This is topic TA-10 Automation: Phantom Cue in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-20-2003, 01:27 PM:
 
Got a Comp. Eng. TA-10 automation that's misbehaving on me:

I have only 3 cues set up for this machine:
Problem:
It's sending phantom cues (Outboard - Cue #1) and putting the lights down at seemingly random times.
Have confirmed that it's the automation doing this and not the dimmer controller or its associated wiring. (Strand "Microcontrol")
Problem is that, at the time I witnessed the malfunction, I was not on the "driver's side" of the projector. I was across the room, unable to look underneath and see whether or not it was the cue detector that was sending false calls to the automation. (i.e. Unable to confirm that the AUTOMATION was behaving properly but the FM-35 detector was falsely calling for a cue.)
I have turned the projector on, let it sit idle and stood by and watched it for several minutes and the malfunction did not occur. (Watched pots never boil! [Razz] )
Later on yesterday evening, after the show had ended, the problem occurred again. It does not SEEM to happen while the projector is running, but since the lights are already down during the show, it could be happening but nobody would notice.

At this point, I'm going to have to go back to the booth and try to see if I can catch it misbehaving. Otherwise, I'm going to have to disconnect the wire from the light relay COM terminal and disable ALL light control.

Lights can be run manually from a wall panel, similar to a Lutron Graphic Eye but only has one channel and no ramp/fader. It's a PITA to do it this way, though. Saves you from having to dart across the room to get to the switch before the C/O opens!

Anybody seen this behavior before?

T.Y.F.Y.S!
 
Posted by Dino Panagiotopoulos (Member # 1579) on 02-20-2003, 02:42 PM:
 
We run TA-10 automation and Ive never run into this problem. The only time anything like this has ever occured is if we had a used print and a stray foil from the previous theater goes through. I dont know too much about the "brains" of the automation but could it be a short somewhere in the circuitry?
 
Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 02-20-2003, 02:42 PM:
 
I think my first step would be to replace (or exchange if a new one is unavailable) the FM-35. This at least would help to narrow down the source of the problem.

Good luck,

Don'tcha just love intermittent problems like this? [Smile]
 
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 02-20-2003, 02:56 PM:
 
I think an instable power supply for the foil reader could cause random impulses.
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-20-2003, 03:04 PM:
 
Just spent another 1/2 hour sitting by and watching. Meanwhile, I cleaned the Failsafe and made sure no stray bits of foil or metal shavings of any kind were in the area.

During that 1/2 hour no malfunctions occurred. I think I'm going to engage the grounding screw (S-3) on the automation motherboard to make sure that's not the problem. (Won't do that till my next trip upstairs, though.)
 
Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 02-20-2003, 05:24 PM:
 
Check closely the FM-35 and it's plug-in modules for cold solder joints.
 
Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 02-20-2003, 08:26 PM:
 
"It does not SEEM to happen while the projector is running, but since the lights are already down during the show, it could be happening but nobody would notice."

You hear the relay "clicking" yet the program is not running - weird!

Did you use any diodes on the event lines that could have a grounded lead or a lead that can touch the trace for another event line?

Faulty front panel switch? (Wouldnt trigger the relay though).

Maybe try subbing one of the yellow relays with another one.

Maybe check the relay socket for any fine "hairs" of wire that may have settled there since the installation.

Recheck (as Ken mentioned) the screw terminals that connect the main board to the FM-35, as well as the plug itself.

Still think that subbing the FM-35 (only takes an allen key) would be the best place to start.
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-20-2003, 08:49 PM:
 
Yes, the "Chicka-Chick" sound of the relays activating is unmistakable.

The diodes were factory installed, per our request. They have not been touched since. The manual switches are parallel to the relays and wouldn't cause them to trip, even if they malfunctioned.

I am afraid you are right. I think the FM-35 is the culprit.
My main problem is that I haven't been able to be there to witness the malfuntion as it happens. If I could see it happen I would know whether it was the FM-35 or the TA-10. I could see the lights on the cue detector.

As soon as I can witness the actual malfunctin I'll have a lot more to go on. I have reseated the multi-pin connector at the back of the failsafe itself. I haven't checked all the screw connections inside the chassis. Will do that next trip up to the booth.

I have worked on many FM-35s. We had a whole crop of those old-style ones that used to drop out when the LEDs got weak. I have changed out many of the film detector modules and the cue detectors. It only takes a screwdriver to change them... two minute job.

I'm thinking it's the cue detector module. Yes?
 
Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 02-20-2003, 11:18 PM:
 
Or switch the FM-35 with another machine in the complex and see if the problem travels.

The worst scenario here is that the problem may not re-occur for several days (or not at all), leaving you with the nagging doubt that it is just waiting for you to leave town before it mis-behaves again.
 
Posted by Matthew Peters (Member # 1495) on 02-20-2003, 11:47 PM:
 
I have seen a similar problem at the cinema I work for. The foil sensor was malfunctioning and emitting random pulses to the automation. The problem was noticed when a projectionist was doing a routine check on the cinema and noticed a movie, being projected onto the curtains with the house lights half way up. The problem had been like that for less than 5 minutes yet no one complained. The sensor must have sent at least two random pulses because (1) the lights had been turned up to half way, which is supposed to happen at the start of the credits. (2) The curtains had closed. One more pulse and the zipper, fire door and dowser would have closed, along with the sound reverting to non-sync etc. Thankfully the problem hadn’t got any further when it was noticed. The automation was set to ignore cue’s until the sensor was replaced.
You can see the old sensor dangling at the bottom of the frame.
-
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-21-2003, 12:37 AM:
 
Had this problem try swapping the micro controller
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-21-2003, 09:15 AM:
 
Just for knowledge:

If you have a FM-35 which has a bad sensor module, either the presnce/motion sensor or the cue sensor, you can remove the offending module and you will essentially bypass its function. I have done this several times when called to a theater for emergency calls.

Just pull the module and the projector will run quasi-normally. You won't have failsafe function or cue detection but it'll get the show back on-screen till the parts arrive.

After I get some things done today, I plan to go back upstairs and turn the automation on and let it sit idle for a while longer. Let's hope I can catch it in the act.

PS: Only one projector here. Plus, I've got the only TA-10 in town within about a 100 mile radius. Can't even go back to my old theater(s) and play "Let's make a deal".
 
Posted by Scott Manley (Member # 867) on 02-21-2003, 10:30 AM:
 
Had a similar problem before.....I had a FM-35 randomly cue the lights up on it own. Changed the unit...and all was fine after that.
 
Posted by Don Olson (Member # 90) on 02-21-2003, 12:14 PM:
 
Randy:
If you can't swap FM-35's to isolate the problem here is something you can try. Go to http://www.componentengineering.com/extra.html and get the color code for the FM-35 cable.....Disconnect the pair of wires from the cue that is bringing up the lights. You can do this on the upper left hand side of the mainboard. Then, if the "cue" keeps happening it can't be the FM-35 that is at fault. It would probably be one of the 3 chips that decode and output the cues. ID'd as.....U6, U7, and U8 on the mainboard. They are socketed and inexpensive. Call us for replacements. Be sure to insert with the same orientation as the originals.

Hope this is helpful
Don Olson
Component Engineering
dolson@componentengineering.com
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-21-2003, 02:52 PM:
 
Excellent! Thanks! [Smile]

I'll disable the Outboard (#1) cue and see what happens.
Won't be until next Monday, at least, until I am able to go up and work on it some more.

We have an orchestra concert and a couple music recitals going on until then.

Don, are the three chips identical?
In other words, if I swapped two of them, could I expect to see the problem move? (From Cue #1 to Cue #4, for instance?)
Not only would that 100% verify what the problem was, but which chip it was. Thus making the repair even LESS expensive.
 
Posted by Tom Fermanian (Member # 1094) on 02-21-2003, 03:07 PM:
 
Hi, are using this automation & fm35s, here is a problem that occured, it may or may not apply to your situation, we where getting "stray" cues, after days of checking & double checking,we discovered that a certain FM 35 was particularly sensitive to metal,So, when the operator was assembling his prints, he was sometimes perforating the cue tape in order to free the sproket hole, (we have since bought a cue punch machine) Well, a tiny bit sprocket hole size piece of foil tape occasionaly got stuck on one of the splicer hole plungers, that piece eventualy got caught under the next splice, this was enough to trigger the fm35 & automation!!! [eyes] [Eek!]
 
Posted by German Marin (Member # 918) on 02-21-2003, 07:49 PM:
 
Try changing the FM-35 between machines just to be sure the source of problem: TA-10 or FM-35. One of our TA-10 systems stopped suddenly with the alarm, the problem was the FM-35 doesn't see the film presence sometimes.
 
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 02-21-2003, 10:04 PM:
 
you don't need to disconnect anything if your presence/motion detectors fail; there are 2 white override switches on the left side of the main board of the ta-10, near where all the colored wires come in.

we have one ta-10 that only misbehaves when the breaker's turned on. about 50% of the time it will turn the house lights full off and switch to mono & dolby a sound (yes, both formats, simultaneously!). someday our tech might fix it.

carl
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-22-2003, 12:44 PM:
 
Yes, those of us who have TA-10's can use that.. and only for the presence/motion sensors.

For other brands of automation that may or may not have that... or for times when the cue detector produces a "Type-1" malfunction you need a quick, simple and effective way to temporarily disable the offending detector. Removing the detector module does that but allows the other one to still function.
 
Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 02-22-2003, 07:11 PM:
 
Why not change the outboard cue to centre and inboard? Eliminate the outboard cue altogether (temporarily at least). The out-board cue relay, not connected to anything, won't affect anything even if it does pulse. This should cure the fault for now.
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-23-2003, 11:01 AM:
 
Changing the cues would require soldering. The TA-10's cues are changed by removing/replacing jumpers on the MOBO. (Actually diodes, I believe.)

I have the cues set the way they are for a reason:
O.B. and I.B. cues turn the lights up and down.
Never does a cue that has the potential of appearing on the screen go through the projector until the very end when it doesn't matter anymore. One small "blip" on the screen, a fraction of a second before the dowser shuts will be hard to notice. Furthermore, if you make the cue small and stick in on the last frame of black film before the "blue band" it would take a sharp-eyed person, indeed, to notice it!
There are four wires that control the lights:
One end is inside the automation chassis, coming from the relay outputs and the other is inside the junction box on the wall where the light controller lives. IF this gets to be too much trouble, I can simply disconnect one of the wires and disable the light function. All I have to do is go inside the automation and unscrew the wire from one terminal.
If I undo the RED wire, I can disable the Lights OUT function. When the trailers are over all you have to do is press the button on the wall controller.
If I undo the BLACK wire, I can diable the light control functions all together and simply control the lights manually.

This strategy was all thought out in advance even before I ran the wires from the projector to the wall box. I had to make it so that, in the case of a malfunction, the system could be quickly diabled and restored to its original configuration in a matter of minutes.

This facility was originally a stage theater. The projector was installed as an after thought. In order to convince the powers-that-be to let me hook up all this automation I had to promise to hook things up in such a way that it wouldn't "interfere" with the other performances in the venue.
(Yes, they are a bunch of Technophobes! [Wink] )
It's a good thing I did things this way. This is SUCH a small problem but some people have a way of making mountains out of molehills, sometimes!

Thanks to all your help, I think I know what to look for. It's just a matter of being there in the booth when it happens so that I can verify whether it's the cue detector or the automation's circuitry. I have sat there for over an hour and it hasn't happend while I was watching. (Literally the "watched pot" effect, doncha' know! [Big Grin] )
As I get the time to investigate the problem, I will tell you all what I found out and what the solution turns out to be. [Smile]
 
Posted by Don Olson (Member # 90) on 02-24-2003, 12:24 PM:
 
Randy:

The 3 chips are all different. The complete set of chips is 4 dollars. Plus shipping. UPS ground would be about equal to that. If you are really on a budget perhaps we can mail them to you in an envelope.
Give me a call if you need them.

Don Olson
Component Engineering.
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-24-2003, 01:18 PM:
 
I've got a couple of things brewing right now... Our dimmer system has just taken a shit on us. I have to get on the horn to Strand Lighting ASAP. The entire house is dark until that is fixed.

As soon as I get back up to that booth I'll figure out which is is.

Why can't life ever be simple??? [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 02-24-2003, 03:56 PM:
 
There is one other thing you could try....

I used to have a problem in one screen when the xenon lamp striked it would close the masking. We fitted the shields that CE supply to filter out spikes and the problem dissapeared.

This does depend on where the problem is happening, if its the FM35 then the shield won't help but if it's some sort of spike being picked up elsewhere then the shield may help. They are not expensive at all and worth a try.

Thanks to Don and the team for their help in the past. I've moved on and have Pennywise to play with now [Big Grin]

Regards.

[ 02-26-2003, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Ken McFall ]
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-27-2003, 12:26 AM:
 
Finally, as I was sitting in the booth, breaking down "Columbine" did I witness the malfunction!

It seems like the automation is activating without being asked to do so by the FM-35. It happened while I had my attention on the film but I quickly glanced over and saw no lights lit on the cue detector. They stay lit for about 1/2 second, right? It happened again about a minute later. Again, I couldn't see any light on the detector. Furthermore, there's a small relay inside the failsafe that makes a clicking sound when activated. It's soft but when the room is quiet you can hear a distinct "double click" sound when the cue detector asks the automation to do something. I heard no such double click. Only a single.

So, Don, it looks like I'll be calling you up for a set of chips!

Thanks for the help! [Smile]
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-27-2003, 01:04 AM:
 
Are the systems interlocked? I had random shut-down cues. After going nuts...I found the problem. Shit was feeding down the interlock wires from an adjacent house. The connection wires were ran from the automation, into the HV raceway, out of the raceway, into the sound rack, out of the sound rack through the speaker cable wire raceway, into the speaker junction box, out the junction box, and over to the other projection station. It found its way into the automation through the same type of path as it left the other projection station. It took me a long time to get that one solved. I disconnected all that crap since we never interlock anyway. Not a bit of trouble with phantom cues whatsoever.

Is there a possibility your wiring could be as screwed up as mine was?
 
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-27-2003, 01:09 AM:
 
He's only got one projector there Paul.
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-27-2003, 01:18 AM:
 
OOPS! [Frown]

Anyway, if new "chips" do not solve the problem, I would suspect a voltage spike in the AC power line caused by a heavy-draw motor or some other spontaneous RFI getting into the logic and/or CPU boards, or crappy power supply filtering - for that matter, just a crappy ground connection. Are you near any high power transmitting towers?

Hell, if the local radio station once found its way into a CP-50, RF can certainly find its way into the automation and create hovac, especially if the broadcast engineer is not on his/her toes and flat-line's an AM transmitter. It splatters crap all over the place.
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-27-2003, 10:23 AM:
 
Although this is a single machine set-up, the automation does have the interlock capability. Don't know WHY it would ever get used but it's there. [Wink]

Here's the puzzler:
Our stage lighting is controlled by a solid state dimmer system. (Who doesn't, nowadays?) Strand Model CD-80sv, to be exact. There is a processor module in the base of the dimmer rack that looks similar to a SDDS, processor module. Essentially a circuit board about a foot square with modular connectors on the back and a display/control panel on the front.

The other day, half the lights on the stage started flashing. The system has two dimmer racks, each with 96 dimmers in each. (There are 192 circuits, total. Dimmer-per-circuit. 2.4K watts max. per dimmer.) Circuits 97 through 192 are flashing.

I ran down to the "crypt" in the basement where the dimmer racks are and I find the right hand rack flashing into "panic mode". (When the electronic processor fails all the lights are supposed to come on. Somebody's idea of a safety measure, I guess.)
The processor in that rack was cycling on and off, thus the flashing. After testing and troubleshooting we determined that the module had bit the dust and needed repair/replacement.

That's all done, now. The lights are working as normal. Good thing! We have a show tonight! [Eek!]

BUT...

Don't you think it's funny that the processor for the lights should die right about the same time the projector starts to act up? [Confused]
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-27-2003, 12:52 PM:
 
It is possible you have had a lightning strike nearby producing a nasty spike on the lines
In your dimmers theat module is the interface from the console (which is often a DMX deriviative) to generating the gate pule for each SSR block in the dimmer modules.
I always felt that when they gave up discrete fireing cards per dimmer a lot of reliability went out the door
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-27-2003, 01:35 PM:
 
It also makes troubleshooting a whole lot more problematic. With individual controllers per dimmer, if there is a problem you just pull the dimmer module and swap them out. Though we have 192 circuits/dimmers its a rare event when we don't have at least 2 or 3 modules not in use.

The main power comes into the building through the distro panel and out to the individual places. The lights go through their own transformer and out through a 600 amp distro. The projector's power goes through its own isolated 75 KVA transformer into a distro panel and up into the booth. Usually, the projector is turned off at the local breaker panel.

It's hard to imagine that a strike would have affected both the lights and projector but not touched the light console (Strand 520i) or the sound board (Mackie 32 X 8) or the sound equipment in the booth. (Peavy Media Matrix)

On the other hand I think we just have some really "dirty" power lines here. I have spoken to people in the maintenance department and elsewhere that have told me this. When we have sound companies come in for a show, they can't run their snake down the Stage Left side of the auditorium because they will pick up butt-loads of 60 cycle hum and interference. (We have to have them snake it under the seats unless they have a well-shielded snake.)

We have always had a hell of a time with mic lines picking up 60 cycle. Don't even get me started on wireless! We've had the crappiest luck with wireless mics in this building!

Sometimes, I just think we have an electromgnetic spectre loose in our building! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-27-2003, 04:42 PM:
 
I've had strikes before where a lot of equipment has been damaged and a Mackie board survived, so who knows.

As for your wireless mics, have you tried placing the receivers on the stage and turning the squelch down as low as possible?
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-27-2003, 05:00 PM:
 
The receivers are usually kept just offstage. Usually Stg. Right. With a 45 foot proscenium, it's unusual that a transmitter would be more than 50 feet from the receiver.

We've had a lot better luck with 800 MHz mics than we have had with other ones. (VHF?). One show we had a continuous "Thump!... Thump!" sound in the mic that I couldn't get rid of. Even changing the batteries didn't cure it. Had to go on backup wired mic.
The next morning when I came to work I got the mic out, turned it on and left it on stage all day. Not a peep came out of it that shouldn't have. I left it there until the battery ran dead.

People were screaming at ME for not fixing the problem but what could I do? Go to backup mic, right? That's what I did!

As far as I'm concerned, the best kind of wireless mic is the kind you PLUG IN!

What I really want to do is get a WinRadio or something like that and set it to sweep the hall for a long time, like 24 hours, and see what's going on in the radio spectrum. I'm willing to bet that I'd find some really strange things.
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-27-2003, 07:36 PM:
 
Randy, not at all! Also, Gordon might be on target, too. I would still believe that some electronic device has established communication with your dimmer. That has been known to happen. Triacs like to talk to each other, especially if they are on the same phase of power, and if they are to close to each other in physical distance.

The CPU of the automation might "beat" with the Triac, and a BFO might be triggering something else. I have seen it happen - not frequently, but I have seen it happen. Troubles like that can drive you stark-raving-sterile-assed NUTS while troubleshooting! [Mad]
 
Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 02-28-2003, 01:06 AM:
 
Look, this thing worked before right, (for some time I assume)? Something screwed up. Take it one step at a time and logically track it down, via;

verify - Verify that the problem still exists. It doesnt matter what you saw (or think you saw) before, verify that the problem STILL exists.

Define - Under what set of conditions does this problem occur? (For example in your case, if you were to temporarily switch the up/down dimmer wires going into the automaiton, and maybe run a print through (with no one in the auditorium), and see if your lights now came up during a show, this would be a clue that the automation's program running (or not) had nothing to do with the situation.

Isolate - Keep up the above step until you can come down to a CERTAIN set of conditions under which this problem will happen.

Cure - Find the most likely culprits and, either by substitution, repair, or replacement, solve the problem.

But hell man, I don't have to tell you this, you're a technician!

Fun ain't it? [Smile] [thumbsup]
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-28-2003, 12:51 PM:
 
Most of my problems with tracking down the problem are because I am no longer just a projectionist/technician. I have three auditoriums to run... lights... sound... staging. Plus I have to take care of the movies and do other bullshit tasks.

I feel pretty certain that it's the automation acting up on its own. As soon as I can get up there again I think I'll do the old switcheroo on the wires and see if that does make the lights go up instead of down. (Good idea, actually!)

Most weeks, I only have Tuesdays and Wednesdays to work on the films. If they come in earlier, I can work on them as soon as Monday. Still, on occasion, I have had only Wednesdays to work. This week, the first half of my print showed up. Fed-Ex LOST the other half! I spend the morning on the phone with them screaming and yelling at them to find my damn film.

Truth: Running movies is sort of a respite from the rest of my responsibilities here! Just being able to go up to the booth and work on a movie all by myself and not be bothered is one of the (few) simple pleasures of life. Okay, I like workig on the light system too. Programming the board for a show is fun but there are other people who can do that too. I have a Work Study student who is capable of running shows and breaking down films but he's not experienced enough to take over completely. Being the only one who REALLY knows how to do a job gives you a certain "Don't fuck with me when I'm working" status sometimes.
I just wish I could do it more, sometimes.
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-09-2003, 07:21 AM:
 
Sounds like "Overtime," Randy. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-12-2003, 10:35 PM:
 
Problem solved!

Thanks to Larry @ Comp. Eng.! [Smile]

The other day, just before our big show (Sing Along Sound of Music) I happened to be standing right there when the thing started acting up in a big way. It WAS the cue detector and it pretty much went "kaput" all at once.

Up till this point it was just an intermittent problem. Only happened once in a while. Recently it was happening once or twice per day. Up to this point I was unable to tell for sure because I was not right there to see it happen.

Just the other day, I was sitting in the booth building a print and the thing just started acting up like crazy. There was no way we would be able to run a show like that. I just removed the cue detector all together and operated the projector manually, without cues. (Still activated the automation's START button so we had the film detector/failsafe working.)

Larry at Component Engineering was good enough to send us a module just this past Friday, last thing before closing. We got the package today. (UPS lost it for a day!)

It took, literally, one minute to install and test. Once it was in we were as good as new!

Thank you all for your advice!

Thank you Larry, for your quick action and great service!
You guys kick ass and take names! [Big Grin]
 




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