Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: CP650 and DTS

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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 03-23-2003, 03:28 AM:

HI everyone

I've been told by many people that DTS with CP650 has few problems. Let me explain why.
If I've correctly understood the Format 11 of the CP650 isn't considered as a "non sync" format and Auto digital of CP can switch the format from 11 to 10.

Unfortunately I never worked with a DTS + CP650, just a CP650, for now. I worked many years with a CP500. CP500 considers Format 11 as Non Sync where Auto digital is disabled (I saw that also SR decoding is disabled).

Karen once confirmed me that CP650 acts exactly as CP500... But I'm continuing hearing people saying that is not true.

For example, the company where I'm actually working from set the automation to "force" the Format 11 on CP650...

I really think that it is the usual "cue" problem where automation call DD AFTER that DTS call the format...

I hope I can work with a DTS+650 very soon. In the meantime can someone confirm me the behaviour of this configuration?? [Wink]

MOre: I've been told that a new "updated" DTS player is on the market now. It has a RED "dts" logo. I didn't found anything on this forum or on DTS website. Is it true?

Thanks!!
Antonio

Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 03-23-2003, 08:02 AM:

Hi Antonio,

I'm not sure that's I really understud your question, But in a theater I worked with a CP650 and a DTS-6 troubleless.
You just have to check to use the right automation interface between your DTS processor and the CP 650. The right model is the D-715, to plug to the automation D25 on the back side of the CP 650, and check the position of the jumpers on it.
Meanwhile I experieced some funny things:
When the end tail pass trought the projector at the end of the show, the DTS don't recieve more time code and switch to his failsafe format: Dolby SR. The problem was that on my V8 the exciter lamp still powered when the motor running. I let you imagine how bad was the "end of tail sound" passing trought the speakers [Eek!]

That will blows Yours ears !
The solution was to remove the end tail leader of the feature just after the last cue (who close the douser and switch the non-sync format) and add a step in the PC automation software, to re-force the CP 650 in non-sync mode.
Note: If Your DTS processor is a DTS-6D model, a second failsafe automation pulse is genered, 60 seconds after the tail out, to switch the CP 650 to non-sync.
More tips: If You want running your feature in DTS, and suposing that Your main feature got a Dolby Digital track too, but the trailers and advertising are in Dolby Digital, You may experiencing something like this: I.E. the CP 650 will detect the SRD track prior the DTS give is pulse to switch in format 11. In this case the CP650 wil stay in Dolby Digital...
The same thing will occurs if the DTS lost the timecode (that could happend) The DTS6 will give a pulse to the CP 650 to switch on Dolby SR (05) but if the Dolby digital is present, and the auto digital enable is engaged, the CP 650 will switch to SRD.
The solution ? Disable the auto digital function on the CP650, or switch off the SRD player lamp or Led light source.
If I remember, the 6 channels input on dolby's processors was just connected before the EQ's section of the processor.
Don't hesitate to contact me if you want more informations [beer]

My dilema is to no speak Italian, just Spanish....

Good Luck !

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-23-2003, 12:02 PM:

Jean-Michel, at the end of a dts feature there is information in the timecode which tells the dts-6D to switch the master processor to non-sync. If and which non-sync format is selected is defined on the same interface boards where you configure the reversion to analogue. There is no need to let the tail run out of the projector with the CP in analogue.

With the CP500, there was the problem that the dts board was factory set up to deliver the non-sync pulse on SK8, while most had their automation set up to have non-sync on SK7. So at the end of the feature, the automation would pulse the CP to SK7, and then the dts-6D would pulse the CP to SK8...
But this could be easily remedied by resetting the jumper on the interface board.

I agree that it is best to simply disable Auto Digital and let the automation define which format you want and when.
We have always disabled Auto D, because we have rolling commercials, some with and some without digital, and the constant switching between analogue and digital is irritating.
One way to battle excessive trailer loudness is to play them in analogue. So Auto D needs to be disabled in order to let the automation choose whether analogue or digital.
Choosing Format 10 has exactly the same effect as Auto D, so the function is quite unneeded.

And yes Antonio, the logo on the XD10 is red. However, I am not sure if that influences the unit`s automation.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 03-23-2003, 04:25 PM:

Jean-Michel

I agree with Michael. DTS6D has a interface board where you can set where SK has NS input. If you're not interested in switching on NS just remove the jumper about it. I believe that DTS6 doesn't have that switch but I also believe that DTS6 doesn't have that capability!

My DTS6 didn't have that capability and our on DTS6D we disabled the NS feature, our automation did it.

About DD/DTS: you told that if 650 reads DD before DTS it will stays in DD. Are you sure that automation is not calling format 10 AFTER dts has sent the pulse?
Otherwise what I've heard is not wrong that CP650 stays in DD despite the DTS pulse...
An important thing just come to my mind: I remember that on CP650 if you're in DD and auto digital is selected if you push format 5, the first attempt is ignored by the CP. This make sense. But CP500 disables auto digital when in a non sync format (and format 11 is considered non sync)...

Does CP650 do the same? Or it apply auto digital to Format 11 too?

Bye
Antonio

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-23-2003, 04:40 PM:

Here`s what the CP650 manual has to say:

Auto Dolby Digital
If Dolby Digital is playing and another film format is selected, the CP650 goes into the selected format, and Auto
Digital is temporarily disabled. Auto Digital is re-enabled when a non-film format is asserted and then a film format is asserted. At that time, the system is ready to go into the target format automatically when Dolby Digital audio appears.

That suggests that the processor should be stay in Format 11 IF it is selected after Dolby. If that does not apply, then maybe there is a bug which should be reported to Dolby. I am not aware of any Field Bulletins which would address that.

In the setup software, you can only enable or disable Auto Digital globally. You can not define single formats as Auto Digital sources.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 03-23-2003, 07:26 PM:

Michael,

How does CP650 consider format 11? Film or Non Film format? [Smile]

When CP650 is in DD and you select format 5, the first attempt is ignored. Format 5 is a Film Format I believe! [Smile]

Uhm...

Ciao
A

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-23-2003, 07:59 PM:

Format 11 is considered a film format, I guess. That explains why the processor switches to Dolby even when another format has been selected. It is explained in the excerpt from the manual. To avoid all this switching, it appears best to me to disable auto digital and simply let the automation choose.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 03-24-2003, 03:02 AM:

Michael

There is something that I do not understand. The manual extract says that if a film format is selected while DD is playing the auto digital feature is temporarly disabled. So it should be if I select 11 or 5 while 10 is playing. But it is not true or, better, not so true! CP650 will ignore the first attempt of format change.

If Format 11 is considered Film Format and acts as Format 5 the result is that any DTS player, with auto digital enabled, is unable to select itself because the first pulse is ignored.

This is why I've been told that if you let drop the DTS twice then all is right...

Am I right? [Smile]

Bye
Antonio

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-24-2003, 03:16 AM:

I am not sure of that. I have installed, but never operated a CP650. But I am sure many here will be able to comment on that.
However, I wouldn`t let the dts unit drop, not even once.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 03-24-2003, 03:46 AM:

Michael

I'm working with 650s but no DTS installed, for the moment.

About XD10: is it already on the market????? I didnt' found info anywhere...

Bye
Antonio

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-24-2003, 04:23 AM:

But from past posts I gather you have access to dts units, so you could just bring one over for testing.
I don`t know if the DX10 is available right now. But it should be in the near future.
With the red logo on the front.
Apart from the new logo, it has 10 possible channels of audio, video out, USB, IR and Ethernet, connections, two DVD drives, 40GB hard disk storage space for 30 features, so you have to let it read the disks only once. When you insert the first disk, it stores the first reel onto the hard disk in 30 seconds. Then it is ready for action, you can transfer the other reel data while it is playing the first reel.
It can decode bth cinematic and home dts and has DTS Neo:6 which is kind of like ProLogic II in that it can unfold 2 channels into 6.
The unit can be upgraded to the Cinema Subtitling System, but it is not a complete processor. You still need an analogue processor, like with the dts-6D.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 03-24-2003, 01:00 PM:

Michael

No, unfortunately I do not have access now to a dts unit. The multiplex where I'm working for doesn't have it, but probably it will have in a near future.

Bye
A

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 03-24-2003, 03:45 PM:

Antonio,

The CP650 and DTS-6D work the same as any other installation. When the DTS-6D first switches to digital, it sends one pulse to the CP to go to digital (in the case of CP500/650 it's to format 11). And, then if the DTS-6D defaults out of digital during the movie , it sends one pulse the CP to go to analog (usually SR). At the end of the movie when the the DTS-6D falls out of digital, it send one pulse to the CP to go to nonsync.

What is your system doing? Remember, the DTS player does not monitor automation or the cinema processor. So, if someone pushes another format button or automation pulses the CP to analog, the DTS player cannot "see" it.

The XD10 has a red logo and I posted an article on the unit here two weeks ago. The unit should start shipping sometime in May.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 03-24-2003, 04:20 PM:

Hi Karen

Thanks for your reply! I know very good how DTS works with CP500 and you confirmed me once that 650 is the same.

But, I'm been told by two people in two different places that 650 acts differently from CP500. Is Format 11 considered as a "non sync" format as CP500? Is Auto digital disabled with Format 11?

I realize that the best thing, particularly with an automation that can select what you want, is to disable auto digital but for many reasons I have to know it! [Smile]

I lost you post about XD10! I'll search the forum for it!

Bye
Antonio

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-25-2003, 10:10 AM:

I used to configure the dts automation to pulse on SK 2 of the CP500 and then put Dolby Digital there instead of Dolby A. So that the fallback would be to DD, not SR.
Unfortunately, the CP650 does not allow you to reconfigure the format associations of the keys.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 03-25-2003, 01:40 PM:

I've got it!

Auto Digital is configured to Format 11 too!!!!!

If Dolby Digital is enabled and DTS pulse to Format 11... CP650 call immediately Format 10!! This is why in my company we usually set the automation to pulse format 11 too: to disable auto digital (two pulse disables the auto feature).

Ok, the most convenient thing is to disable auto digital but cannot dolby disables Auto Digital from Format 11 as on the CP500??

NOW I understand what means many people having trouble with Cp650 and DTS.

Karen, I believe that you should warn DTS customers, and CP650 owner, do you agree?

Bye
Antonio

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-26-2003, 03:37 AM:

Unfortunately, the CP650 is not as flexible in the format configuration as the CP500. The custom format function was very good. The Cp650 has less test tones, but I talked to the nice people from Dolby in Las Vegas and asked them if they would put the sinus sweep back, and they said they might do that. I also would like a non-sync fade in/out function like the DFP-D3000 has, but these are really only details.
Just disable Auto D, when you select Dolby Digital, you have exactly the same effect without the side effects.