003, 10:46 AM:
 
Michael,

No, our automation doesn't allow to run the film at closed dowser. I can make a program that do it but when the film exit from the projector the platter failsafe will alarm the projector without terminate the program. I saw in Milan another automation system that act as you described.

John,
Yes, there must be a tail leader to prevent the dirt to transfer to the final part of the film, but I believe that 1/2 round at the end of the film are enough... What do you think?

Bye
Antonio
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-14-2003, 11:21 AM:
 
Antonio,

One half wrap around a print of tail leader is NOT enough. Just like head leader, tail leader that is dragged on the floor and handled (tucking the print and winding it onto the takeup platter, etc) will collect dirt and that dirt will migrate backwards into the roll, just like head leader dirt migrates inwards into the roll.

Your cutting off less than 5 feet at the end saves you what, a few SECONDS? In the time it has taken you to read this one paragraph, that excess leader you cut off and threw away could have already passed. Really, you need to learn some patience for the best interest of the films you run and your presentation.

Also, over here in the US we make our measurements in feet not meters. I also never said that tail leader had to be a minute long to protect the end. I understand you are still learning English, but you do need to read carefully.
 

---

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-14-2003, 12:21 PM:
 
rad,

I did not say one half, I said one or two wrap around film tail!!
Sometimes the original tail of the film can wrap the film four or five times at the end of the film. This is too much IMHO.
I didn't mean that I do not want to wait at the end of film. I said that, in my honest opinion, four or five wrap around the tail of the film is too much.

Meter: I apologize for the inconvenience, but I really do not have right here a metric converter (I have a link on my PC at home that I use to convert meter/feet) and I tought that an indication in meter can be understandable. Sorry.

About the english: sometimes I misunderstand people that speak Italian, I believe that you too sometimes does the same. So please excuse me if sometime I misuderstand you or others that speak a foreing language! With "a minute" I meant the time you have to wait with a too long tail!

However my reply want to analyze a more general question: are sometimes some "film done right" procedures too "exaggerated" if conpared to the real projection job?

Bye!
Antonio
 

---

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-14-2003, 12:28 PM:
 
Antonio:

I agree with Brad that having 30 to 60 seconds worth of tail leader is really not a big deal in terms of the time it takes to run through the projector, and it keeps the end of the print MUCH cleaner. If you can't afford real leader, just use an old trailer (but be sure you don't accidently play the picture or sound on it).

If you don't have an on-line film cleaner (Why don't you? ), you definitely need to clean the leaders between uses, as they will tend to pick up alot of dirt that you want to remove before it contaminates the print or equipment. Of course, an on-line film cleaner is highly recommended and very affordable for the obvious improvement in image cleanliness that it provides.
 

---

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-14-2003, 12:31 PM:
 

quote:

---

Yes, there must be a tail leader to prevent the dirt to transfer to the final part of the film, but I believe that 1/2 round at the end of the film are enough... What do you think?

---

quote:

---

However my reply want to analyze a more general question: are sometimes some "film done right" procedures too "exaggerated" if conpared to the real projection job?

---

Forgot that part. In a word, NO! I find most of the time they are understated.

As for metres to feet, multiply by 3.3 to go from metres to feet. You'll end up pretty close.
 

---

Posted by William Phillips (Member # 1162) on 02-14-2003, 01:00 PM:
 
I have a tower system but still put about 100ft of tail leader onto every print. Not for identification but as protection. My tower is a Westrex that is mounted horizontaly, the distance from payout spool to projector is 20 feet. The tower is also at right angles to the machine.
There have been a few ocasions in the past that if you dont catch the tail of the film as it runs off the payout spool the film will find something to catch itself on, and a jam will happen. So now at the end of the film the tail leader is some form of triacatate so if a jam happens then it will snap easily.
 

---

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-14-2003, 02:03 PM:
 
Brad,

But I believe that 2 wrap around the end of the film can be enought to have the end of the film on the takeup platter while the tail is running out of the projector. More (john) we have film cleaning system (not so good but we have one!) so, really, I believe that with a cleaning system just 2 wrap around the end of the movie can be enough, I admit that without a cleaning system more wrap is recommended.

About have the projector running out the tail by itself: I just have an idea, perhaps it is possibile (Vector 1000). But when I go to the projector to unload it, I do not strike again the lamp, just start the motor.

Despite my english I do not want to question the "film done right" procedures. It is a way of doing our job at best. I just found that sometimes few of them are just a bit incompatible with the rythm of a modern multiplex. On my old 1-screen theater I had all the time I want and I clean the print by hand weekly. It is not believable to clean a film in a multiplex (that is why someone create film cleaner!!! )

Bye
Antonio
 

---

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-14-2003, 02:11 PM:
 
The more tail leader, the better. And old trailers are free. Hopefully you can cue your automation to close the dowser and switch the sound back to non-sync as the tail leader goes through.
 

---

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-14-2003, 02:16 PM:
 
FWIW, I've always found I've had more free time running 10 screens than 2.

Two wraps would probably be about 18' on most features. That would probably just make it on to the deck.
 

---

Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 02-16-2003, 07:37 AM:
 
I remember having this exact conversation with a major theatre chain when I started projecting there.

They had no extra tail added to their prints at all - just what the lab supplied with the final reel, which is certainly not enough to avoid film damage. As a result, the final credits suffered some pretty horrendous emulsion scratching and even creasing.

When we had our first projection meeting, this was one of the points I addressed. I suggested 50 feet of extra tail, but the objection that was raised was that there may not be enough time during tight schedules to allow the extra film to run through.

I pointed out that 50 feet of film runs through in just over 30 seconds, and that if they cannot allow an extra 30 seconds, then they have very serious problems with scheduling!

Of course I mentioned that this will save the end of each print. Unfortunately, they just weren't interested. How sad.

The other major objection they raised with all the revisions in film-handling technique that I suggested was that they would take too much time, and that they were too pressed for time. How can there be not enough time to perform the job correctly? You either do the job or you don't. Interestingly, there seemed to be plenty of time for other (mandatory) tasks that had nothing to do with improving the results on the screen that customers were paying to see! An example of such a task would be dusting the handrail in the concrete stairwell that connected the projection rooms on a regular basis.

I left that job soon after, as it was too frustrating trying to run a quality presentation with co-workers who paid plenty of corporate-speak lip-service about 'quality presentation' this and that, but when it came to the crunch (which is what their tail leaders always did!), it was just that - corporate lip service, rather than a genuine commitment to get the best possible show on the screen.

Now I work with John Wilson again. (hey John! ).

'Nuff said.
 

---

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-16-2003, 11:26 AM:
 
I've check on my booth during these days (since I really don't know how much feets or meters are my "ideal" tail leader) and I agree that 30 seconds are the minimum lenght to have a "film done right".

I still believe that more than 45s is unecessary!

Bye
Antonio
 

---