Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Loud Movies Could Damage Hearing

This is topic Loud Movies Could Damage Hearing in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004591

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 02-22-2003, 11:48 AM:

here

Loud Movies Could Damage Hearing

Some Movies Register Over 96 Decibels

POSTED: 6:40 p.m. CST February 20, 2003
UPDATED: 11:21 a.m. CST February 21, 2003

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. -- If you've ever gone to the movies and thought the volume was
too loud, doctors say you might be right. An NBC13 investigation proves the sound levels in many movie theaters could be doing damage to your ears. Exhilarating, action-packed thriller movies are turbo-charged with ear-piercing sound effects. Most moviegoers NBC13 talked to say the volume in motion picture theaters is their biggest complaint about a trip to the cinema. "Because sometimes when you leave the movie, you can still hear it in your ears," said Flame Porter. "You just have a headache. They're just too loud and there's no way you can control the volume," said John Ray. "You've paid your money. If you're going to watch the movie, you're going to sit there and endure it." But enduring it could mean medical damage to your ears. To prove it, NCB13's Scott Mauldin took a store-bought decibel meter to the movies and put sound to the test. But before going to the movies, NBC13 checked some sounds you may hear every day. In a crowded restaurant, the amateur decibel meter peaked around 86 -- close to a 90-decibel warning from most hearing doctors but still in the safe zone. At the airport, the roar of an airplane topped out louder than 96-decibles from where we stood. Doctors say long-term exposure to that noise can hurt your ears. With the decibel meter on the hood of a car, every blast of the car alarm rated at 96 and up, considered unhealthy. To know if sounds are damaging your ears, doctors consider the loudness level and length of time you hear high volumes. Exposure to anything 90-decibels or greater becomes harmful for eight hours or more. "Once you get to a point where you go up in loudness, that time continues to half," said Dr. Dennis Pappas Jr. "In other words, once you get to 95 decibels, you can only be safe for four hours. Once you get to 100, it's going to be two hours." At the newest James Bond film, ear-piercing sounds from explosions to gunfire spiked our meter in parts of the film. The needle jumped constantly -- 96 decibels and higher several seconds at a time. It was as loud as the roaring jet engine at the airport. A different theater and a different show, Al Pacino's new thriller "The Recruit" barely budged the sound meter above unhealthy levels. During one chase scene the needle bounced up to 94 -- only four points over our doctor's warning. At a third movie, "Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers," sound effects in parts of the fantasy film left the meter jumping over 96 and up. Pappas says the sound check proves high volume in movie theaters could contribute to hearing damage. "I would say so. If you feel like you have to cover your ears because the sound is so noisy, then I think that would definitely be too loud," Pappas said. "A lot of what you feel though is a bass sound and that's something that might not damage your hearing." Pappas says if you feel like covering your ears, don't be shy -- it could make the difference between damage to your hearing and long-term protection. The volume at movies may be different each time the film is run and employees in some theaters check the loudness with sound meters, following medical guidelines for volume. Managers at every movie theater NBC13 visited said customers can always ask to have the volume adjusted.

Copyright 2003 by NBC13.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be
published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-22-2003, 12:47 PM:

That assessment is true. Here is a chart on "A" weight levels:

90db = maximum duration per day = 8 hours.
92db = maximum duration per day = 6 hours.
95db = maximum duration per day = 4 hours.
97db = maximum duration per day = 3 hours.
100db = maximum duration per day = 2 hours.
102db = maximum duration per day = 1.5 hours.
105db = maximum duration per day = 1 hour
110db = maximum duration per day = 30 minutes.
115db = maximum duration per day = 15 minutes or less.

I might add this: The figures are total durations over a 24 hour period. As an example, if you hear bursts of 115db lasting one minute each 15 times over a 24 hour period, the limit has been reached. Then, blend in the other sounds you hear over the same period and calculate it out. It won't take very long...

The start of unsafe levels actually begins at 90db. Now you know, so please watch your ears.

I have worked around military aircraft for many years. A typical aircraft turbine engine at full power can exceed 120db. My hearing starts to drop off in the mid-range, and drops off to a point that I cannot hear anything above 12khz. I have been around too many turbine engines.

Young people are even worse. They listen to their 2-gigawatt car stereos, and they seem to be practically deaf when you talk to them. They just don't know how bad high sound levels are damaging their ears.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 02-22-2003, 01:00 PM:

There is some truth in that, but remember those durations refer to continuous exposure.
Now some movies are quite loud over extended periods of time but that is rather rare. Most spectacular movies make very good use of judiciously applied loudness.
We all know this problem and we all know that there are always people who complain even if you run the movie at very low levels.
The main problem is the dynamics, the difference between loud and soft. Most people do not know or have a feeling for dynamics because their TV sets, car radios, all the music and noise that is continuosly around in supermarkets, elevators etc. have no dynamic.
Many people trash their hearing with excessive loudness in headphones, especially the ones that are stuck right in the ear.
Sure, we have to be careful with our hearing but I think the movies are not as dangerous as it sounds here.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-22-2003, 01:02 PM:

I think that I would be able to take the article more seriously if they had used a high-quality calibrated meter, rather than the $30 Radio Shack model that they probably used.

The basic point (that loud sounds are bad for one's hearing) is valid, but most movies don't have sustained loud noises--only occasional gunshots, explosions, etc.

I tend to think that there are more deserving targets for complaints about excessive noise levels than properly calibrated theatres running films at fader settings of "7" or lower.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-22-2003, 01:10 PM:

Michael, I respectfully disagree about the continous exposure thing. According to info I received while in the US Navy, it is a "total exposure" thing over a 24 hour period.

If someone will cite an official document about this being a "continous exposure," I'll graciously stand corrected.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-22-2003, 01:27 PM:

Scott: Those Radio Shack SPL meters are highly regarded -- at least, in some circles. For instance, according to my tech, they were included as part of the original THX kit.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-22-2003, 01:51 PM:

The meter speced by THX is a CEL not radio scrap

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-22-2003, 03:03 PM:

These theaters where people feel the need to "cover their ears" is almost always from some brainless wonder tech who is rolling off the bass and doing a sloppy job of EQing. Even peaks of 80db in one of those kind of auditoriums will give me a headache and hurt my ears within 10 minutes. There should be more differentiation, but we're talking about journalists here who don't really understand and are just looking for another shock news story. The freqencies has a lot to do with it. This is why I am firmly against anyone who EQs an auditorium and then walks away from the job without even bothering to listen to what they just did. Regardless, I'm betting the news reporter got the idea for the story from going to a typical rushed job multiplex theater where the sound level was adjusted for the feature and left to blow people's heads off during the trailers.

Paul, I couldn't agree more about kids with headphones and those stupid car sound systems. Like Scott though, there are so many more deserving targets for this article. (BTW, I can guarantee you that movie you watched in Dallas went well over 100db in peaks.)

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 02-22-2003, 03:37 PM:

quote:
According to info I received while in the US Navy, it is a "total exposure" thing over a 24 hour period.

Could also be over a period of 24 hours. I am not sure, I thought I had read that it meant continuous exposure.
Anyway, if you watch a really loud movie you won`t be exposed to the high levels for 2 hours without interruption, and you don`t watch loud movies all day without any breaks.

I am a very aural person so I pay attention to my hearing very much. But I also like to watch movies full steam ahead, and it doesn`t seem to have affected my hearing negatively. I took a hearing test recently because I had a vicious middle ear infection and had feared that it might have caused some harm to my hearing. After the test the doctor said my ears were still so good I that I could be a circus act.
I just wonder about the hearing damage you describe. I would have thought that the Navy would have enough safety precautions to avoid permanent hearing damage to personnel.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 02-22-2003, 04:17 PM:

Having been in the military I would be very suspect of safety information from ANY military source. Protecting you from anything that will not result in your death or physical disablement is of little interest to the brass.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-22-2003, 04:38 PM:

quote:
The meter speced by THX is a CEL not radio scrap

I don't disbelieve you. That is probably the current THX spec for an SPL meter, but I said that the Radio Shack meter was part of the original THX kit. So says my tech who was in the very first class held at the Lucasfilm ranch back in the early 1980s.

[ 02-22-2003, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: Manny Knowles ]

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-22-2003, 04:59 PM:

Bill, with all respect, I highly disagree!!! I think that is your personal opinion, and possibly you were a disgruntled ex-military man.

I spent 22 years in the United States Navy, and I can tell you we were very cautious and concerned about injuries occurring to our personnel. Many of people have been severely disciplined in safety violations, and in some cases, faced a courts-martial board. The military spends thousands of dollars training individuals to perform their duties, and cannot afford to have that all go down the drain by loss of personnel due to injuries and life.

Michael, the US Navy does....as well as other branches of the armed forces in this country.

Our military is very concerned about noise levels. While a military person is on the flight line or in the area of aircraft engines running, (both recips and turbines), ear protection must be worn. The military provides high quality war protection devices.

Civilian airports also require ear protection in high noise enviroments.

Just for the heck of it, I took my Handy Dandy Radio Smack sound pressure meter to measure the intermittant pull-down and loop noise. I am running Simplex XL machines, (only 3 at present) and the "A" weighted noise 1 inch from the intermittant sprocket measured 105db SPL, the other came up with 102db SPL, and the third came up with 100db SPL.

Much more nosier that I orginally thought. Maybe some of you should try that, just for giggles. [Smile]

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 02-22-2003, 05:05 PM:

quote:
The military provides high quality war protection devices.

So if you wear these, you are protected from war?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-22-2003, 05:08 PM:

They're in the business of protecting from war so I would expect nothing less!

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-22-2003, 05:09 PM:

Michael, just the "Booms" [Big Grin]

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 02-22-2003, 05:11 PM:

The thing that was only briefly touched on, which the Dr. mentioned, was the fact that most of those level readings were likely from the subs.

I sent them an email saying, if they really want to be concerned with loss of the public's hearing, they should take their meter to a concert stadium. Those are often well beyond the threshold of pain.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-22-2003, 06:31 PM:

I'm just glad the media is preoccupied with other news right now (impending war, the shuttle disaster, the Rhode Island night club fire, etc.) or else they'd latch onto that story and blow it all out of proportion, like they did with the popcorn thing a few years ago.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-22-2003, 06:38 PM:

quote:
like they did with the popcorn thing a few years ago.

Yikes! This certainly WAS a dark period. I'm glad we were able to switch back eventually. But that's another topic!

Posted by Michael Gonzalez (Member # 593) on 02-22-2003, 07:13 PM:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
like they did with the popcorn thing a few years ago.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So first popcorn, then sound, what does everyone think is going to be next?

My vote is the strobe effect that is being used in a lot of films lately causing seizures. I had one customer complain that he had to almost leave Daredevil.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-22-2003, 07:36 PM:

I thought I would come back and give you the results of a couple of car stereos two of the kids here at the theatre have. One of the kids is 17, and the other is 18. We went out to their cars, and they turned on their CD players to see what kind of a reading we could get. I asked them to turn it up to the level they normally listen to.

The results: One peaked at 96db SPL on the "A" scale, and the "C" scale peaked at about 106 db SPL. This car was the one the 17 year-old was driving. He has a nice rich low end on his stereo.

The other kid (the 18-year old) measured 106db SPL "A" scale. I didn't even bother to check the "C" scale.

After we finished, we had a little discussion, and both admitted in a blank gaze that "They just didn't know" how high the SPL was. My ears are still ringing from the 106db level that was playing for about one minute.

[ 02-23-2003, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Paul G. Thompson ]

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-23-2003, 01:25 AM:

So do you think they are going to turn down their car systems now that they know?

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-23-2003, 11:24 AM:

Manny, I think at least one will, especially the 17 year old. He is a senior in high school, has a 4.0 GPA and addition to that, he already has two years of college credits towards a college degree. I have been told he has a pilot's license "in the bag." He knows what he wants in life, has a tremendous common sense, and knows how to conduct himself in a professional manner on the job and believes in "doing it right" the first time. He dresses well, and keeps himself well groomed at all times. As far as intelligence level is concerned, I have to say that young man is brilliant!

The 18-year old is a typical person, active in high school sports, likes to raise hell sometimes, and is interested in keeping his ears intact for a few more years. But, he'll probably sneak the volume level in his car up a few more notches as time goes on....most of them do. [Smile]

Both were extremely interested in the experiment, and we discussed various SPL levels and what the dangers of them are.

Management is very happy with both of these young men.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-23-2003, 11:36 AM:

In the mid-80s when we were mounting lots of big rock shows in our large theatre. Those shows didn't use the house sound system because these acts brought in their own (usually the same massive systems that they used in huge stadiums). The speaker stacks are set on the edge of the stage with some patrons sitting less than two feet away from them. The sound pressure close to the stacks would many times rise way above what most ear doctors agree is a safe level. Finally we decided to write a rider into our house contract that says the audio engineer must limit the house SPL so as not to go over 110db for more than 2 minutes at ANY frequence. The rider goes so far as to say that the House has the right, after we have informed the engineer that the sound pressure has risen to unsafe levels, if he does not reduce the harmful SPL, to disconnect the mains to the amp racks. This was about the same time that Van Halen bragged that he loved to make the ears of the audiences BLEED. (Correction Edit: That was a Todd Rungren quote, not good ole VH -- I don't want to be accused of slander. FA)

As Brad points out, EQ is extremely important when looking at the kind of sound pressure that hurts the ears. An unequalized room can sound uncomfortably loud even though a sound pressure meter might not show unusually high average levels. We took into consideration the fact that audio range of frequencies are not equally harmful. Low-end pressure will not damage the delicate components of the cochlea as do frequencies in the mid to high range. A searing 5khz at 100spl will do allot more damage more quickly than will a 50hz hum at the same level. Systems that have not been voiced are notorious for having uneven peaks in a variety of frequencies. And it must be noted that sound systems which are trucked in for a one or two night engagement are rarely eq-ed to the room they are playing in, making them a lot more dangerous than systems that are properly voiced. An overall level of an uneq-ed system may very well read safely on an SPL meter, but can still have very dangerous peaks in the "danger zone" of the most harmful frequencies -- mostly the frequencies in the human voice sensitivity range.

We also have both pyrotechnics and laser restrictions in our contract. After the recent Rhode Island and Chicago tragedies, it seem unthinkable that any theatre or venue where people congregate in any numbers, that safety concerns are not made the highest of priorities. We are particularly sensitive to any issue of safety because unfortunately and sadly, we lost 9 students in one of the colleges which is part of the City University of New York system when a panic ensued at a concert and the audience tried to exit the theatre thru an exit door that wouldn't open. People were crushed to death.

Any time safety issues are ignored or dismissed as bothersome annoyances, THAT's when the worst scenario will play itself out. Bleeding ears by sustained, dangerous SPLs, retinas burned by high wattage laser reflections, fires started by pyrotechnics....it's all out there waiting for carelessness or incompetence, or both.

Frank

[ 03-06-2003, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Frank Angel ]

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 02-23-2003, 07:14 PM:

I just noticed this in the Atlanta Sunday paper, in a little section called "The Vent". Anyone can phone-in or email a quick "vent" about anything they want, and the paper prints some of them.

"I went to the movies yesterday and now I know why it has been a year since the last time. I value my eardrums."

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 02-23-2003, 07:37 PM:

I lost the hearing on my right ear in the US Army, firing M-1 Garands and M-1 Carbines on a Texas firing range.

Back in those Berlin Airlift / Korean War years we were offered NO ear protection devices, nor advice. Some with previous firearm experience stuffed cotton in their ears (and Kotex pads in their shoulders to reduce recoil shock.) The persistant ringing was annoying, at times painful, but I didn't know until later that my hearing was affected, when I couldn't hear what was being said to me by speakers on my right side.

Now the military has learned from experience, especially from the Viennam (agent orange) and Desert Storm (chemical pollutants??) eras.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 02-23-2003, 08:58 PM:

Gerard, I agree about the hearing loss from firing small arms in the military. I too have lost some of my HF hearing in my right ear because of all the M-14, M-16, and 50-cal firing I did while in Vietnam. (Ummmm…maybe that's why when I tune theatres, everyone complains! HAhahahha J/K)

I agree that the Radio Shack ANALOG SPL meter is a great tool for establishing overall sound levels. The digital one is a POS. In the large format 870 and 1570 theatres, I would normally use a Linear-X RTA with six microphone positions to set the EQ curves in the theatre and then leave a color graphical print-out of the curves in the theatre documentation. For simulator rides, I would normally use a commercial exhibition-theatre-type system with 4 mic positions.

So many people are so uninformed about sound levels. Two quick examples:

One time in a contract negotiation meeting, I was called upon by the client to provide a sustained sound level of 130 dBC with a capability of peaks of 140. Whew, I finally convinced him that that was WAY too high. Not because I told him his patron's ears would bleed, but because of the extreme cost to provide that much amplification and speakers….. what a jerk.

The other one that comes to mind is some 10 years ago…my old Iwerks CEO thought he was an audio "expert". One time he was listening to a simulator ride I did and complained that the left screen speaker sounded 1 dB low (yes 1.0, I mean like someone can hear that!). So I "pretended" to adjust something and he yelled "Hold-it…that's perfect!" HAhahahahahah

>>> Phil

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-23-2003, 09:06 PM:

quote:
So I "pretended" to adjust something and he yelled "Hold-it…that's perfect!" HAhahahahahah

I've done that with quite a few bands. There's actually one musician that I leave a blank rail beside his and mark it instead of the actual rail. He always manages to sneak an adjustment or two (on the blank rail) and is completely happy with his adjustments. [Big Grin]

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-23-2003, 09:13 PM:

Michael, you got me on this one... [Big Grin]

quote:
The military provides high quality war protection devices.

Jeeze, I just discovered my typo error today. I have to admit, I was a little "hot under the collar" when I typed that post, and somehow, the typo got by me. Naturally, that word should have been "ear" instead of "war." [Eek!]

Brad, your sound system was so easy to listen to I didn't even think about what the SPL might have been.

The post about my experiment wth SPL's in the employee's car radios...The 17 year-old had a wonderful sound system in his car, and even at 96 db, it was easy to listen to. The bass response was smooth and pleasent.

The other person's car had nothing but mid range and high end, with a very shitty bass response. That 106 db was ear shattering, to say the least!!! [Big Grin]

Gerard, I went duck hunting one time while I had my 12 gauge double barrel shotgun, and I could not hit a bull in the ass with a Cello! (Edited for Michael... [Big Grin]

) So, I pulled out my .357 and blasted away all six rounds...and still missed the ducks! But, it took 3 days for my right ear to start sounding right. Luckly, there was no permanent damage done, according to the doctor. However, I can tell you it is a bitch to hear a low-key Edison Phonograph sound in that ear for those three days. It scared the crap out of me.

...And Phil, I have delt with jerks like that. It is very amusing what you can pull on them and get away with. [Smile]

[ 02-24-2003, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Paul G. Thompson ]

Posted by Chad Calpito (Member # 1562) on 02-23-2003, 09:29 PM:

I would have to agree with you Brad. Your points are totally agreeable. Another point, which you some what put in your response, is those loud car audio soundsystems. Those systems are a whole lot louder than in a theater.

I simply enjoy going to the movies, not just because a particular movie interests me, but, because the volume is perfect and loud, which does not bother me. But, as a projectionist, I do occassionally have to adjust the volume just a bit during the previews because the trailers are usually louder than the feature presentation. But, I re-adjust the volume for the movie back to it's normal level.

Chad

Posted by Don E. Nelson (Member # 1049) on 02-23-2003, 09:29 PM:

....could you guys speak up a little, I am a little hard of hearing these days. Too many loud movies have all but taken away my hearing above 17.5 Khz or could it be too many times sitting in the PA cabinets at Winterland in San Francisco, or maybe I am just getting old.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-23-2003, 09:39 PM:

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 02-23-2003, 09:49 PM:

GOD PAUL!

That was way over the "safe" OSHA limitations.... [Big Grin]

>>> Phil

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-23-2003, 10:21 PM:

SPL weighting curves are very important as they do take frequency weighting into account so a dbc or dba curve is an absolute measurment with that response taken into account

Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 02-24-2003, 11:46 AM:

(This will get a responce, and I know from who, If he reads it)

Forget M-16's, Car Stereo's and LOUD MOVIES.

I think I'm going deaf from sitting on my ass in cinema 3 bio 7 hours a day 6 feet from the projector doing those damned cross words that come in the paper that I read 'head to tail' instead of top and and tailing the new trailers.

Seriously though, Anyone else think with AirCon / Extraction / Projectors there might be an effect on your hearing?

Because several of our projection rooms require us to go through the lobby/foyer areas, an usher will say somethime to me while waiting for a film to to finish, and I will have have to get them to repeat it sometimes 3 times.

My actual hearing is fine, I have a unrestricted private pilot's licence, and being over 30 have to get a medical every year, each time I ask about my hearing and each time they say it's perfect. So I just don't get it.

Perhaps when I have been in my fav cinema 3 for TOO long the hearing has dulled, like when you've been in bright sunlight sneaking a smoke an the roof, then can't see a thing trying to thread up the next session. Luckily I can lace up with my eyes shut. But I still triple check when I can see again. [Smile]

Bill.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 02-24-2003, 03:16 PM:

quote:
I could not hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle!

Paul, I just wanted to let you know that since I play the bass myself, I am deeply offended by this shameless remark!
When will all this mindless and hateful bass bashing ever stop?

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-24-2003, 03:37 PM:

Actually, that phrase was coined by Admiral Nimitz years ago...

Tell you what I'll do for you, Michael. I'll change it to "Cello" - how's that?

[Big Grin]

Posted by Barry Martin (Member # 1376) on 02-24-2003, 06:12 PM:

Not that I am an expert on medical issues, but I do remember watching a documentary on hearing and how we hear, etc. Of course, we start "losing our hearing" from the day we are born. The tiny hair cells in the ear which are the main component in hearing die off everyday. Loud noises can damage cells faster, so the truth is there is no "safe" level. There is just "worse" damage, or "faster" damage. I would think the scales doctors use are just figured on average cell loss compared to the expected duration of perfect hearing. e.g. you have "X" cells to start with, lose "Y" cells per day and you will have good hearing for "Z" years. Kay, I'm starting to confuse myself now, so I'm going to shut up. [Confused]

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 02-25-2003, 12:08 PM:

A couple of years back, we discussed loud theatre sound here on F-T. I had a friend living here that was a professional rock guitar player. He was always aware of where the speakers on stage were placed. Plus, he always wore ear protection that I got him. We had discussions on theatre sound, and the feeling of wanting to sleep. I remember sleeping through most of "Return Of The Jedi" the first time that I saw it. I wasn't tired, but the constant blasting of sound made me sleepy. My friend had the same thoughts on loud sound.

My friend the rocker can play some ear-splitting licks with his guitar, but since he takes care of his ears, he can hear just about anything. I like to think that I had something to do with his continuing good hearing.

I work in the video duplicating business and listen to my Sony HSP-800, A, B sprinters hissing 12 hours a day. At first, I wore no protection. Soon, I noticed that I had problems hearing when I got home. Now, I wear ear plugs, and no longer have to raise the volume when I get home.

Guys, be good to your ears. They're the only ones you have!

Posted by Duncan Smith (Member # 1556) on 02-25-2003, 01:54 PM:

Intersting point raised earlier. I got myself one of those $30 radio shack SPL meters a few months ago for my home theatre line up. I brought it into work to lend to a colleague and while it was here I measured the SPL of the Century's here while running a show with the monitor turned off. It was 96 dB constantly, which is a bit worrying I guess. That was on a C weighted scale I think.

Posted by Don E. Nelson (Member # 1049) on 02-25-2003, 02:17 PM:

Paul,
I said I was hard of hearing, there's nothing wrong with my 20/15 vision.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-25-2003, 02:27 PM:

Oh. [Big Grin]

Posted by Chris Wootten (Member # 283) on 02-26-2003, 06:54 AM:

Well guys, I am currently IN the military (OZ) and the brass has only just discovered OH&S over the last couple of years. I get out age retired in 18 months. I have defective hearing due to the crap hearing protection I was issued while refueling A/c with APU's operating 10 feet away. I get really annoyed when I attend a cinema and the volume has been turned unnecessarily too loud. It spoils the whole experience. [Confused]

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 07-15-2005, 10:42 AM:

It has been 870 days since the last post.

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-15-2005, 10:42 AM:

The US navy play there LFA at 240db, not good for marine life if you all get my meaning, however with the Odeon screen #1 Westover Road Bournemouth, with its new DTS XD-10 and “Batman Begins” in poor sounding with Altec A4 too bright no sub bass and too bright poor surrounds from piss poor positioning of JBL 8330 too bright and watching the SPL at close to 100dba weighting too bright and very stupid projectionists if you ask me clearly don’t know about safety issues.

So won’t be going there until there get it correctly done, god dame donkeys….

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-15-2005, 12:06 PM:

Andy are you trying to set the record for bringing back old topics [Smile]

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-15-2005, 01:59 PM:

Sorry Gordon I was just going though the “Film-Tech” archival catalogue and I have too say, being out of the game for a few years there is some incredible reading far better than any other home cinema forum, well done “Brad,” again high numbers good looking site, universally informative throughout for the projectionist and totally indispensable….

Andy

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 07-15-2005, 02:11 PM:

quote: Andy Summers
The US navy play there LFA at 240db

What is LFA, is that large format or something? If so what the hell are they playing it almost twice as loud as a jet engine?

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-15-2005, 06:16 PM:

LFA, Low Frequency Active Sonar….

http://www.bluedolphin.org/News/usnavy.html

Now I think we have met are match with the navy boys aye, aye captain…..

So I’ve also heard that THX can recreate the sound of an atomic bomb KABOOM, though I’m not sure if someone as been taking something, however I like some to expand the logic of the mind….

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-16-2005, 06:03 PM:

A jet engine is 140 dB. Twice as loud is 143 dB.
So a 240 dB sound would be... 10^((240-140)/10) = 10^10 = 10,000,000,000 = 10 billion times louder.

Whoa [uhoh]

.

--jhawk

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-17-2005, 10:06 PM:

quote: Andy Summers
I’ve also heard that THX can recreate the sound of an atomic bomb KABOOM

Hmmm... Let's see...

On one hand we have a couple dozen circles of paper, metal and plastic 14 inches in diameter.

On the other hand, we have a megaton nuke-you-ler bomb which literally creates a hole in the atmosphere hundreds of meters in diameter and creates temperatures that come close to those found on the surface of the sun.

Which one would be louder?

Sure. In an enclosed space a sound system could produce some mighty loud sounds but the sound of a nuclear blast is in a completely different ballpark. You're talking about moving gi-mongous amounts of air!

Try taking an arbitrary size volume of air... say, 10 cubic meters (10m = 32 ft. + some fraction)... then move it some arbitrary distance... say 10 meters to the left... in just one second. Heck! Zaphod Beeblebrot would have a tough time doing that! [Wink]

I imagine a good size atomic bomb would be orders of magnitude larger than that!

I'm pretty much making up these numbers but the concept I'm trying to put into your mind is just how large a scale you're asking Uncle George to work at!

Now, do you think a THX system (or any system) can recreate that? If it could, don't you think it would KILL anybody who tried to listen to it?

You want to hear something LOUD?! I mean REALLY FUCKING LOUD?! Get yourself down to Cape Canaveral the next time they launch the space shuttle! I'm told it's so loud it can't actually be measured. It's something that's FELT more than it's actually heard!

But you can't go to the public viewing area that's 10 miles away from the launch. That's for pussies! You have to get yourself into the VIP area! It's only about 3 miles from the pad! That's where the REAL MEN go! [thumbsup]

I have read about the "sound" of a shuttle launch and I know people who have seen one but I haven't done it yet. Seeing a shuttle going up is on my top-5 list of things I have to do before I die.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 07-17-2005, 10:22 PM:

On an interview once in Melbourne, FL which is 25 miles or so from Cape Canaveral, they told me that in the first shuttle launch back in 1981, the vibration was cracking houses and breaking windows in town. It was after that when NASA added the water spray at the bottom of the launch pad to absorb some of the energy.

To the topic of discussion, I'm sure a reproduced nuclear explosion sound (or anything close) would destroy your inner ear at the very least.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-17-2005, 10:56 PM:

A really good (assuming "good" = loud) sound system could produce a sound that the listener imagines to be the sound of a nuke. A really, really "good" system could even produce sounds that closely mimic the sound of a nuke, even to the point of making the listener's ears bleed.

But, I agree with Lyle. The "real" sound of a nuke would do nasty things to the listener... Like liquify the brain! [Big Grin]

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-18-2005, 12:04 AM:

Here's the last really loud thing I encountered, yesterday when leaving the Bricktown area next to downtown Oklahoma City.

Trust me, I've never heard anything in a movie theater quite as loud as a set of air horns on a locomotive -especially when the thing is slowly crossing right in front of your vehicle. I took that photo at one point when the train's horns weren't sustaining a long skull rattling honk.

Granted, I've heard some piercing noises in some theaters -probably where the EQ was not properly set. However, I think a lot of folks get dynamics and loudness confused. The mourned GCC Northpark #1 theater in Dallas was brought up in another thread. That theater had an excellent sounding sound system. But it had the power to startle the crap out of most audience members. I remember this moment in "Jurassic Park" where a baby raptor scene cuts hard to the feeding pen scene -punctuated with a big raptor scream. I saw one fellow jump bad enough his straw flew out of his drink cup. But I don't think that burst of audio was loud enough to damage your hearing.

For loud thrills here in Lawton, try hanging out at the south end of the air field aboard Fort Sill. C5 Galaxy transports from Altus Air Force Base do touch and go operations there on a regular basis. The scream of those jet engines and the deep bass give the C5 a distinct sonic character all its own.

Posted by Chase Hanson (Member # 2779) on 07-18-2005, 01:51 AM:

quote: Randy Stankey
Now, do you think a THX system (or any system) can recreate that? If it could, don't you think it would KILL anybody who tried to listen to it?

Yes...it can REcreate the equivilant waveform after it has traveled a sufficient enough distance (read: lost enough energy) to be audible.

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-18-2005, 06:27 AM:

Interesting guys that the issues surrounding this thread have some truths to them, well maybe it’s the approximation of the sound of an artificial sound that as been put together.

Has for the “Space Shuttle” she is loud more felt is true, in “Space & Air magazine” May or June issue 1981 I read the review and the comments stating that the ground was vibrating from the 3 mile distance was quite frilling, when she’s about a few miles up she pounds you in the chest, and the raw static sound of her main engines and the “SRB Solid Rocket Boosters” is very dynamic.

On a science program called “Space” hosted by “Sam Neil” of “Jurassic Park” fame, one of the real life Astronaut’s “Story Musgrave” says it is 130db in the cockpit of the “Space Shuttle” on the outside it’s completely different.

It’s said the Might “Saturn V!” could power “New York” for about 30 minutes to1 hour, hell that’s’ a whole lot of power she has.

As for films like “The Shadow Makers” AKA “Fat Man and Little Boy” the creation of the “Atomic Bomb” which I have on DVD as I didn’t get to see this at the cinema the mix hear as some possible potentials to explore as for making the testing of the “Gadget” sounding real and eventful of that point in time, as the sound wave will be travelling at god knows how many Miles Per Hour, sound is 1.138 Per Sec so would doubling the subwoofers to a really crazy amount.

I’m talking science hear, not that I know whole lot about science, only what I read makes for interesting reading, but some of you sound like you have PhDs in audio and a lot of other hyper physics, so we have to think like children as children are more curious and as we get older we tend not to explore that much.

So without doing this test in practice, with a lot of trial and errors involved will make good science how many foot pounds is the “Space Shuttle” how many foot pounds is an “Atomic Bomb” these questions I like answered so who is crazy enough hear to stick in the ear plugs and place the ear defenders on and conduct these experiments….

I’m crazy but I don’t have enough “JBL” Subwoofers to do this maybe get the PA guy to drop off some 20 JBL 4645B subwoofers with amplifiers as well, set this beast up and see what can be achieved in the cinema getting the air to blow out of the air duct ports only happens from 40Hz downwards there about and dropping down into the infersSonics register.

I mean at what frequency is wind, you stand outside and the wind blows against you, it’s uniform excellence being felt as herd as well, but if you stick in ear plugs along with ear defenders on, to filter out as much of the directional sound as possible, this unseen and more felt pressure pressing on you sometimes knocking you over, as for the SPL of this natural Phenomenal Experience, it’s variables are always changing.

I should or perhaps maybe someone else can start something new thread in the “Afterlife” section about this as there are so many unanswered questions, and I like to know, as I’m sure some of you guys as well would like to know the answers to the great powerful mystery of the cinema sound experience to make this truly wholesome as humanly as possible.

Wait on there a moment, I’m getting a thought, yes I’m getting a thought, and I’ve read that different frequencies been sent to different subwoofers can make it sound very good, like multiples of subwoofers say 10 for the 20 subs for the frequencies from 7Hz or 10Hz going upwards to 20Hz, then another 20 subs for the frequencies from 20Hz to 50Hz, and lastly 20 more for frequencies from 50Hz to 80Hz, and having this all placed below the screen and depending on space that I know is limited in parts but some alterations will have to be made, so with everything in place which frequency section do you assign to play 10Hz to 20Hz the bottom section the middle section or the top part of this 80 piece monster cinema sub bass array.

Now I have played around with the infersSonics that have frequencies around 4hz 8Hz and 16Hz it’s more air blowing out of the JBL 4645 and though it’s very difficult to hear this at close range by placing the front of my body against the three air duct ports it’s pressure is pressing on me, only it’s uniform excellence is not how it would or should be in real life, there is a window leading to the kitchen from the home cinema room, with a door in-between this, now if I open the door the window in the kitchen rattles, I mean rattles big time due to the wave length of the frequency and the SPL level of it too.

So if I where to add say 4 to 7 more subwoofers I can say goodbye to the kitchen window, as it will crack or drop out of it’s frame, not that I’m going to practice this method as I like the window to remain intact, the infersSonics require lots of amplifier power and play it back and on just 1 sub alone and filtering out the other frequencies above 20Hz the maximum number required hear, for argument sakes say it’s 70db at 3meters then around 19 more subs it should be 127db there about, so we need to be safe and then reduce this level to around 110db max, but what is this going to feel like sat at the front row, to the middle and the back row as well as sides too.

Maybe place subs around the cinema, yes this is very costly as is many other factors like will this make this film a big hit in theatre admission sales, is the chance wroth the risk.

I know you guys have probably got better fish to fry, as I do as well but I like to try this out, I mean nothing new is been said hear, but if a cinema is going to break new grounds with the Dolby the DTS and the SDDS then it has to be done with Fierce conviction.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-18-2005, 01:10 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Trust me, I've never heard anything in a movie theater quite as loud as a set of air horns on a locomotive

That's for sure. The BNSF tracks (complete with crossing) are one block away from our theatre and even with all of the doors closed, it's still sometimes possible to hear the train whistle during quiet parts of a movie. It drives me nuts, but people around here have learned to live with it since the railroad is a big chunk of our economy. (I do feel sorry for the motel on the other side of the tracks!)

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-18-2005, 05:39 PM:

G.E. Transportation Systems, where they build locomotives is headquartered in Erie.

Some guys from G.E. used to go to the local professional hockey games. (Erie Otters -- They otter get a better name for the hockey team!)

They brought the horn off a locomotive and set it up behind the home team's goal. They would sound off when the home team scored. It was pretty darned loud, although I'm sure it wasn't as loud as it could have been. I never looked at it closely but I think they just hooked it up to a regular old run-of-the-mill air compressor.

They don't do it anymore. I guess too many people complained.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 07-19-2005, 03:00 AM:

is andy summers a real person, or is he a composite of gordon mcleod and monte fullmer?

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-19-2005, 03:08 AM:

...and N2 I-30 BIG time....

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-19-2005, 07:37 AM:

As real as you are, and I’m staying to reflect myself on this wondrous site.

So you have difficulty in buying what I have said, well I’m not like the 99.999% of you I’m different and therefore special.

Today I had a thought of using a balloon & placing it over a SPL meter, inflating it where I would use it to measure sound pressure level, “WIND” the experiment is unique and will take some trial & error to get the results that I will be looking for.

Are bodies are mostly made up of water, and so I’ll make two different types of balloon SPL measuring techniques one will have water inside the balloon and this I very excited about so when I get the time this week and feeling healthy as well as I have been battling “psoriasis” for 23 years and it does ware me out.

So again the whole purposes of this test is, to see what the SPL levels are going to register at.

Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 07-19-2005, 09:16 AM:

quote: Andy Summers
I’m different and therefore special.

You are special.
Your'e good enough, smart enough, and gosh darnit, people like you. [Wink]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-20-2005, 08:24 PM:

Jeremy, all I know is...you've got a lot of balls. [Razz]

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 07-21-2005, 01:14 PM:

My long-time friend, video engineering mentor, and former ATSF locomotive engineer now railroad nut Bob Cadigan collects locomotive air horns, whistles, and chimes. He rigged up a Leslie Five Chime on another friend's truck just so we could take it out for a listen once in a while. With 90 pounds of air supplied it's rated at 125dB at 100' from the bells (five bells, sounding the first inversion of an A Major 7 chord). Very impressive sounding in the parking lot of the then Union 76 truck stop on Blue Diamond Road. From inside the cab it was great; outside the cab it was awesome. [Big Grin]

But yeah, ya gotta watch the SPL. I know my hearing is not what it once was after 20+ years of mixing live shows on the Las Vegas Strip and almost that many years flying small planes and working on airline ramps without headphones or hearing protection.

Some house mix position sound level warning signs seen over the years:

"If it's too loud, you're too old."

"Loud is better."

"It's not loud enough unless it ripples the fluid in your eyeballs."

"TAP in progress. Caution: High levels of pink noise and blue language present."

And from the best soundman Las Vegas ever heard, the legendary Dave Rogers:
"Dave Rogers, DdB, MM, CGS" (Doctor of Decibels, Master Mixer, Creator of Gorgeous Sound).

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-21-2005, 05:22 PM:

Cerwin-Vega's slogan used to be "Loud is beautiful...if it's clean"

[thumbsup]

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 07-21-2005, 06:56 PM:

quote:
ut yeah, ya gotta watch the SPL. I know my hearing is not what it once was after 20+ years of mixing live shows on the Las Vegas Strip and almost that many years flying small planes and working on airline ramps without headphones or hearing protection.

Some house mix position sound level warning signs seen over the years:

"If it's too loud, you're too old."

"Loud is better."

"It's not loud enough unless it ripples the fluid in your eyeballs."

"TAP in progress. Caution: High levels of pink noise and blue language present."

And from the best soundman Las Vegas ever heard, the legendary Dave Rogers:
"Dave Rogers, DdB, MM, CGS" (Doctor of Decibels, Master Mixer, Creator of Gorgeous Sound).

This is the kind of macho bullshit that has resulted in an entire generation with premature hearing loss. Every musician I know has hearing loss and most have tinitus.

SPL levels at rock concerts are completely out of hand - it's almost always beyond the threshold of pain. And you know what? It sounds like crap. When it's that loud, the mix turns to mush.

Ridiculous levels are largely the fault of sound mixers who think their ego is dependent on how loud they can make the sound. They also want to feel they have impact on the show, so instead of letting the musicians play with more impact, they drive up the levels. Also, whenever a particular instrument or voice needs to be heard, they ALWAYS drive up that level instead of mixing everything else lower.

I attended a show a few years back at the now defunct Bottom Line, which was a small 300 seat club. The Ed Palermo Big Band played with about 15 musicians on the stage, mostly horns. Every horn was mixed as if it was the soloist--we were blasted out of the club. I was furious because the sound mixer was some kid who was wearing a wool cap and HAD IT PULLED OVER HIS EARS!

Whatever happened to dynamic range?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-21-2005, 08:01 PM:

I absolutely agree. An occasional "sting" or sequence that is loud is fine...use the dynamic range of the system...a jet taking off is supposed to be loud...and eyelash flapping should not be.

Hearing a film should be comfortable and enjoyable. The Dolby loudness meter was actually a really great idea that has had limited application applied to trailers.

It should be give a bit more power in that a number established that if the trailer exceeds, contractually an exhibitor does not need to play.

Sooner or later, out meddling congress will feel the need to protect our ears and try to establish stupid limits like...though shall not exceed 90dB or some such nonsense (I saw that happen when I was in Jr. HS where they tried to apply that to Rock Bands...back when kids used to hear live ones instead of DJs). The problem isn't the overall level...it is the duration of the loud levels.

The Dolby meter takes that into account so that the "number" is based on how loud the film is over the length of the film. Thus you can have your Bombs explode and shake the place but you are going to have to balance that with some lower levels and if your whole film is bombing (like a war film) then your maximum level is going to have to be lower. You can't expose people to levels above 90 dB for hours and not expect to be causing hearing damage. Most every study I've seen and OSHA requirements specifies the loudness over a period of time. This really should be considered when a film is mixed. One really can't just turn the overall level down (which is what is being done in many theatres) that just crushes the dialog which never seems to be given prominance as it used to be when films were mixed better (in my opinion).

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 07-21-2005, 08:34 PM:

quote: Martin Brooks
Ridiculous levels are largely the fault of sound mixers who think their ego is dependent on how loud they can make the sound. They also want to feel they have impact on the show, so instead of letting the musicians play with more impact, they drive up the levels. Also, whenever a particular instrument or voice needs to be heard, they ALWAYS drive up that level instead of mixing everything else lower.

You are, of course, talking utter bollocks.

One of the most discussed topics amongst engineers is how to control stage volume so that the mix (and in particular, vocals) doesnt have to try and "get over" excessive stage volume.

As an extreme example, try
This link

My gig next week is mixing the local school's annual show. Same hall we show movies in on a saturday night, come to think of it. You think my goal is to see how many parents (of which I am one) complain its too loud?

Sound engineers generally are not that different to film-tech folks - they want to do the best show possible within the constraints they find themselves in. Sure theres idiots and the irresponsible, but they are the exceptions rather than the rule.

Anyway, back on topic - Ken Dibble did some excellent work in the 70s regarding "noise" exposure in discos, and why measurements intended for industrial use are not very applicable to music. Cant put my hand on the article at the moment, unfortunately, its filed somewhere, and I just cant quite recall where...

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 07-21-2005, 09:34 PM:

In my experience the "ego" about SPL was never with the house mixer. It was always with the act, or the producer, or the hotel entertainment director. You mixed it the way they wanted it or you stood in line down at 8th and Carson to collect your unemployment check. At that time I liked to eat (and pay rent, and fly, and go to school), so guess how I reacted to the order, "turn it up."

To bring this back to movie sound, in 1997 I attended a joint SMPTE/AES meeting at the AMPAS Samuel Goldwyn Theater in Beverly Hills, CA. The occasion was to hear John Eargle give a paper and to hear the then-new JBL tri-amped screen channels that had just been installed there. The movie used for the demo screening was Batman & Robin which was played back at a horrendously loud level, especially for those of us in the 4th row. Now I like loud as much as the next guy, but this was ridiculous. After the screening there was a short Q&A with the film's sound designer.

The first question up was, "Was it that loud on the mixdown stage?", which got a chuckle out of the audience. But the guy's proud response was quite telling of the attitude, "Oh no. On the mixdown stage it was MUCH louder!" Apparently Joel Schumacher likes things really loud. The designer joked that there should be a disclaimer, "If it's a Joel Schumacher film you don't want to sit in the front row."

So what's a sound pro to do? In my case I got tired of arguing against but ultimately mixing to what I thought were increasingly insane SPLs and finally quit that niche of the business altogether. Nobody was sad to see me go either. There will always be some young Turk looking for a chance to mix front-of-house or monitors or final mixdown to whatever SPLs the bosses want. Of course as a projectionist I can turn the fader down, as long as deaf bosses aren't around.

Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 1430) on 07-21-2005, 09:57 PM:

Long term noise exposure certainly does have dramatic effects on the human ear.

I spent many many hours in telephone switching centres in my previous career as a telephone techie.

Never really gave the noise much thought, neither did my fellow workers and in those days there was just nothing much written or studied in Occ Health circles on noise exposure.

At about age 50 I began to experience gradual bursts of mild tinitus which steadily got worse.

Was sort of attributed to the past exposure but was all rather grey as to just when where etc etc .

Besides the switching plant noise the areas I worked in often had their own power generating systems so frequently we would be in very hot and noisy engine rooms doing services whilst the other plants were running.

Ear muffs were not heard of and not used until many years later when we did manage to get a set or two. Then we discovered the fact that the screaming noise was almost totally wiped out and you could almost carry on normal conversations with fellow staff and you could quite easily hear the valve gear clatter. How peaceful things were then but by then the damage was well and truly done.

In the 1980's Occ Health became a more important issue and ear muffs became mandatory in all engine rooms but nothing was ever done for noise in the switching plant rooms which at peak times was quite loud and irritating to some. All that gear (crossbar ARF) has now been replaced by digital (AXE & System 12) switching sytems which are almost silent.

Interestingly almost ALL of my fellow workers now have some form of hearing damage be it tinitus or just overall loss of sensitivity... but we are all 65+ now so some drop off is to be expected.
As Occ Health concerns re hearing damage took hold they trotted out a very good 16mm film titled "Who Stole The Quiet Day". If you can ever source that one and have a look at it I think you will totally change the way in which you handle loud sound levels.
It is a very sobering film and explains the process of hearing damage which is the destruction of the fibre like nerve endings within our ears which are killed off by loud noise exposure.
They NEVER regrow and as you age others also die off so by the time you reach middle age your hearing is well and truly stuffed and on the way out.
I showed that film to both my teenage sons at the time and one who was a very active drummer in a small group took to wearing ear plugs whenever he played in the group much to the amusement to the others in the band. I think his hearing will survive better than some of the others in that group [thumbsup]

I now have a copy of that film in my collection and screen it whenever the subject of loud music/films arise in the film buff group I am involved in. It has had a very positive effect on some of those group members who used to be tempted to run the volume a bit on the high side.
At the outdoor I set the volume by means of the VU meters I have installed and do not rely totally upon them.
I frequently do a walk around at the rear of the auditorium observeing the sound levels myself and asking patrons if the sound is OK. I have found that if I have to strain to hear dialogue clearly then that is about just right for most towards the rear of the cinema. By that process I have been able to set the VU meters to reflect pretty well what should be normal for most.
I have walked out of some Complex cinemas when the sound was overly loud or very muffled (blown HF driver??)and got only a mere shrug of the shoulders at the Box Office if I complained.
I have even sat thru some Trade Shows with a finger stuffed in an ear to mitigate the very loud sound and when comparing notes with others afterwards found that they too disliked the sound levels.
Totally agree with Steve that the film is to be enjoyed and not destroyed by loud sound. Next time you feel tempted to wind up the wick a bit to show off the sound system be careful you may also be contributing to the ultimate destruction of your patrons hearing [Roll Eyes]

You might even get sued.
Lindsay

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-22-2005, 07:03 AM:

Well this is geting very interesting now guys.

quote:
________________________________________________________________
ut yeah, ya gotta watch the SPL. I know my hearing is not what it once was after 20+ years of mixing live shows on the Las Vegas Strip and almost that many years flying small planes and working on airline ramps without headphones or hearing protection.

Some house mix position sound level warning signs seen over the years:

"If it's too loud, you're too old."

"Loud is better."

"It's not loud enough unless it ripples the fluid in your eyeballs."

"TAP in progress. Caution: High levels of pink noise and blue language present."

And from the best soundman Las Vegas ever heard, the legendary Dave Rogers:
"Dave Rogers, DdB, MM, CGS" (Doctor of Decibels, Master Mixer, Creator of Gorgeous Sound).
________________________________________________________________

Who as got the time to produce a new white paper report on films being loud, I mean I have all ready read one that Dolby Labs produced back in the late 1990’s, as for Batman & Robin I have that on DVD and I have to agree its loud.

I’ll have to do a test with the for Batman films, with Batman begins coming out on DVD late in the year the very least early 2006, is the dialogue still matched for (85db) or as that changed and I haven’t noticed this change.

Well I’ll find out later, takes a little while for me to develop an idea on how I’m going to do this as listening to nearly close to 7 ½ hours is going to drive me Batty…

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-22-2005, 09:38 AM:

Andy said"Well I’ll find out later, takes a little while for me to develop an idea on how I’m going to do this as listening to nearly close to 7 ½ hours is going to drive me Batty… [rachel] "

Andy why the rachel pix she isn't batty maybe you are [Smile]

Years ago I did some screenings for a certain large format film and thought the track was unreasonable and said so and the sound engineer replied to my comment of the fact that any theatre playing this title would just turn the fader down and the rely was well the narration track is being recorded low enough that if you do it will be inaudable so there will be no choice

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-22-2005, 01:44 PM:

Well I have endured two “Batman” films so far and the results on DVD is good, Batman 1989 as a strange mix, with some centre sounds being placed on the main left and right, with around 6db difference with the centre channel mix.

However the dialogue was clearly reproduced and isolated with, “Vicky vale’s” scream at a comfortable (85dba) and with the Lucasfilm THX sound system reference 0db 85db SPL level on all channels with EQ applied to all 8 channels, this brightness on this mix on was unheard of.

Low end was something and I had to keep reminding myself this isn’t the Empire Leicester Square, or the once called Warner West End, but feeling the impacts of body punches with help from the Foley department is quite something, on chapter 7 / 25min 6sec a huge peak at 62Hz at 98dbc as “Batman” knocks one of the bad guys lights out.

And on chapter 16 / 1Hr 7 min 18 sec where “Batman” decides down onto four of the “Joker’s” men with an organ sound like low end rumble peaking at 40Hz 100dbc to be followed be a hail of gun fire shortly afterwards.

“Batwing” flying though the night, this is not as loud one may think, its more mid range and low end to it, with some cool music mixing hyping the tension on the showdown with the “Batman & the Joker” but as one showdown leads to another, the palms begin to sweat.

End credits, is soft sounding as was the opening peaking at 85db.

Conclusion, though this is only a basic report on my findings, I’ll watch “Batman” again in THX knowing it’s not going to be bright sounding, with lots of low end accompanying the films look and style…

“Batman Returns” report later with “Batman forever” and lastly “Batman & Robin” well I’ll see if the Re-EQ of the home Lucasfilm THX sound system, holds up and keeping the bright sounding “Armageddon” offender films at bay… [Smile]

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-22-2005, 05:51 PM:

After surviving the loudness’ of “Batman Forever” the opening credits where 6db louder than the “Batman” and “Batman Returns” LFE had to be reduced to prevent damage, this still played to realistic effectiveness, as my whole body was vibrating due too the aggressiveness of this mad mix.

116dbc SPL when the loud dynamics come in, soft sounds like voices where not realistically reproduced, but clear never the less, it as to be said “Batman Forever” is JBL Just Bloody Loud, while a lot of bass is on the three-screen channels and the split-surrounds giving a shacking effect that very few cinemas can do or achieve, except the THX and IMAX cinemas.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-22-2005, 06:20 PM:

Andy DVD playback at home one is sittin in the near field sound field and in a large theatre one is in the far field and as such the mix does change in some respects
anyway this is a film forum not home DVD forum so I don't worry about the DVD [Smile]

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-22-2005, 07:08 PM:

Hallo there

Gordon

That is very true, far field and near field, I was aware that, Gordon, your own opinion which do you think and feel is better far field or near field, and its not easy to grab something of the self like four Batman films, are let me rephrase that five Batman films.

So what did “Batman Begins” sound and feel like in the “IMAX” cinema where you work at, and more importantly what was the sound pressure level in the “IMAX” these facts I like to know please.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-23-2005, 08:38 AM:

We don't play any DMR product but we can maintain a contious SPL of 121dbc slow when we ran Rolling Stones at the Max

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-23-2005, 09:10 AM:

Hallo there

Gordon

Well that’s some satisfaction Gordon, WOW, what make and models loudspeakers are been used, oh and the technical specifications of course please.

The Sheridan IMAX on “Cyber World” produced a 110dbc when I monitored it with the SPL, and those “Sonics” are totally out of this world, is there and close up pictures of these beauties and technical specifications power handling etc, as they are three-way Low Mid and High, and the Sub Bass 8 stacked upon each other.

They say over 10.000 watts is used but that’s for headroom sound extension is it not.

So how many amplifiers are used for the installation.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-23-2005, 10:40 AM:

It is a classic Sonics 4 way system with approx 23,000 watts

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 07-23-2005, 12:27 PM:

quote: David Buckley
You are, of course, talking utter bollocks.

One of the most discussed topics amongst engineers is how to control stage volume so that the mix (and in particular, vocals) doesnt have to try and "get over" excessive stage volume.

Stage volume is not the issue -- at the shows I attend, there's a completely separate mix for the stage. The acts are generally behind the house sound, so they have no idea what it's like for the audience. (And for the record, although I haven't done a lot of rock band live mixing, I have been a recording engineer.) I have encouraged acts to get a radio mic and come out into the audience, so they can hear what it's actually like. Also, many (but certainly not all) musicians now wear hearing protection on stage. But one of the things I've also noticed is that the musicians who have hearing loss are constantly waving to the stage mixer to raise the level of their mic in the stage mix, especially when they're about to solo.

It's very simple: if you leave a show with ringing ears, you have damage. And if you have damage, it's TOO FREAKING LOUD. If you don't like that response, bring an SPL meter to a show. I guarantee you that most shows exceed U.S. OSHA regulations for factories. I'm amazed that there hasn't yet been a lawsuit in the U.S. by an employee of a club or concert hall who is claiming that their hearing has been damaged by the excessive levels.

quote: Paul Mayer
In my experience the "ego" about SPL was never with the house mixer. It was always with the act, or the producer, or the hotel entertainment director. You mixed it the way they wanted it or you stood in line down at 8th and Carson to collect your unemployment check. At that time I liked to eat (and pay rent, and fly, and go to school), so guess how I reacted to the order, "turn it up."

Yes, sometimes it's the house and I suppose sometimes it's the act, although as per the above, most of the time the act has no idea how it sounds in the audience. When I had complained to acts who appeared at the Bottom Line about the sound, they told me they had no control over the sound - it was a house decision. What was completely frustrating was that traditionally, the BL had great sound.

Also, in many shows I attend, the sound actually starts out okay. But as the show progresses, it gets louder and louder. That is not the act or the house. That is the engineer feeling like he should be doing something (or perhaps experiencing aural tedium or deafness) and pushing the levels up. I frequently watch the mixers during a show. They never leave well-enough alone.

As far as films are concerned, the only film in recent memory that I found too loud (and I may have had a particular sensitivity that day) were the fight scenes in Cinderella Man. I had to hold my ears for that one. There are still some occasional trailers that are too loud, but it's relatively rare in the last few years. In many cases, I find the sound of the trailers to be better than the feature.

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-23-2005, 12:44 PM:

Hallo there

All

Lets be nice ok, so Gordon, looks like Martin, is in disagreement with you, well that between you and him but, I’ll back you up, so “Sonics” the “IMAX” sound system is there a technical specifications on there “Sonics” sound system, has there is not enough fact, I say again fact on the specifications.

And pictures close up, pictures of the “Sonics” I do like them and I’ve heard about the “Ox!” just the “Sonics” if you can please…

Arr tasty sound system…

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 07-23-2005, 03:18 PM:

quote:Loud Movies Could Damage Hearing.

What [Wink]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-23-2005, 06:55 PM:

"I CAN'T HEAR THE MONITORS"....quote from a musician to the sound engineer and heard at EVERY sound check I have ever been at as either the sound engineer or the house guy listening to the act's sound guy during the sound check. It's the musicians who insist on deafening sound. Loud covers a lot of bad talent. I once was asked by a stage manager if I could do anything about a singer who just sounded aweful. "Yah," sez I, "I can turn off her mic." Actually, I take that back a bit. I think they really are insisting on intimidating stacks of speakers and racks and racks of amps sitting on stage so everyone can see what a big one they've got -- the deafeningly loud sound is only secondary. "I can't hear the monitors" is simply proof that they are already deaf and want to take the audience with them.

The house almost never pushes for hotter audio. Bigger sound systems cost more money; the house never wants to spend more money --you can take that to the bank. The act, on the other hand passes the system cost back to the house, so as far as they are concerned, it doesn't cost them to say they want 10 bins on stage or 100. They are the kids in the candy store and daddy is buying.

We are ALWAYS in tough and tumble with the "artistic directors" of acts where they want the sound louder and we are fighting tooth and nail to drop it back to reasonable levels. We have a sound pressure limit clause in the contract with anyone who books our facility. I have literally been caught between our house producer who books in dance companies for our World of Dance series. One very famous company's artistic director and I were setting levels during rehearsal. He is on headset telling me to bring it up another 3 points and then I am on the phone with the house producer saying, "What the hell is wrong with you, it's much too loud, pull it way back." "Yah, but....but..." And so it went until I refused to talk to either of them and told them to talk to each other and let me know when they've come up with a compromise.

At least with dance companies, our audience is older and they will complain when they find it too loud. With rock or pop acts, the audience is younger and like sheep, they will all sit ten feet in front of a jet engine if Britney Spears were performing on the wing.