Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: "We Ran It Wet"

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 02-22-2003, 04:28 PM:

In a conversation with a retired local newscaster he said that on important and just happened events shot on 16 mm film they "ran it wet". Did they actually run wet film or was he just saying they speeded up the processing and drying process? If wet, did it require special equipment? Did it damage the film? He got a call and had to leave before he could explain. Thanks.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-22-2003, 04:56 PM:

I've never heard that expression used in a literal sense but who knows.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-22-2003, 05:50 PM:

Some cases it was telecine'd wet

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 02-22-2003, 07:14 PM:

Just speculating here...
but, when I was working in TV (back in the early '70s), the newsguys would take the processed film, edit it (except for 'B' rolls, which we had to do), separate the cuts with leader film & send it in on one reel. We'd run the film through a comb filter & put the cuts, with the standard countdown we used, on tape (um.... dating me here... 2" quad!) in the order it was expected to run in the evening news.

Perhaps the saying refers to a less edited process where the film might be run directly 'on air'...?? It would be a way to get something on quickly, though without the pomp & procedure of normal operations.

We were running color, super 8 mm magstripe, though the other stations were running 16mm... B&W! [evil]

It was the first time I'd ever seen film get stored in a refrigerator!

Posted by Bill Carter (Member # 156) on 02-22-2003, 10:44 PM:

I've known of 16mm newsfilm literally being run wet. Remember that most stations had their own 16mm reversal processing in-house. For a late-breaking story, you could pull the film out right after the wash, skipping the forced air drying compartment of the processing machine. You might try to wipe some of the water off with a cloth as it wound onto the reel, if you had time. The film could be aired on the telecine while literally wet, if it meant the difference in getting the story on the air or not.

I've also heard of something even stranger...
In the B&W days, reversal film could be threaded through some processors (like the old Houston-Fearless) so as to skip the second developer steps and go right into the fixer, and pulled out of the machine as a NEGATIVE (with really wacky gamma). You then flipped the polarity switch on the film chain camera, which switched the camera to a negative image, and aired it that way. It was ugly, but it was considered better than letting a competing station get the pictures on the air first. You could get film on the air in about half the normal time that way.But that one was only done in extreme situations, where time was of the absolute essence, and where additional footage could be shot of the same scene for later air. That was necessary because the incompletely processed image would start fading away almost as soon as it came out of the machine.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 02-23-2003, 01:33 AM:

That's fascinating, Bill.
I remember us literally manhandling reels of 2" videotape within seconds of the evening news opening... but I never saw anything quite that urgent. Maybe our stations were too small. The news "crew" was actually on the air at 5, and our chief engineer was the only one that operated the film processor. You didn't want to be on his bad side back then, so they couldn't get too crazy. There'd be times where it was nuts in the control room for us, but by then they'd be primping in the news set.

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 02-23-2003, 06:25 AM:

I worked in TV in the mid-60's. Yes, we did run wet 16mm newsfilm. It was stuff that absolutely had to air on the local news. I was told that film in this condition could easily be damaged and would fade easily, since some processing steps were omitted. (I believe it was Ekatchrome reversal and the station had a film processing lab)

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 02-23-2003, 06:38 AM:

Eastman VNF is still made, but I'm not sure what it's used for now, obviously not news work.

John?

It used to be horrible stuff, I haven't seen any for years; I don't know if it's improved since then.

Returning to the original subject, the Baird intermediate film system, used briefly by the BBC in 1936 transmitted wet film, I think it was 17.5mm, but I've never seen any. There are supposed to be a few frames surviving somewhere.

The film passed straight from the camera to a processor, where it was processed in less than a minute, and was then transmitted wet. A cyanide fixer was used, I assume this was for speed, and I think the film must have been a negative. I once met someone who had worked on this equipment, and he said that performers would sometimes rush to the control room when they finished their act, to catch the last few seconds of their performance on the monitor.

I think the Baird system, in its final version, achieved something like 240 lines. The BBC used this, and the Marconi EMI 405 line system alternately for a short time, then the decision was made that the Marconi system would be adopted, and Baird was dropped. The Marconi system was used until the television service was shut down on the outbreak of war in 1939.

The same system was used when the service resumed after the war, and a second, independant, channel started in the '50s. The BBC made some expermental colour transmissions, using NTSC on 405 lines, but it was decided that Britain would switch to the european standard CCIR 625 line system. This was first used here when our third channel, BBC2, started in 1964, (and was put off the air on it's opening night by a fire in a power station).

The two existing channels remained on 405 lines VHF (the 625 lines service is on UHF), so dual-standard sets were made for some years; we didn't have one of these, so we couldn't get BBC2; I remember being jealous of the neighbours and their new 625 line set!

Regular colour transmissions started in 1967, using PAL, and from this time, the other two channels were also available on 625 lines UHF, but also continued, in black and white, on 405 lines, VHF. The last VHF transmittrs were not shut down until the early '80s, by which time the last 405 only sets would have been getting on for twenty years old. I doubt if there were many still in use for several years before this.

It's a pity that more of the early television equipment doesn't survive.

Posted by Paul Trimboli (Member # 1509) on 02-23-2003, 07:27 AM:

John Logie Bairds 250line television system ran 16mm film wet, it took a lot of light to expose the spinning nipkow disk so the only way to get film a subject with minimal lights was with 16mm! This was when 250line television and the BBC 405 line systems were competing,you can sort of see why the fully electronic one eneded up being used!

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 02-23-2003, 08:04 AM:

Paul,

the Baird system must have been an absolute nightmare to work with. From pictures I've seen, it looks like the camera was fixed in position, built into the studio wall. I don't think multi-camera work would have been possible, and I'm not sure how much film stock the camera could hold.

As I understand it, an anouncer would be standing in darkness, in the flying spot 'spotlight studio', which was just about big enough to hold one person, they would then anounce the act, and were transmitted live by a mechanically-scanned spot if light flashing across their face. The actual perfomance, lasting just a few minutes, would then be transmitted by the film system. The result must have been somewhat like watching a music hall performance. From a production point of view, it must have been rather similar to the way that sound on disk films had been made, a few years erlier.

Baird did some remarkable work, he had demonstrated colour television, 3-D, and large screen projection very early, I think in the '30s, and proved the possibility of a television service, but his system, as used by the BBC, was clearly impractical, and inferior to the Marconi system then on offer. Baird's ork really belongs in the experimental era, rather than that of a regular public television service. I wonder how serious the BBC trial of the two systems was, surely, the electronic system must have made the Baird system obsolete by this time? Maybe the BBC had to be seen to be giving a British inventor a fair chance. It is difficult to believe that anybody comparing the two systems, as available at that time, would have opted for the Baird one.

The BBC Baird system really was the ultimate in electro-mechanical television; it had improved considerably from the 30 line days, but there wasn't really much scope to develop it further, and it would have severly limited the type of programming which could have been produced.

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 02-23-2003, 10:10 AM:

During the 1936 Olympic Games at Berlin, they used both stationary electronic cameras and a system called "zwischenfilmverfahren" (indirect film transmission system).

The 35mm film camera was mounted on top of a mobile truck, the exposed film went into the truck, was developed and scanned for transmission, if I remember right, with a rotating prism/mirror device based on the Mechau projector mechanism.
The developing and scanning took about 50 seconds, which was an acceptable delay in transmission.

The reason for this procedure was that the early TV cameras could not be moved around without having to recalibrate the electronics, but I`m not sure of that, just read it somewhere.

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 02-23-2003, 01:42 PM:

In 1953 the Plaza Theatre, Piccadilly Circus in London, did a continuous exposed 35mm-telerecording film of the Coronation of HM Queen Elizabeth II taken from the BBC transmission. I cannot remember what the time lapse was from processing to projection, but I believe it was within a very short space of time. I think there was an article published by the BKSTS in recent years.

In my first ITN television working days colour had just been introduced, 16mm & 35mm telecine were projectors facing fixed camera modules. 16mm newsfilm was shot on colour reversal stock with magnetic stripe. Most stories were edited and the sound dubbed onto 16mm separate magnetic for live TX, or occasionally to 2” quad or the later 1” VTRs for studio inserts. I did see wet gate being used on a transmission, but mostly it was archive film being transferred to VTR. I also saw a couple of B+W telerecordings to 16mm.

Later all film live TX was only from two Rank Cintel machines. Projectors were used for VTR transfers only. ITN was also an outside facilities house for extra income. When ENG replaced film completely, the ITN in house Rank film lab closed. Myself with the 5 remaining projectionists (from a complement of 13) became all format video and telecine transfer operators.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 02-23-2003, 01:46 PM:

Christian,

There was a documentary on early German television shown here a couple of years ago. It looked very interesting, but unfortunatly I only saw part of it. I'm not sure how the technology compared to what the BBC had, but in terms of the way it was used, I think Germany may well have been the world leader in television at that time, yet today this work is almost unknown.

Does anyone have information on early, (1930s), television in other countries?

The BBC also used the Mechau system, but later, and in the studio building, not on location. Take a look at this site:

Early BBC Television

The Mechau is in section 15, it was used both for telecine, and for film recording.

The BBC did not completely leave Alexandra Palace until about twenty years ago. At a similar time, there was a major fire, which destroyed much of the building, (the second in its life, it burned down the first time very soon after it opened). The exhibition halls, at the other end of the building, were reduced to little more than the walls, but were restored. The parts of the building used by the BBC were not destroyed by the fire, but apart from the offices in the corner of the building under the mast, are now fairly derelict. The mast is still there, and is still in use.

A few months ago, I was able to visit one of the studios, it was very small, no equipment remains, but there is a display of television sets. There is also a theatre, disused since the '20s, which was later used by the BBC for storage. We were able to look into this, but not to enter it, as the building is unsafe.

There was talk of a television museum being set up in the building after the BBC moved out, but it never happened.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-23-2003, 02:06 PM:

NFL Films was using VNF exclusively until the mid-1990s when they switched to color-negative stock.

Now, I believe that most VNF film is used by NASA and the US military, since their lab facilites are set up for it and it suits their needs. Sometimes, VNF is used to give a certain unusual "look" to music videos and feature films (I'm pretty sure that "25th Hour" contains many scenes which were shot on reversal film which was cross-processed to produce a color negative).

I'm not sure if it's still available, but Kodak also used to sell something in the early- and mid-1990s called "Primetime," which was color negative stock without the orange masking that one finds on "normal" negatives. Apparently it worked (works?) beautifully for TV work, but couldn't be printed.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 02-23-2003, 02:42 PM:

Bernard, did you ever know either Ted Church or Harry Court?

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 02-23-2003, 03:04 PM:

From what I've read, by the mid 1930's, Lohn Logie Baird had to abandon his mechanical television in order to compete with EMI's electronic version. He had contracted Philo T. Farnsworth to provide his electronic system, which by that time, had several disadvantages compared to the EMI/RCA system. Farnsworth's Image Dissector tube was not as light sensitive as the EMItron camera tube, and resolution was also an issue.

The 1936 Olympics also used the Farnsworth system, and when Philo and his wife traveled to Germany to collect his royalties, their passports were revoked and they had to be smuggled out of the country!

There are several good books on the subject: TUBE, PLEASE STAND BY, and THE LAST LONE INVENTOR

Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 02-23-2003, 05:26 PM:

IN 1953, CBS had a lab installed in an aircraft so that they could process the film of the coronation of HM Queen Elizabeth and have it ready for showing when they touched down in NYC several hours later.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-23-2003, 05:33 PM:

Kodak VNF color reversal films are still available. Users include film schools, travelogues, and instrumentation (e.g., photographing automobile "crash dummy" tests). The resolution and measurement ability are still preferred to digital for analyzing high speed action:

Kodak reversal films

Kodak VNF-1 Process

Stored properly, many of those color and B&W newsfilms are in better condition than the tapes used for early ENG.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-23-2003, 05:39 PM:

Wasn't NBC transferring news video to film for preservation? I don't know if they still do but I'm certain I've seen footage that was almost certainly shot on tape but had been put on film.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 02-23-2003, 05:48 PM:

This is straying a little off-topic, but for some reason this thread reminded me of a Polaroid instant-movie invention called "Polavision":

The camera used a proprietary Polaroid FILM-based cartridge (similar to 8mm; NOT videotape). I think each cartridge held like 2.5 mins. of SILENT footage. When you finished shooting a roll, you removed the cartridge from the camera and inserted it in this special developer/viewer contraption, and a couple minutes later, presto, viewable film!

Needless to say this was the wrong product at the wrong time and it was a HUGE and costly flop for Polaroid. Affordable videotape systems were just on the horizon, with MUCH better picture quality, plus sound. Plus I think you could only show the film on this special viewer. I remember Polavision being featured on the old Tom Snyder "Tomorrow" show (used to run after David Letterman when he was on NBC). An executive from Polaroid was there and demonstrated their "revolutionary" new instant motion picture film system. If not for videotape, I suppose this Rube Goldberg technology could have been adapted to professional uses like news footage for television.

More Info About Polavision

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 02-23-2003, 06:18 PM:

About the time of Polavision, Polaroid was experimenting with a black and white 16mm film stock with the capability of processing within a camera with an a development kit. This was destined for news reporting but outside of some technical annoucements in engineering journals, never was marketed.
I worked in a television film lab one summer in the late 1960's and remember doing some "wet telecine" work for important news film if it had to air before a 45 minute deadline.
Richard Fowler
Kinoton America Inc.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 02-23-2003, 06:27 PM:

Steve wrote:

quote:

Wasn't NBC transferring news video to film for preservation? I don't know if they still do but I'm certain I've seen footage that was almost certainly shot on tape but had been put on film.

The reminds me of another magazine article I once read, I think it may have been in something from the BKSTS. (I used to spend far too much of my time reading technical magazines).

A television company had developed a system for archiving colour video material by recording it onto 35mm black and white film stock. This material was chosen both for its superior archival properties and its low cost.

The process didn't record colour separations in the conventional sense; the composite video, which was still normal for broadcast work at that time was first separated into luma and chroma. The luma was recorded as a conventional monochrome positive image, but with a 2:1 anamorphic squeeze, using half the normal frame width. Alongside it the chroma was recorded using the other half. Exactly how it was encoded, I don't know. The film could then be run on any conventional black and white or colour telecine, and the resulting video signal put through a box of tricks which would recreate the original composite video. It was claimed that the system had the additional advantage that the film could be projected, in black and white only, using a half width aperture and an anamorphic lens, for preview purposes.

The system was said to be in use, but I have never heard of it since.

The BBC has re-created several episodes of 'Dr. Who, which they had long ago discarded, by combining black and white film recordings sold for transmission overseas with colour Betamax home video recordings.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-23-2003, 11:12 PM:

I still have a brochure for Polavision I picked up at a long ago CES. Also fliers for other various still-born systems that were never even marketed like JVC VHD videodisk and the Toshiba LVR stationary head VCR. There was instant 35mm slide film using the same additive screen technology.

I still kick myself that I didn't buy a CBS EVR player when it was available in a surplus catalog. EVR (Electronic Video Recording) used B&W film with a pair of frames, one representing luminance and the other the chroma info. Or both could be used separately for double the program time. The film was read via flying spot scanner.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 02-24-2003, 12:17 AM:

I did a lot of 16mm newsreel and film processing at a TV station I worked at in the late 60s & early 70s. We used Kodak EFB 7242 EKTACHROME (and some 7256) reversal film mostly at an EI of 125 tungsten/80 daylight with a #85 filter. (From memory....) That series film was later replaced with the VNF (Video News Film)series. The film processor I used was a Filmline FP50 or some such thing. It would normally take about 25 minutes to process and dry the 1st foot of film and then the film would come out at 50 feet per min. We used the Kodak ME-4 process which was a 100% improvement over the old process. This process used a chemical reversal where as the old one required a re-exposure light for the reversal.

One could cheat a little on the time for a hot news story by speeding up the machine in the color-developer, the bleach, the fixer, and some of the washes. You could NOT cheat on the pre-hardener, 1st developer or the last chemical step (stabilizer) or the drying. If you did that, the emulsion would be too soft and peel off the second you projected it. The film was always dry. Also, we always cut/edited it before it was aired. The term "wet" might have been used in the context to convey it was a hot story and not literally. The projectors we used were RCA TP-66 telecine projectors.

>>> Phil

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 02-24-2003, 02:08 AM:

Steve wrote:

quote:

I still have a brochure for Polavision I picked up at a long ago CES. Also fliers for other various still-born systems that were never even marketed like JVC VHD videodisk and the Toshiba LVR stationary head VCR. There was instant 35mm slide film using the same additive screen technology.

VHD was certainly marketed in Japan, and, to a limited extent, in Europe; I don't know if it ever was in America.

Polaroid instant slide film is still available.

Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 02-24-2003, 05:03 AM:

CBS News used the Y/C process for producing seperate B&W matrices during the 1970s. As a result, the color from those films is still recoverable. I remember it being briefly marketed as a consumer product, but it was eclipsed by the Betamax and finally VHS. You could only watch the film cassettes and couldn't record with it.

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 02-24-2003, 06:06 AM:

Stephen asked,

Bernard, did you ever know either Ted Church or Harry Court?

No,never heard of them. Were they in the early days before me at Kingsway or Wells Street? I was last at the new studios in Grays' Inn Road, doing freelance about 10 years ago.

Posted by Paul Trimboli (Member # 1509) on 02-24-2003, 06:52 AM:

Baird's first television broadcasts were made with 30 lines, scanner vertical giving you an odd shaped aspect ratio. He broadcast television programs over the AM band of the BBC after the main sound broadcast was over. He used a mirror drum camera to project a flying spot onto his subjects. There have been some recording found that people recorded at home, using home record recorders. The images have been recovered and the programs actually had great entertainment value. When Baird was using his 250line system he had 3 systems to televise with, one was a flying spot system which was rarely used, the second was the intermediate film process which made around a 3 min delay from camera to broadcast, and he used a Philo image disector as well. He projected large screen images in colour around this time as well. I have built mechanical television systems, nothing is more reqarding then seeing a Television picture from a camera and reciver you built yourself!

Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 02-24-2003, 07:47 AM:

That sounds like a fun project! The photos of Baird's original apparatus made it appear like a tangle of junk, but he made it work. Components like a hat box and other odds and ends wouldn't inspire much confidence, but he was the first to transmit television pictures.

I've head that he produced a color version of his mechanical system, but I never knew of his large-screen work. And he actually did make the first video recordings on wax discs (the first videodiscs!). There's a site which can be accessed through: Early Television Foundation which displays segments from Baird's recordings.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 02-26-2003, 12:43 PM:

Bernard wrote:

quote:

No,never heard of them. Were they in the early days before me at Kingsway or Wells Street? I was last at the new studios in Grays' Inn Road, doing freelance about 10 years ago.

Bernard, I don't know a great deal about their backgrounds, but they both taught projection at Wandsworth Tech (now South Thames College) in the mid '70s. By that time, this was just 16mm, but there had previously been a setup there for training cinema projectionists.

The reason I mention them is that one of them had some involvment with the Coronation video/film recording/projecting system, and had a few photographs of the equipment. I think it was Harry.

They had been involved in a lot of interesting goings on in the 50s, and had stories going back to the sound on disk days. I was told that a pair of the GK Vistavision projectors was at one time installed in the College, but had long been removed when I was there. There was certainly a roll, a few hundred feet long of Vistavision print, lying around in one of the rooms, they used it to cut up for making slides from. It was when I saw a slide with an optical track on the top edge that I discovered Vistavision; I asked about it, and was shown the roll of film. Interestingly, I am certain that it had a VA track, duo-bilateral I think, but the print of 'Battle of the River Plate', which ran at the Odeon Leicester square had a VD track, which contained little or no silver. This must therefore have come from another film, but I don't know which one.

In an e-mail exchange with another member of these forums a few months ago, I was told that one pair of the GK projectors went to a College, and that parts of a pair are in store at a location in the uk, but the other parts, which were thought to be somewhere in Switzerland, had not been located.

At the time I knew them Ted was getting on in years, and Harry, though somewhat younger I think, had been ill, so I think it is quite liely that both of these gentlemen have now passed on; it is getting on for thirty years ago that I knew them.

At that time the college library had a few books on film projection, including an old one with pictures of the (then) new Grandeur 70mm machine, and various other oddities from the '20s, early sound systems, etc.

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 02-26-2003, 02:40 PM:

Very interesting Stephen,

I have a short length of horizontal VistaVision from “Battle Of The River Plate” which confirms the type of soundtrack you mentioned. I did see a demonstration by Technicolor of horizontal Technirama at the Odeon, Leicester Square, which was excellent.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-27-2003, 12:04 AM:

Many RCA TP-66's were fitted with "Wet Gates" for doing film transfers. The solution was a special freon based stuff though and I can only assume that its no longer available. I do knowone transfer facility that used Film-Guard in this application device quite sucessfully.
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 02-27-2003, 06:29 AM:

Mark, the only thing I've seen like that is a device that applies that liquid in advance of the gate. It is all evaporated by the time the frame is presented for projection. One of my TP-66's has such a device that I use to apply FilmGuard.

In any event, I don't think the poster was referring to the film still being wet from processing. The emulsion is still way too soft.

>>> Phil

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-27-2003, 08:22 AM:

As I recall, one of the devices used on early telecines was "Pic Clear", which used an index-matching solvent that had a fast evaporation rate, but slow enough that it was still on the film as it reached the aperture of the TP66 telecine projector.