Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: What's the best way to find reel numbers?

This is topic What's the best way to find reel numbers? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Jim Spohn (Member # 1547) on 03-11-2003, 02:42 PM:

I received a film that had no head or tail leaders on any reel. Its pretty easy to figure out the first and last reels but since the reel changes often happen at scene changes, you can't just match the head of a reel to the tail of another reel. What's the easiest way to figure out the reel numbers?.....Jim

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-11-2003, 02:45 PM:

What's the film title?

What audio formats are on the film?

Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 03-11-2003, 02:48 PM:

Jim, forgive me if I am stating the obvious, but were the unattached leaders included with the shipment? If, by chance yes, are there any "i.d." frames left on the leaders? If, by chance yes, do they match the frames on the heads and tails of the reels?

I am guessing it isn't that easy though. I've run into this situation before, and have had to resort to looking at a video and trying to match a shot on the tape to the shot on the film. It can be a long and tedious process, but I didn't have any other options.

I know that I may not have been much help, but there may not be an easy solution here. What film is it? Where did the print come from, perhaps someone here has dealt with the print and could be of some assistance.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-11-2003, 03:06 PM:

As a result of comments here on Film-Tech, and discussions in the Inter-Society Committee for the Enhancement of Cinema Presentation, it's likely that a secure website(s) may be set up with access to images of the first and last frames of each reel, at least for the major distributors. No details yet, but should be soon.

If you still have the leaders, one positive way of matching the leaders to each reel is to use the unique magenta-colored edgeprint numbers that Kodak prints along the edge of print film. Each roll of 35mm raw stock VISION Color Print Film that Kodak manufactures has a unique edge number printed every metre or so along the edge, such as:

2383 803 074 0 27 20 K.ODAK 2003

http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/h1/sizesP.shtml

Brad has also discussed the method of matching the modulation on the analog soundtracks as a double-check.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-11-2003, 03:17 PM:

Nice to see someone is finally waking up to my idea for a website with ID frames. But a secure website??? Oh please! That's just stupid.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-11-2003, 03:27 PM:

Evidently some distributors are concerned with even still images being available on a public website, especially before a movie's release. As you know, secure password-protected sites are already being used for shipping info, advertising, and promotional material, and would be the likely way to handle these images.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-11-2003, 03:57 PM:

The average movie has between 150,000 and 200,000 frames. So big whoop de do if a dozen ID frames (most probably at low resolution) get out. The part about this that is so ridiculous is that there are always TONS of promotional pictures of the movies out way before the theatrical release, plus the frames at the ends of the reels are almost always useless to anyone other than a projectionist. Rarely do the ID frames have the actors in a position worthy of saving. [Roll Eyes]

Like I said, that's just stupid.

Hey Daryl, think you can set us up a program so anytime a thread like this that discusses excessive studio bootlegging paranoia turns up that we could move it onto a secure server? Clearly this is a huge issue and we should make sure that even the discussions about how stupid these things are are protected from prying eyes.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-11-2003, 04:21 PM:

Years ago when there was only one sound format, it was standard to find reel ID numbers and footage markers on the film itself. An examble was:

2A975 and 2B888.

The "2A" was the first section of reel 2, and the 975 was the footage number from the head of that reel. The "2B" was the second section of reel 2, and the 888 was the footage number from the head of the second section.

There was another numbering system that was being used, but I never paid much attention to it.

Since the advent of SDDS, DD, and DTS, all the numbering systems fell by the wayside. Getting a reel with no leader or tail made it a big guessing game.

I don't know if a partial reel ID could be superimposed on the SDDS track without driving the SDDS into default. Any comments?

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-11-2003, 04:29 PM:

Warning: I'm going to have to lock this thread soon for security purposes. I've also added this thread to the Disallow: section of the robots.txt file so that it is not indexed by any search engines (since pirates are known to use search engines to find bootleg material).

Posted by Jim Spohn (Member # 1547) on 03-11-2003, 05:00 PM:

I finally was able to match up the reels by running them on my Moviloa, but it took a long time to do. I don't remember the title of the film. The leaders were not shipped with the film at all. Listening to the sound track made things easier than watching the picture because of the scene changes at the reel changes. I was asking the question not for this film but any film in the future that I may get like this. There are some very clever guys on this site and I thank all of you for your wisdom.

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 03-11-2003, 05:01 PM:

You can always hide it in the Picture section of the joke forum. [Razz]

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-11-2003, 05:08 PM:

For movies that are distributed by TES you can have them fax a sheet with pictures of the reel ends to you.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-11-2003, 05:15 PM:

quote:
As you know, secure password-protected sites are already being used for shipping info, advertising, and promotional material, and would be the likely way to handle these images.

I also know that most projectionists don't have access to many of these sites and that most bookers (that do have access) won't appreciate after hours phone calls to their home to have a copy of the id frames from the secure website emailed to them.

Now if they were to have it that any (or every) projectionist had access to the secure site, it would no longer be secure. Do you think that the 18 year old popcornjectionist that goes home and pirates movies with his DSL connection is going to protect the secure site's password if he thinks that it is worth pirating?

Heck, when Mijo first started doing ad slicks via ftp, I was able to find a username and password to access the site using Google before they got around to faxing me the info.

Anyway, if I was going to pirate a foot of frames I would probably just use frames from the trailers on Apple's website. They are high quality and I'd have a much better selection (more frames per feature) to pirate from. Hey, maybe the Apple Trailer site should be a secure site too. [Smile]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-11-2003, 08:52 PM:

If you have an SDDS player, you could run the reels and hook your laptop up to the processor. The SDDS alignment software will tell you the reel number and the footage count.

If you have the DFP-2000 series (older models) you can open up the front panel and read it off the display on the inside of the unit.

This all assumes you have an SDDS player to run the film on, though... [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-11-2003, 08:57 PM:

If you want to do it that way, you could also use a DTS-6AD -- no laptop required. You don't even need the discs.

Posted by Joseph D. Olson (Member # 1340) on 03-12-2003, 12:51 AM:

The only time I've ever heard of this problem being solved without ordering replacement reels was for Lawrence of Arabia, in which nearly every ID frame was the same on all reels. Luckilly, the film booker for the chain had seen the movie so many times, she figured it out for the guy.

I'd say call whoever your distributor is and bitch.

Posted by Robb Johnston (Member # 239) on 03-15-2003, 08:37 AM:

I had a similar issue about 4 years ago. I was helping open a theatre and one of the prints we got was Permanent Midnight. There were heads and tails, but 3 or 4 of the reels had at least one if not both leaders incorrectly placed. For example, what I thought was reel 3 had the head of 3 and tail of reel 4, all with no ID frames.

By that time it was very late at night (early morning) after the VIP event had ended, I was the only person in the building, and didn't know what to do.

I called Technicolor since they were the delivery agency, basically to complain about the theatre we had recieved the print form and found a helpful item that they offer. Their Customer Service reps have access to a reference Frame ID sheet that the rep used to help me ID the frames over the phone. I gues sit is the same type thing John referred to, and there is no need to wake your booker. No need, that is as long as it is a technicolor print. The single most positive thing I have ever encountered with that company.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-15-2003, 09:24 AM:

I have had that situation occure several times over the years. What I would do is look at the sound track and if there was sudden changes at the reel joins it most likely didn't match. Another thing I would do and this is if they just tore the splice and left the tape on the film, I would match up the tear pattern. Then I would screen it for correctness. I don;t recall having to redo anything afterwards. My big question has always been what the hell did they do with the leaders to begin with?

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-15-2003, 11:59 AM:

The whole idea of needing a secure site because an image could possibly be seen by the public of a film which the studio wants to market TO the public is part and parcel of distribution's paranoia and their demonstrable, compulsive obsession with protecting their "intellectual property." They want total control (as if there is such a thing). Then they they turn around and PAY to have every media outlet around the world promote those very same images.

If they are so worried about the public seeing ID frame images --and it should be noted that if the print and has no leaders attached, it is unlikely that the it is a new title which hasn't been played yet; missing leaders isn't something that happens pre-release -- then Photoshop can easily be used to black out actor's faces or block-digitize any special effect that they want to "protect." They could even put a hatch pattern over the whole frame. The image would still be useful for ID purposes but pretty useless for any "financial harm" the execs might conjure up in their delusionary, paranoic brains.

Don't they realize that even if a frame or two were to "get out" before a picture's release, all it can do is stimulate a desire for their intended market? They should be happy there is enough interest in their product that someone is willing to go through the trouble to hack a few ID frames. It's the same idiocy as their going balistic that someone might get a hold of a trailer of one of their titles. A trailer is an ADVERTISEMENT -- they PAY to have people see them. How it becomes a BAD thing for people to have interest in their product is a twist of logic that makes Alice in Wonderland look like a land of reason and sensibility.

Frank

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-15-2003, 01:22 PM:

Can anybody say, "Digimarc"?!

www.digimarc.com

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-15-2003, 01:56 PM:

If I can see it, I can copy it, Digimark or not. What are they going to do, encode an image for every theatre so they can track down who let it out?

Heck they don't even utilize CAP coding significantly.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-15-2003, 05:47 PM:

Why thank you Frank for a more detailed expression of the studio paranoia that I did not express. Indeed protecting those ID frames on a secure site is one of the most ridiculously stupid things I have ever seen in this industry.

No wait, I think this one may actually deserve the title "most stupid". Studio paranoia has sunk to a new level. (I'll bet Valenti is behind this somehow. He seems to think that everyone is criminals and the public would actually want crap like low rez ID frames.)

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-15-2003, 05:55 PM:

quote:
I don't know if a partial reel ID could be superimposed on the SDDS track without driving the SDDS into default. Any comments?

Yers, as long as it is not in the cyan layer. The SDDS camera will not see it.

Posted by Brett Rankin (Member # 31) on 03-15-2003, 06:24 PM:

" I don't know if a partial reel ID could be superimposed on the SDDS track without driving the SDDS into default. Any comments? "

Why not use the available between-sprocket space on the opposite side of the DD track? It's the only part of the film that isn't used and reel numbers or other pertinent info could be printed there..

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-15-2003, 06:59 PM:

What about prints without SDDS tracks? Why couldn't that area be used for reel identification information (maybe different colored edges for different reels, as others have suggested in other threads)?

Although this wouldn't help for major releases (which would have SDDS tracks), it would be a low/no-cost way to help out those of us who often deal with more limited releases which may have no digital tracks or be SRD and/or DTS only.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-15-2003, 09:30 PM:

Brett, the between sprocket hole area on the inboard side is reserved for future Dolby tracks. You'll probably see it used for 'Dolby 10.2'.

Yers, the current printers are only capable of a cyan exposure in the SDDS area. The current edge print is printed by the manufacturer before processing. An additional magenta edge print could be printed, but that would cost money so I doubt it'll ever happen.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-15-2003, 10:19 PM:

I wonder how much it would cost for the labs to turn a light on to create a colored stripe down the inboard sprockets? One color per reel, of course. I would say that it should match the leader colors (R1=yellow, R2=red, R3=green, etc) but some supergenious decided to make R4 yellow too! [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-15-2003, 10:36 PM:

Isn't R4 orange?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-16-2003, 12:31 AM:

Not down here. There seems to be a slight difference in shading, but R1 and R4's colors are so close that if they ARE different, then they shouldn't even bother. With blue, pink, purple, and so many other OBVIOUS colors, they had to go and re-use yellow for R4. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-16-2003, 09:06 PM:

Yeah, but R-1 should have the opening credits on it, no?

Posted by Neil McGovern (Member # 1247) on 03-16-2003, 09:21 PM:

And in the UK, the very first thing you see on ALL prints is the BBFC certificate (which, coincidently, is excellent for telling if a film is in 'scope, and for that final focus before feature).

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-16-2003, 10:22 PM:

Randy, you're forgetting about the films that are still flashing opening titles by the fourth reel!

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-17-2003, 08:14 AM:

So, does that mean the yellow bands are like brackets? Y'Know...
<Yellow Band> Credits </Yellow Band> ??

[Big Grin]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-17-2003, 10:35 AM:

I recall that Deluxe Laboratories proposed an edgeprint color coding method for reels years ago, that they called "ColorReel". Unfortunately, Sony SDDS and Dolby Digital now occupy most of the areas where edgeprinting was used. Not all release printers are capable of edgeprinting.

The SDDS tracks are printed from a B&W sound negative, so any written information on the track would be the same color as the printed SDDS track.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-17-2003, 12:33 PM:

I've got a Deluxe Coloreel wallchart somewhere, probably from the early 80's. It describes its purpose and refers only to coloured head (and maybe tail) leaders.

I'll take a picture or scan it if I can find it.

Posted by Don E. Nelson (Member # 1049) on 03-18-2003, 02:41 PM:

If the name of the movie is Momento, or Betrayal (1983) or any number of other films that are filmed backward ***, it really doesn't matter which reel orientation you use, the film will be just as confusing and people like me will come back to see the film again to try and figure it out.

And then, some of those same people, like me will take the video release and edit the scenes in proper order, just to see what the script looked like in the first place.

*** backward meaning a central plot device of starting at the latest point in time and have successive scenes show what came earlier, until when the movie ends, the story has just begun. and vice versa.

Does anyone know if the DVD release of Momento, includes a re-edited version with the scenes in chronological order.
[Eek!]

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 03-18-2003, 02:49 PM:

Its one of the features of the Limited Edition version of "Memento" .

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 07-27-2003, 02:14 AM:

I finally found the booth that had the Coloreel chart.

Deluxe sticks to it to this day, and I still use it.

I think I'm going to call and order some more, just too see if they ask if my head is on right. It says to call to order more.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 07-27-2003, 03:58 AM:

I don't think Deluxe ever used brown as their color for reel 8- All Deluxe (Hollywood) reel 8's I have seen were yellow-cyan-magenta in an alternating pattern.

Reel 9 was alternating cyan-black-clear

Reel 10 was alternating yellow-magenta-clear

I have never seen a Deluxe print with more than ten reels, so I cannot say what they would use for 11-12-13, etc.

-Aaron

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 07-27-2003, 04:20 AM:

All Deluxe Toronto prints follow the chart. I get brown leaders all the time, well as often as I get 8 reel prints.

Deluxe Toronto starts over with yellow, etc., when they hit reel 9.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-27-2003, 10:57 AM:

First thing Monday, I will call up Duart and ask for a couple. What will they think if everyone on the forum did the same? They are in a Time Warp? [Big Grin]

Frank