This is topic John Allen: "All Seats Hear Stereo" in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-19-2003, 11:28 PM:
 
What is the basis of this new claim for HPS4000 by John Allen? Has anyone heard an explanation behind this?
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-19-2003, 11:33 PM:
 
I don't know how he's doing it, but I'm surprised he didn't do it before.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-20-2003, 02:27 AM:
 
The basic info is at www.hps4000.com but it doesn't explain how such a thing is achieved. I meant to go back to the HPS booth on Thursday, as when I shot that video late Wednesday afternoon we were running behind in preparation for the FT drink. By the time Thursday came and went (shooting other booths frantically before ShoWest closed) I just knew this question would arise since I didn't get it on the video.

Hopefully John can swing on in and explain it in more detail so it makes sense.
 

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Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 03-20-2003, 11:42 AM:
 
Aparently he has grafted ears onto the seats. Butt do the seats also have brains to interpret the sounds? What about noses? Would "All Seats Smell Stereo"? Scratch that. Does the seat have a coin slot so one can put in a nickel to activate all 5 sense?
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-20-2003, 09:38 PM:
 
I have to say that I think he has gone overboard this time. Weather its in the shallow end or in the deep end remains to be seen...or heard.
Mark @ CLACO
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-20-2003, 10:19 PM:
 
No maybe it is spread more evenly rather than just higher and deeper
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-20-2003, 10:21 PM:
 
I figured he would have responded by now. Anyway, let's give him a chance to explain how this works.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-21-2003, 01:05 PM:
 
Bottom line is that it is basically an aiming technique. It's an old idea written about long ago by Paul Klipsch and was tested back then by having subjects move to different places in the soundfield and chart the apparent location of individual musicians in a jazz group whose music was being played. Sort of an objective evaluation of subjective impressions. I haven't seen the research but I suppose if more people sitting in more places can better localize the individual sounds then there could be something to this. No reason to dismiss it without knowing more.

[ 03-22-2003, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: Steve Kraus ]
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-22-2003, 04:48 PM:
 
Steve is correct that speaker aiming is certainly part of it. I only had a few minutes to ask about it, and John Allen did explain that the stereo image is greatly affected by the aiming, optimized for the dispersion of the particular speaker being used.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-22-2003, 05:48 PM:
 
Well, the HPS surround arrays were probably the only ones I ever heard which actually FILLED the room with surrounding sound rather than throwing some effects in from the sides from time to time.
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-22-2003, 05:54 PM:
 
Wonder if he's using any kind of active processing like SRS or Q-Sound or something to enhance the directional effects. It's pretty amazing what some of those processes can do.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-22-2003, 07:22 PM:
 
Michael,
I agree that the HPS surround does usually work well, but I've heard many other surround arrays work really, really well too. It all depends on if the array was designed correctly or not, and if the theatre is accepting to proper positioning and aiming of the surrounds. These are just a couple of the things one has to consider...these are usually the most difficult to acheive in an installation. HPS to my knowledge doesn't use any active stuff normally. We're still awaiting the Grand Pooba to reply on this though.....
Mark @ CLACO
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-22-2003, 11:02 PM:
 
Considering that the published beam angles of the klipsh stuff that were the basis of the HPS had a narrow dispersion pattern than the JBL 4675 I question how that can be done.
If you want true dispersion use the SA speakers
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-23-2003, 03:28 PM:
 
Mark, if JFA is the Grand Poobah then I guess you'd be the *Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler! Steve G can be The Great Gazoo.

* I swear I used to think Kramden was saying "Grand High Exalted Mr. Gruler" which is even funnier.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-23-2003, 04:18 PM:
 
I never had any hot-spot or directional issues with the Klipsch surround speakers if they were properly placed. I think they are excellent speakers.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-23-2003, 08:28 PM:
 
I think the point is being missed the issue is with the stage channel coverage and stereo imaging of the stage channels acording to the latest propaganda from framingham
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-23-2003, 09:20 PM:
 
I am aware of that, but the surround sound quality does not contradict but reinforce the claim to be able to provide full coverage with good location.
 

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Posted by Mark Seaton (Member # 1398) on 03-25-2003, 10:34 AM:
 
Hi Guys,

I typically just lurk, but being that my main interest here is sound, this caught my attention. Interestingly, in the general prosound community, there has been a good deal of discussion on simlar topics, where some have been implementing cross matrixed and "shaded" arrays to more properly distribute surrround to a large space.

For a screen system as mentioned, the goal would be to increase or limit the amount of level drop as you moved away from it. Non standard horn shapes can mostly achieve this, and properly designed arrays of multiple horns per channel could do this as well.

I looked through the HPS-4000 website, but didn't find any information about the new system or any info on what methods are used. It was interesting though to find that there are some HPS-4000 systems in my area. I still have yet to be impressed with the bass in a commercial theater, this looks like a step a little closer.

Regards,

Mark Seaton
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 03-25-2003, 11:12 AM:
 
I don't blame John Allen for not posting.
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-25-2003, 11:36 AM:
 
The HPS-4000 web site doesn't provide enough information to explain in even general terms how the "All Seats Hear Stereo" concept works. All that's being asked here is "Please give us some more information." John Allen doesn't have to divulge anything proprietary, and he certainly doesn't have to get into a debate. If he wants to speak up, he will. Maybe the undercurrent of hostility here discourages him from doing so. If I were him, I would just state my case and leave it at that. Also, it would be interesting to know of any specific commercial theatres where this new concept has been applied. Maybe someone could check it out and report back.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-25-2003, 04:38 PM:
 
I still think it's a great idea. I just wish we knew a little more than 'All seats hear stereo'. It's hard to tell others about the system if we really know nothing about it.

BTW, if anybody missed it, I was just referring to John's ShoWest video interview before. That video leads me to believe that John has a great sense of humour (kinda like Phil).
 

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Posted by Paul Goulet (Member # 297) on 03-25-2003, 05:39 PM:
 
POST DELETED BY MODERATOR - PLEASE READ FAQ BEFORE POSTING AGAIN
 

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Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 03-25-2003, 06:30 PM:
 
I sense something Clintonian going on here. I think we must define just what STEREO means. Does it mean I can hear 3 distinct sources from the front or 3 distinct and EQUAL sources from the front.

In my humble viewing room, my laptop is in the corner of the room. I'm about 8 feet from the left speaker, 12 feet from the center and about 16 to the right. I'm directly underneath the left surround, about 10 feet from the back surround, and a good 20' to the left surround. Do I hear stereo in this position? Well, I can hear each of the speakers when there are sounds specific to that channel. I have a Dolby demo disc with a vocal group doing an acapella song, with voices in each channel. I hear each of the individual parts, but, of course, the speakers closest to me sound louder.

Now, from this position, I'll put on something lush and symphonic...say the Overture to OKLAHOMA. I hear a full, orchestral sound with some localization, but still, I'm hearing mostly that left channel and the left surround. I could claim, however, that I am hearing stereo from that position.

OK, move to the prime listening position (OK, it IS right under the back surround speaker, but I don't have any choice in this room. I'm not fond of pounding through block, weight-bearing walls just to locate a speaker!) On selection A, the vocal group, the sound is much more balanced. I can hear all of the parts equally well, as I am equally distant from each speaker. But, not much difference here. BUT, on the OKLAHOMA track, I hear things much differently, as instead of just 3 sound sources in the front, I hear sounds in-between the speakers due to the exact time that sound reaches my ears. Our brain uses these small differences in timing to precisely locate sound. Sitting in the sweet spot tricks the brain into locating sound that isn't really there. THAT, to me is stereo, and that is what I want to experience in a theatre. There is no way I can do that on the side. That's why you will always find me sitting in the exact center of the theatre.

So, after all of this rambling, my question (and it is a serious and respectful one) is, Mr. Allen, just what is your definition of STEREO?
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-25-2003, 06:47 PM:
 
David has pretty well summed up the one question that keeps being repeated in this thread. If I set up a booth at ShoWest and said "buy my lamphouse and you will never, ever have to change out the xenon bulb", people would say "uhhhh, yeah right". The reason for this is because it has never been done before and everyone accepts the fact that xenons do have a lifespan. This is no different.

Now if I was to explain how and why (even if I did not give away any trade secret), then assuming my lamphouse performed at least as well as the common ones on the market today, all other manufacturers would cease selling lamphouses. Right?

I'll shoot an email off to John Allen tomorrow if we still haven't heard anything from him. He may be waiting for a patent pending to go through or something before he comments.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-25-2003, 06:53 PM:
 
Most companies don't announce something till the patent is actually pending, or at very least till patent has been applied for. That opening page he has up is just a bunch of jargon that leaves one with no sense of what he is claiming. Personally I think its just a bunch of marketing hype just like the built in EX decoding of the rear surrounds was....
Mark
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-25-2003, 07:25 PM:
 
I think some of you are inventing a secrecy issue that doesn't exist. Ought to just be a matter of finding the paper written by Mr. Klipsch and reading what the technique was and deciding how applicable it may or may not be. If it enhances the stereo listening experience then great.

Brad: Your hypothetical lamphouse could be carbon arc!
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 03-26-2003, 05:14 PM:
 
Brad, the fallacy in your analogy is you don't have people ragging on you in a forum that you've been run away from once before. If you recall, John Allen was unmercifully crucified on this forum several years ago, and it seemed everyone ganged up on him. With that in mind, why would he be motivated to deliver anything here?

Just as you would not divulge the formula of your Film Guard (and only make a claim as to what it's supposed to do), John Allen doesn't have to explain how his formulas work, either. He makes a claim as to what the results will be. Suffice it to say that he delivers.

I don't purport to speak for Mr. Allen, but I consider him a friend. Probably to the chagrin of some, he already has the attention of the industry in BOXOFFICE. If he has technical papers to present, he could very easily do so there, or in the SMTPE or AES Journals. He's certainly not obligated to do anything.
 

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Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 03-26-2003, 06:28 PM:
 
If I was John Allen and just read a statement like this one, I certainly wouldn't rush to post anything here.

"Personally I think its just a bunch of marketing hype just like the built in EX decoding of the rear surrounds was...."

Maybe if everything he has posted in the past wasn't attacked with a "if John Allen says it, it must be wrong" type of attitude, he'd be a more willing participant in discussions.

I've only heard HPS-4000 one time in my life and I was very impressed. John's theories and methods may be unconventional but isn't it unconventional thinking that leads to innovation?

If people were to debate his theories based on experiments and facts then maybe the debate would lead to a huge advance in sound quality across the industry.

And BTW, the HPS-4000 EX "decoding" does work. The whole point of EX was to get around the issue of sound coming out of both surround channels localizing to the channel closest to the listener. If you have extremely even surround coverage (which HPS-4000 does, and other arrays are capable of if designed and aimed properly), you will get a phantom-ex channel just like you'll get a phantom center sitting between two speakers.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-26-2003, 07:31 PM:
 
"If people were to debate his theories based on experiments and facts then maybe the debate would lead to a huge advance in sound quality across the industry."
_____________________________________________________________

Lyle,
Thats exactly what has happened at other high end cinema speaker companies over the years!! They have debated the theories, the facts, the nonsense, and the unorthodox.....and have done it all with lots of experience in hand to boot. Some of these companies have the finest research labs in the world for developing this sort of technology. I agree that HPS is a pretty good system, and that it can certainly decode EX to some extent...but not peoperly. However, if John wants to make claims like that he ought to at least explain himself if he wants others to understand and believe. For him to claim something like that and then not stop by and explain it certainly leaves alot of us wondering.....about alot of different things....
Mark @ CLACO
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-26-2003, 07:45 PM:
 
Mark, I am beginning to suspect here that you don`t hear very well... If you did you would probably be able to answer less polemic and more constructive and tell us what your ears say is not good about the systems. As Lyle pointed out, the surround arrays don`t have "inbuilt" EX decoding, it is a matter of localisation. You do not seem to know what you are talking about.
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-26-2003, 07:54 PM:
 
Lyle,

I am very happy that you also agree that HPS-4000 EX does work. I was kind of skeptical at first but when I saw "THE LORD OF THE RINGS-THE TWO TOWERS" at one of the four large auditoriums at Consolidated's (Pacific) Ward Theatres with HPS-4000 (XL) sound, I was very impressed with the way the EX track was decoded with John's system.

On a personal note, I met John Allen many years ago and have seen him a couple of times here in Hawaii during some of Consolidated's new theatre openings and got to know him very well. We have exchanged emails many times in the past and I also consider him a friend.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-26-2003, 08:28 PM:
 
Tim, your analogy needs some serious work. I HAVE explained basically how FilmGuard works. Not giving away the exact formula has nothing to do with it. No one here, including myself, said that John should come on here and explain his exact mathematical formulas for him to derive such sound, however he could come on here and explain a little bit of how this is possible. John himself said that he always believed that his current claims could not be accomplished...and that he has managed to make it work. GREAT! All anyone has asked of the man is to give us a basic explanation to understand that what he is saying is indeed possible. No one has asked for his trade secret of precisely how he does it. This is where your post is out of line.

Regarding what happened a few years back, John directly lied on this forum as well as others forums where he really went off on intense rampages regarding specifics of his Northpark screen 2 installation of which I had first hand knowledge. I heard his system immediately after he tuned it and before anything was touched. It sounded bad. I have not since heard another installation, but I can only assume (and have been giving the benefit of the doubt) that the Northpark theater #2 was just a bad HPS-4000 installation. Then he proceeded to call me a liar regarding a memo that I saw with my own eyes telling us locally to crack the seals on his EQ cards and do whatever we had to do to stop the complaints. As far as what I dished out for him in those discussions, he deserved every bit of it for his lies and insults toward the staff there.

This thread is a completely different topic however. If he is going to make blanket statements to the industry that he can achieve what no one else has ever been able to do, then he must be able to step up to the plate, take the heat, explain enough of how it is possible that it can work, and then prove it. If he cannot do this, I have no sympathy for him, for it is he who made those claims and it is he who will look bad if he cannot prove his claims and make believers out of people in this industry.

On a similar note, I for one am getting really tired of the fact that every time John F. Allen or HPS-4000 comes into discussion on these forums that everything turns sour. I made John aware of this thread last night and here we are 24 hours later. Clearly he has chosen not to respond. If he does not make a public post tonight, then it is clear he does not want to participate and I will put an end to this nonsense. That is fine, that is his choice. But I will make it a practice of closing HPS threads if I must to put an end to these arguments that always turn up everytime he is brought into a discussion.

Now everyone please cool off and give the man a chance to speak. The next post here needs to be by Mr. John F. Allen himself, or I am closing it.
 

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Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 03-27-2003, 12:19 PM:
 
The Fraunhofer Institute (inventors of MP3 and other coding software) has announced and presented a new sound system at the CeBit fair - maybe HPS has taken a licence from them?

quote:

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Press Release February 26, 2003:
Fraunhofer researchers develop revolutionary new sound system

Contact:
Henning Köhler
Phone +49 (0) 36 77 / 69 48 59
Arbeitsgruppe-Elektronische
Medientechnologie AEMT
Fraunhofer-Instituts für Integrierte Schaltungen IIS
Langwiesener Strasse 22
98693 Ilmenau, Germany

“This innovative system clearly improves cinematic sound quality. The difference in quality is even more significant than the step taken from mono to stereo”, comments Prof. Karlheinz Brandenburg, head of the AEMT. The new sound system generates extremely realistic audio sound within the confines of any space or room. This listening experience is based on the wave-field-synthesis (WFS) principle developed at the Technical University Delft in the Netherlands. Unlike with existing sound technologies such as 5.1 Surround Sound, WFS allows new recording processes to be used. The new process developed by the Fraunhofer researchers not only records the sound, but also the acoustic characteristics of the surrounding space as well as information regarding the spatial arrangement of the acoustic source. The real advantage is that it's possible to reproduce a more natural, spatial sound over a wide area of the theater. “Regardless of where the viewer is seated, he always hears voices and sounds effects coming from the right direction and correct distance”, says developer Sandra Brix.

Even films recorded using conventional methods demonstrated marked improvements in sound quality. For recordings that are produced in 5.1 Surround Sound, the optimal sound is not restricted to a small area of the theater, or what is known as the “sweet spot”. The technology was recently installed in a cinema, where an elaborate computer system and nearly 200 speakers distributed throughout the theater provide impressive sound. Every film is an enjoyable listening experience, whether one sits in the first row, outside left, in the middle of the cinema, or all the way to the right of the very last row. “This is the first movie theater in the world to use a sound system based on the wave-field-synthesis technology”, emphasizes Brix.

The technology can bring outstanding sound to any seat, not only at the cinema but also in the private home. Researchers are already at work developing the home stereo system of the future that will transform the living room into a concert hall with optimal acoustics. Because of the technical complexity and high costs associated with the technology, interest in WFS is still limited primarily to professional applications. But anyone interested in experiencing this unique listening pleasure can visit the Fraunhofer exhibition booth in Hall 11 at the CeBIT where researchers will be presenting the system.

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