Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Satisfying the Director or The Audience

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Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 02-15-2003, 01:46 PM:

Do you think a Projectionists job is to satisfy the filmmakers (i.e strictly making sure that the film is played exactly how the film maker wishes) or to make the show the best as possible for the audience?

(I suppose this mostly relates to sound levels when showing films.)

We have all seen those letter included in film cans where you are directed to play the film at 7. (Well by rights all films should be ran at 7) But what if it is too loud? Or too soft?

Do I make the director happy by making the audience strain to hear the dialog. Or do I notch up the fader to please the audience?

In other words who does the projectionist work for? The filmmaker or the customers?

I’d say it should be a balance between the two. You want to present the film as close as possible to how the director intended, while pleasing the audience at the same time.

One thing to consider: The audience are the ones who are actually paying for the ticket.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-15-2003, 01:58 PM:

No two sound systems are the same (even if calibrated with an R2). There are many factors to consider, and all have been discussed extensively here before. The bottom line is that your 7 is going to be different than someone else's 7...maybe only slightly, maybe drastically.

Adjust for the customers first. If you end up wanting to run at 8 and the director wants you to run at 7, then perhaps run at 7.5 or 7 3/4. If you are running at 5.5 and the director wants it ran at 7, perhaps you could push it a little and run at 6 or 6 1/4.

Of course if the director is in attendance, you'll get a good "talkin' to" if you don't do it their way. However it's the customers who are effectively paying your check.

Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 02-15-2003, 02:24 PM:

As far as sound is concerned, if the director is not present, you have to do your job as best you can. As Brad said, no two sound systems are the same, and asking someone to play a film at seven is silly. I have gotten notes asking me to play a film slightly louder than I normally would, and I complied. That sort of a request makes much more sense to me.

If a director is present, the I just do my best to get the image and sound as close as possible to their requests. I have screened films for many directors, and haven't run into any that had ridiculous requests that took away from the presentation from the audience's perspective.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 02-15-2003, 06:11 PM:

The director is in the business of pleasing the audience. If he doesn't please the ticket buyers, then he will not be directing much longer. I think that some director's requests are missinterped by "yes" men who are too stupid to understand what the director really wanted, and too scared for their jobs ("yes" men are "yes" men, because they don't have a clue) to ask any further questions.

Do what is "right". Most directors would thank you for THINKING. (There is WAY too little thinking going on today)

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 02-15-2003, 07:13 PM:

We've had that situation at the Telluride Film Festival. The director wants it louder and the audience's ears are bleeding.

1st rule: Never let a director in the booth. I go downstairs and introduce myself to the director, then I point out the house manager with the headset on, and tell them to direct their inquiries to the house manager.

I feel that when a director is first presenting a film to an audience, nerves make the blood rush in his ears and drown out the volume.

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 02-15-2003, 07:32 PM:

quote:
I feel that when a director is first presenting a film to an audience, nerves make the blood rush in his ears and drown out the volume.

That is a very funny thought, but true!
May it be inscribed in the Film-tech Book Of Bon-Mots!

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 02-15-2003, 10:13 PM:

Here we go with the "7" argument again. [Roll Eyes]

There is nothing magic about "7" on a processor. It is only the reference point to which the output levels are calibrated during setup. That way, for a given position, the knob will reproduce a level that is known -- it allows for a specific degree of headroom. It's calibration for the fader.

It is NOT the level where everything should ride, all the time; regardless of what the film can notes say. That is a ridiculous notion, as locking the fader on "7" does not, for one, account for differences in auditorium occupancy. For example, a full auditorium will require a higher playback level solely because the audiences bodies will absorb as much as 40% of the sound.

So, how does that figure when there's only a handful of people there? It doesn't.

If "7" were the no-compromise, all films, all audiences, all-the-time level position, there would be no need for a fader at all. It would just be setup at the prescribed level and forgotten.

Loud does not equal good.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-15-2003, 10:39 PM:

Seems like at some point in time I may have read about a device that could either automatically but most likey manually change the volume levels for the type of crowd you had. Was there such a monster? Basically the levels were preset for low med and full auditoriums.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-15-2003, 10:47 PM:

I guess I would answer the question with a question: "Who's buying the tickets?" Do what the customers want. (Up to a limit.) If your customers like it loud, turn it up. If not, tone it down.

At Cinemark the audience was younger, on average. We often turned the volume up a bit more... Especially on busy Friday/Saturday nights.

At Mercyhurst, the audience is a lot more adult/intellectually oriented. They don't want it ear-splitting loud. My boss even tries to tell me to turn it up sometimes. I happen to KNOW most of the customers' tastes because as soon as the movie tails out, I make my way downstairs to chat with the regulars as they exit the hall. They have told me, on no uncertain terms, that they don't like it loud. In fact, I was told, point blank, "If I want it THAT loud I'll go to Cinemark!" I have a reference mark painted on the face plate of the processor where, based on my conversations with the customers, I think the volume ought to be. When the boss tells me to turn it up; If it's already at the mark, I tell him, "Ok...", but I don't move the knob.

He never notices the difference anyway. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-16-2003, 04:20 AM:

What we need is a calibration plate that can be rotated. So when you set your level as comfortable for your audience, then you rotate the plate so that the number 7 lines up with the pointer on the fader knob. There. It's at 7. Everyone is happy.

Yes, my obligation is to make the film play as the director intended. I interpret that as the director not intending to drive patrons out of the theatre. If some piece of paper in the can causes that, then obviously whatever it says on that piece of paper can't be communicating the director's intentions adaquately. And bottom line, the director isn't going to reimburse me for the ticket refunds of the patrons who walk out, or even more importantly, he's not going to compensate me for the ill-will that will be generated by playing his picture in a way that offends my patrons. My theatre will still have to attract customers long after his picture finishes its run, so there is no question what motivates me as to where I set my fader -- the comfort of my patrons and the well-being of my business.

When the director wants to four-wall my screen for a screening of his film for his friends, then he can set the fader anywhere he wants.

As for directors who are present for a screening and who have come to tell how loud they want their picture played (and I know that it's too loud for my patrons), I instruct the ushers to point out the seat of the director to anyone who complains. "Go talk to that man....he controls the sound levels." Brooklynites have a way of making their displeasure known that cannot be mistaken. Let a few old ladies go at him and you'd be surprised how fast he comes to the booth to tell you to turn it down!

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-16-2003, 05:17 AM:

I have my own opinion on Director's notes. When director says "show my film absolutely at 7.0" is because he/she knows that too many theaters show movie at a too low fader setting. If the director put a note in the can the projectionist/manager will raise the volume at least a bit just to follow the guidelines partially...
I think that no directors would see the audience suffring while watching his/her film. I've always intended that notes like "pls show my film at a decent volume".

Moulin Rouge come with a more reasonable notes approx. like this "This film is a musical so it need an adequate volume setting. We showed it at 6.5 and we found that the volume was correct. Perhaps in a larger theaters more is recommended. Pls adjust the fader level to assure the audience a correct fader level in your theater". This is more indicated that "SHOW MY FILM AT 7.0 or FOX WILL TAKE BACK THE PRINT".

What so you think?

Antonio

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 02-16-2003, 05:26 AM:

quote:
Seems like at some point in time I may have read about a device that could either automatically but most likey manually change the volume levels for the type of crowd you had.

I remember reading once several years ago that someone (Dolby?) had a screening room that automatically adjusted the volume (and I believe the B Chain) based on how many people were in the room, the temp in the room, and certain other factors. I have no idea how this was done (censors in the seats???), it was just mentioned as an aside in an article somewhere.

The temp thing is interesting. I would think that even the outside temp could be made a factor. 400 people wearing T-shirts is going to effect the room's EQ differently than a 400 people wearing sweaters and having coats on their laps.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 02-16-2003, 05:45 AM:

quote:
Perhaps in a larger theaters more is recommended.

Okay, perfect example. This is the only reason why calibration of output levels need to coincide with "7" on the fader - it's the ONLY significance of the number. "7" is just an arbitrary point where we'll get a known quantity in the operation of the fader, which determines its range of adjustment. Nothing more. That's so, no matter what size auditorium the film plays in, everyone can count on the fact that a certain position on the fader translates to a particular level. That allows the system performance to be uniform from one installation to the next.

The misunderstanding begins when variations occur and differing numbers of human bodies occupy the space. One unchanging playback level (i.e., "7") does not, and cannot, apply across the board.

For studio screenings or dailies, I always hooked up a remote fader and threw it out the port to let them worry about it. Then they can play it as loud as they want -- and you can bet it won't be "7".

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 02-16-2003, 07:37 AM:

quote:
For example, a full auditorium will require a higher playback level solely because the audiences bodies will absorb as much as 40% of the sound.

I thought Tomlinson Holman performed this experiment, first with an empty auditorium, and then with a full auditorium, and found no difference in levels.

Granted this is just a recollection and I have no idea if there is a published article of this experiment. But is there a published reference to the 40% claim? Or any other claim of bodies absorbing more sound than empty seats and requiring the fader to be increased?

Here's some URL's from a quick Google search.
hereAn Overview of the Acoustical Effects of an Audience
Index for 2aAA
2aAA2. Sound absorption of occupied chairs as a function of chair design and audience clothing.
2aAA3. An overview of the acoustical effects of an audience.
hereSound Absorption in Concert Halls by Seats, Occupied and Unoccupied, and by the Hall's Interior Surfaces

hereMany Architects Are Baffled by the Problems of Acoustic Design
"Not only must acousticians consider the architecture of the room, but they also must take into account sound absorption attributable to the audience. For this reason, in spaces with fixed, upholstered seating, the sound absorption characteristics of an empty seat are typically comparable to those of the seat when occupied, ensuring that the room's acoustic qualities do not depend on the size of the audience."

Sound Absorption Coefficients

These seem to be primarily for concert halls, not motion picture theaters.

here Scaling The Experience: Considerations for bringing movie sound into homes.
By Tomlinson Holman

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-16-2003, 10:54 AM:

quote:
a device that could either automatically but most likey manually change the volume levels for the type of crowd you had

I think you guys are thinking of an auditorium fader. It adjusts the processor fader based on the 'volume' (likely SPL) in the auditorium.

Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 02-16-2003, 02:55 PM:

Whenever a sound correction was requested, whether it be a problem with the sound or the volume, I would always ask someone (first a manager, if they were busy I would get an usher) and just ask them to walk the auditorium to check it out. If one person complains it is too quiet, they might need to turn up their hearing aide. If one person complains it is too loud, they may have sensitive hearing (comparitively speaking). I always tried to make the customerS happy, not the customer. By doing so I was taking care of my first priority, insuring the success of my theater and also my second priority (always these are linked) of putting on the show the people involved (not just the director) put so much hard work into.

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 02-16-2003, 03:25 PM:

An interesting thing I heard & hadn't really thought of. If a customer complains about the sound level, ask them where they are siting. If they are against a wall then chances are the sound is going to be harsher than if they were in the middle of the cinema. This may fix their problem.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 02-16-2003, 04:05 PM:

quote:
is there a published reference to the 40% claim?

Jeffry, yes, but I don't remember where. This is something I just remember from years ago, when I was first getting into this business. Probably an SMPTE paper.

Regardless, even if human bodies absorbed 0% of the sound, the noise level increases. However, since people occupy considerably more space than a seat back, they will naturally absorb more sound. Find out for yourself, you can hear the difference in the room.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-16-2003, 06:27 PM:

There's an old saying in Hollywood:

"The projectionist always gets final cut."

...and that's always been my experience, for better or worse.

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 02-16-2003, 07:26 PM:

We all know that every theatre has its own characteristic "sound" which is the result of different parts in the chain and the room acoustics. So I`d say the projectionist should know what the best level setting is.

A little off-topic, but regarding directors:

I handled a press showing of film by a Famous European Director Without a Name, and when I prepared the print, it said "1.85" on the cans fresh from the lab (actually it was the answer print). On the print, there was a 1.66 masking which is very common in Europe.
Now I asked Mr. Director what format should be used. He smiled and said "As wide as possible" and went off to the buffet.
"Then why didn`t you shoot Scope?", [Roll Eyes]

I thought and ran the film in 1.85.
JUST TERRIBLE! Awkward framing, important details were clipped, not even the titles were intended for 1.85 format. [puke]

Fortunately, the Great Director left after the first show and we ran the film in 1.66 which looked fine.

Give the audience the best possible show using your experience and knowledge - the director won`t be there and does not pay anyway!

Posted by Keith Madden (Member # 910) on 02-16-2003, 09:21 PM:

An old story I heard at a 70mm premiere of Dick Tracy about projectionists knowing better than directors and having the final cut:

Warren Beatty had wanted all the gunshots to have impact so they were mixed louder than normal. The story involved Arthur Penn's use of loud gunfire in Bonnie and Clyde, supposedly to have the same impact as in the classic western Shane which also had startlingly loud gunfire. When Mr. Penn complained after the screening that the gunfire just didn't seem to have the impact that he wanted, they sent someone up to the booth to check. An old timer in the booth responded to the query by taking credit for fixing the sound problem. "Yes sir! I hadn't heard a mix that bad since Shane. So I did what I did back then and just turned down the fader every time they started shooting!"

I think directors are rightfully concerned about audio for the general release, hence the letters in the cans. Many theatres without operators after all just set the faders at a fixed level perhaps to accomodate mono teasers and trailers and just leave it there. But ultimately the projectionist, if there is one, should be the judge of level in the absence of a filmmaker present. You do have the final cut as far as playback is concerned. Go into the auditorium and listen on the first run and set a fader level. You know the room. You know where in the room to listen. You know what to listen for.

As for when filmmakers are present I let them do what they want. But if they bring it up too much, and they almost always bring it up, not down, I fabricate quotes from clinical studies that an audiologist cited for me that anxiety and nervousness can result in temporary hearing loss. Anxiety such as that experienced at the first public screening of the film they've previously heard only in a small screening room or worse on video and they are anxious the audience won't like it, but the people in the front rows are experiencing bleeding from the ear drums.