Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Modifying Aperature plates

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Posted by Don Bruechert (Member # 1538) on 03-26-2003, 01:15 PM:

Another screen related question. In one of our houses when we show scope movies the picture rides way up at the top of the screen, and of course we don't have any decent masking to cover the 3 feet of unused screen at the bottom. I was wondering if it was possible to try and order a special aperature plate that was set up so we could run the picture lower on the screen. My theory on this is that if you run the movie out of frame it would be lower on the screen, and you only see the top frame line and lose the bottom because of the cut of the aperature plate. If the aperature was cut lower in the plate would it not then be possible to run the image lower on the screen?? I know these questions may appear stupid, but one has to learn someplace!!! It is not as simple as moving the projector because it is perfectly aligned for flat - I try to run flat in there whenever I can, but next week will be one of those cases where I will have to run a scope film in there, and we always get customers coming out and telling us the movie is out of frame. We are working on masking for that screen, by the way, but things like that in our place move about as fast as molasses in December....

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 03-26-2003, 01:20 PM:

Sounds like your scope lens may be out of alignment. Are you using turrets or manually changing the lenses?

=TMP=

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-26-2003, 01:36 PM:

Run some RP 40 and make sure you have the right ratio for Cinemascope. It could be that you have the wrong size lens, a mis-cut aperature plate, or the plate might even be upside down.

Don, as a teen-ager in 1958, I was orginally from Manitowoc. As a kid, I only remember this about the theatres:

The Capitol.....it is running now as a Performing Arts Center.
The Strand......it is now a six-plex and is still running.
The Empire......long gone, now home of TEAM Electronics.
The Mikado......long gone, now a home of a church.
The Lake-Vue Drive-in...long gone, was next to WCUB.

I understand there is a multi-plex in a mall, I think it is between Manitowoc and Two Rivers.

Which theatre is yours? I would suspect the one in the mall is, or maybe the Strand. Is it equipped with Century? If it is a Century, it could be the aperature plate is in upside down or someone might have played switcharoo with aperature plates from adjacent houses. Seen that happen many times, and it'll drive the projectionist nuts!

In any event, find out what the problem actually is before you start sawing on aperature plates. New aperature plates are tailored to the screen. Very seldom have I seen a perfect fit of a new aperature.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-26-2003, 02:23 PM:

You would probably lose a lot of light by projecting out of the bottom of the aperature, not to mention the wear on the mech caused by always reframing. You'd be better to shim the lens instead.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-26-2003, 02:26 PM:

A stupid question: Are you sure that you are using the correct aperture plate for that lens/screen?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-26-2003, 02:43 PM:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/pytlak/spring2001.shtml

Always use a test film like SMPTE 35-PA (RP40) to verify you are showing the correct image area. If the image position was correct before, something has changed. Filing the plates may just be putting a "band-aid" on the problem.

Normally, both scope and flat should use the same optical centerline, so reframing is not necessary.

Posted by Don Bruechert (Member # 1538) on 03-26-2003, 06:11 PM:

Paul (and others),

The image fills the entire width of the screen and doesn't look distorted, it just rides really high on the screen. I've only been into this for 6 months, but I am told it has always been this way and that when the house was built the guy told the owner the vast majority of movies were flat, so he believed it and they somehow optimized the setup for flat and didn't pay much attention to scope. Several of us had a discussion last night when I was grumbling because I had to run a scope movie in that house, and they suggested I post something here to see what possibilities exist to lessen the suckiness!

How would the aperature plate be upside down? It only goes in one way, unless you put it in backwards, which I suppose might be upside down, but I never tried it the other way.... Maybe I'll mess with that once and see what happens just for kicks. I know the plates and lenses are all for their specific booths, and they are all labelled so the old switcharoo would be difficult to do.

Paul, just FYI....

The Capitol is a Performing Arts Center now. I live here [Smile]

The Strand is where I work, yes a 6-plex
The Empire is now a culligan man store and a mattress vendor (Team moved)
The Mikado, saved from being a church, is now Lakeshore Cinema (a buck house)
The Lake-view I am just old enough to remember a few movies there, but is a hayfield now... it's for sale if you want to buy it!!

There are also building a 4-plex on 35th and Dewey called Family Cinema, which will also be a buck house....

There's nothing at the mall (literally!).

There... now you are caught up! (and I know how old you are!)

Have no intention of hacking the aperature plate - was thinking more along the lines of paying someone to determine if it is the right one.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-26-2003, 07:43 PM:

If they are still running those old Brenkerts I installed when they went to 4 screens, then the plates can't be in upside down. Hopefully those were junked a long time ago. If its the Brenkerts they always had lens barrel problems with maintaining screen alignment when changing scope/flat lenses. You have to open the dowser and align it on screen...then lock the screw to tighten them down. I remember installing one X-L in Theatre 5 there...don't remember whats in #6...probably another XL I rebuilt.
Mark

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-26-2003, 07:59 PM:

Don, shim your lens barrel or lens. It may help the problem. Also, rotate the scope lens 180 degrees and see if the image shifts. It could also be that the primary and scope lens could be crossthreaded, causing it to cock a little, but I doubt it. I don't know for sure what kind of proectors you have, but if they are Centurys, the aperature plates can be installed upside down. It is impossible for this to happen with Simplex XL's and Brenkerts.

Is that old Motiograph AA still in the orginal house? I think Mark might have changed it....but I am not sure.

Thanks for the update of the old home-town theatres. Appreciate it.

Posted by Don Bruechert (Member # 1538) on 03-26-2003, 09:11 PM:

Mark,

I am not that up to date on all our equipment yet - they have been after me to do the booth inventory for a while, but we have had staff shortages. I am proud to say I have figured out how to do oil changes now and we have half of those done. I didn't know how much oil a projector holds, so I have enough oil around now to last the rest of our lives!!

#4 and #6 have Kniesley consoles. I am under the impression that all of our projectors are simplexes, but these two have different gates - they have a curved front and a thin stainless area behind that is a real pain to use the toothbrush on. All our other projectors have flat gates on them. The aperatures (which look the same everywhere) have a black plastic handle, about a 60 degree bend -\___ and then the flat area that has the aperature in them. The actual aperature has an indent around it on one side. They really only go in one way so they lock. You can kid of tell if you have it in backwards.

I'm pretty sure the lenes are schneiders, and I know the one in #6 for sure has the converter gizmo on it (sorry, my memory sucks). I don't think it is a regular scope lens, I think it is the modified deal I have read about on here.

#1 and #2 are the blue Xetron 2000's, #5 is another console, but I just can't remember the name, and #3 is a really old lamphouse but it still has a simplex head on it.

We have mostly kelmar automation, and as far as I know all of the soundheads are RCA and they have been outfitted with the ??reverse scan? LED system except for #2 which has some kind of LED lamp that goes in place of the exciter lamp and hums like a mother when you turn on the lights in the booth.

That's about all I know about our stuff at the moment.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 03-26-2003, 10:06 PM:

Hello Don,
Welcome to the wonderful world of Cinema.

You may have determined that your images are correct and just don't realize it. The condition you describe is perfectly normal for a CONSTANT WIDTH screen image. Both the flat and scope images fill the screen from SIDE to SIDE, Right?

Then there will be a blank space above and below the scope image which, along with the flat image, is centered vertically on the screen. It is necessary to have MOVING MASKING to cover the blank space at both the top and bottom of the screen. This masking can be manually or mechanically positioned but it is required for your type of image.

If you are disturbed by the blank space at the bottom of the screen, you might tilt the projector. Then all of the blank screen will be at the top.

If the images filled the screen from top to bottom, CONSTANT HEIGHT, then the flat image would be narrower than the scope image making it necessary to have masking at the sides to cover the unlighted area of the screen.

You might like to try the Schneider lens program in your computer as it will show you the way these images inter-relate.

I do not believe that you have aperture plate problems.

KEN

Posted by Don Bruechert (Member # 1538) on 03-26-2003, 10:23 PM:

Yes, I have a constant width. My issue is that there is not space above and below the image, but only space below. If the image was centered vertically on the screen it would not look like it is out of frame. With the image constantly sitting on the top of the screen people constantly complain that we have it framed wrong - we do not, that's just where it lives. The masking (or lack thereof) is a whole other issue! Changing the projector angle is probably not a good idea because that would affect the flat image as well, which is perfectly centered in all directions on the screen.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-26-2003, 10:35 PM:

By the way... exactly how far off is the screen image? A foot, a yard...?

And... it wouldn't be the first setup that I've seen that a few pumps on the jack handle was part of the flat to scope procedure. [Smile]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-26-2003, 11:06 PM:

Hi Don,
Yea....now I remember I moved the Xetron console out of 4 into theatre 5, and I put the Kneisley consoles in 4 & 6. Sounds like da boys got rid of all the Brenkerts at last!! I seem to remember that you have a 1:85 screen in # 4 or 5, or perhaps both, and that we went for the whole scope image shrunk down so you would have constant width and preserve the entire image. Da Boys didn't want scope screens as they would have been just a narrow band across the front walls so I put in 1:85 screens! That was a long time ago.......

You will need a loop of RP-40 to run and check lens alignment on screen....view the two formats without aperature plates in the machine. Start with 1:85 and frame the target so its at the appropriate marks on the target at the top, bottom, and left and right. Then, with out touching the framing at all(!!!) switch to your scope lens. The image should still be centered on the screen left to right fairly closely...keeping in mind that anamorphics do generally cause a little image shift either left or right. Then check top and botton to see if you're still centered. With a little luck it should be. Then slip the scope plate in the machine and see what happens. If the apreature masks off more to the top than the bottom and the target is out of frame then you need to cut a new plate, This is just the basics of doing this...to do things correctly you want to be sure that a number of other things I couldn't fit in here are also in line properly, but this should give you an easy, simplified way to check it out. Another thing I seem to remember is that da boys wanted it cut that way for some reason or other. I remember that they didn't even want manual turretts, which would have made aligning things on screen for you alot easier. Those old pot metal Simplex 4" barrel adaptors are pretty crappy sometimes, the present 4" adapters are much, much nicer.
I almost always cut plates from pinhole type apreature plates as I only had to stock one size. A nibbling tool from radio shack speeds up opening it up, but don't go at it too fast...take very small nibbles....and with a a LaVezzi apreature file open it out and clean up the edges. Ideally the edges should also be beveled so they focus as sharply as possible...you need a fine file with no serrations along the edges!! Cutting plates is an art and it takes patience and time. I suggest you get at least three plates and a couple of files to start with the first time.
Mark @ CLACO
P.S. Tell da boys I said hi!!

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-26-2003, 11:28 PM:

....and remember that when you cut the aperature, everything is bass ackwards on the aperature plate because of pic inversion through the lens. [Smile]

As Mark said, position the lens for the best center vertically and horizontally, then lock it down and start your aperature work.

It is going to be a compromise when you take your file and start filing. Be advised you should make sure the projector is set for the correct angle. Otherwise, you might have some "goofy racking" when you thread until you get used to where the frameline is supposed to fall in the framing aperature. [Big Grin]

If you are skiddish about cutting a plate, In August I might be back in Manitowoc for a class reunion. If so, put on the coffee pot and I'll come over there and rip one out for you.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-26-2003, 11:30 PM:

Using the 1:85 image as refrence, you should actually shim the scope lens inside its adaptor(yea, good luck! [Eek!]

) to get it lined up correctly. Both images have to be centered...then file at it. And I told them to buy turrets! Alignment on screen would take you only 5 min to do both formats [Big Grin]

!!!
Mark

Posted by Don Bruechert (Member # 1538) on 03-27-2003, 12:20 AM:

Well this sounds like it's going to be a fun project! I think I know where the film you refer to is stashed (we'll leave that unmentioned) and I'll dig it out and see where I'm at. Apreature plates might not be a problem as I think there's a plastic bag with about 50 of them in there so I should find something to work with. This of course will have to follow the platter retrofit I have to do in #4... The potts alpha is going to be upgraded to the latest and greatest - it's currently some morphodite thing they only built for a few months, decided it was crap, and quit building it. I've only had one brain wrap (caused by static cling, mind you) in the 6 months I've been doing this, and I made it a good one! [Smile]

I took out a few parts that can't be replaced. They say the new gravity rollers are nice to work with anyway, so it was a fun way to spend $200 of the boss's money!!

Mark, did you only do the original install, or have you been back in for service?? I'm not sure what the service arrangements were, as no one is left there that has been there over a year, but I was under the impression the guys from American Cinema did some kind of yearly visit?? Just curious if I should be calling you or them.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-27-2003, 08:50 AM:

Hi Don,
Yea, I did all the booths there back when it went to four screens, and then added the other two to go to 6 screens. Do Bob and John still run the place? I used to come back twice a year, or more often if needed to do service there. When things got really busy with me it was difficult for to go that far so they started to use MTS for service. I installed that Alpha thats way upstairs and it was brand new when it went in...shouldn't be a problem to fix if thats the one you are talking about. I haven't been in Manitowoc for around 10 years now, but really enjoy the area alot. Also did the installation at the West Bend Cinemas, and installed the plex in West Bend for "Uncle Buck Kolmeyer".

It may be possible that someone before you got the plates mixed up..... As far as service I am definately too far to come there since I am in Utah and we are burried at work for a good part of th year. Steve Kraus who frequents this site may be able to reccomend someone competant to you since he is in Chicago and alot closer. Getting good service back there I realize is now a touch and go thing. I never reccommend anyone I don't know anyting about...try at your own risk! I don't know anything about American Cinema or what ever it was you mentioned, but be sure to hire someone for your service needs that has good credentials, the best test grear, and that lots of experience servicing. Your theatre location gets really busy alot of the time, and you are in a somewhat remote place to have to put up with too many problems.
BTW: are you aware that Lawrence Of Arabia ran in 70mm in your theatre #4 for a month back when it was re-released??
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-27-2003, 09:33 AM:

In a lot of the older theatres with small proceniums they used to make a 4" collar with a preset offset to shift the image down on the screen for scope

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-27-2003, 10:40 AM:

Yeah! Everything is bass ackwards! It takes a few minutes to get used to.

What I did was to take a pinhole aperture plate and make a small nick on the edge of the hole then put it back in the projector to see what happened. Make a few more experimental cuts and observe the results. After a couple-three tries you'll start to see the cause/effect relationship of where to make "cuts" in the edge of the plate.

After you have done a few plates it gets easier. Just go slow at first and you will succeed.

Posted by Don Bruechert (Member # 1538) on 03-27-2003, 08:08 PM:

Mark,

Yes Bob and John still own the place. Bob generally does the bookings, sends us a schedule (usually needs a tweak here and there), and hangs out on Friday and Saturday nights. Otherwise we communicate mostly thru the fax. The only thing I know about John is he fixes the roof...

The Alpha in #4 is the one I killed - it was their first attempt at auto-something or other - in order to flip to rewind on all our alphas except that one you must flip a switch. #4 has some kind of bogus microswitches in the return roller assembly that flip it into rewind mode whenever film is present in the roller (and the variac is up). The rollers pivot to shut off the switch, and are spring loaded. I wrecked the spring and some other nit-shit pieces of the rewind for the middle platter. The new kit I need to install doesn't pivot, but works off of gravity whenever tension is on the film in the rewind. Looks like it will be pretty slick. #3 works great for me, but everyone else hates that booth and say's it's haunted - that is the original booth at the top of the tower.

Didn't know about lawrence... not my kind of flick anyway, but did notice the wierd sprockets on that projector. They are 35MM sprockets, but it looks like there is a lot more shaft there than needs to be... I assume that accommodated the large sprockets for the 70MM... That was supposed to be our "Super Deluxe" booth according to Bob. #4 and #6 support interlock, but I have never seen it set up. I'm also trying to figure out how to change all the burned out light bulbs in the automation remotes... annoying little bulbs those are...

I know a couple of the guys at American Cinema and they seem to know our stuff pretty good. I called down there around Xmas because the PS failed in our CP50, and the guy knew just what I had... Even knew where the spare was hidden.... I've never been there when any of those guys have been around tho...

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-27-2003, 10:21 PM:

Actually we installed another 70mm projector just for the run of Lawrence, I think it was a Cinemeccannica VIC 10. Da Boys always wanted to run some 70mm there.....so we did. They did pretty well for Manitowoc!! Bob is still doing the same thing as when I used to come up there...John...well, I donno...the roof ha? I'm surprised that he would even climb up there.....

Sounds like your guys know things ok. Just keep em comming up there and straighten up all the nitty little problems that exist. The covers snap off of those remopte buttons...be careful doing so, and just use your finger nail or a tiny screw driver. The lamps are special and you may have to get em down in Brew Town at the electronics supply.
Mark

Posted by Don Bruechert (Member # 1538) on 03-28-2003, 08:45 AM:

I got the caps off with a needle nose pliers, but the lamps are recessed into the buttons and we haven't figured out how to get them out. We have similar lighted buttons at the hospital where my day job is, and they have a special removal tool, but of course it is too big for these [Frown]

I don't know if they screw out or pull out, so I don't want to twiddle with them too much....

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-28-2003, 11:35 PM:

Don, I think the bulb you might be using is on the right.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-28-2003, 11:42 PM:

Don,
There should be a small metal thingy (tab) inside the button...if you pull straight back on that it will eject the lamp. If your buttons are not lucky enough to ahve the ejectors then a tweezers will work. Paul is right on the lamp....the one on the right in the photo.
Mark

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-29-2003, 01:45 AM:

Actually, since I busted a bunch with a needle-nosed pliers, how about using a windshield washer hose or a small vacuum hose with a little dab of super glue in the inside. Just simply slide your hose over the bulb, let the glue set, and "give 'er a yank." [evil]

Then take a scissors and whack your old bulb and hose off, and prepare for the next one. [evil]

OK, Phil....keep it clean, please. [Smile]

Seems like that might be a sure-fire method of getting that SOB out of the socket if you don't have the ejector tab as Mark mentioned. [Big Grin]

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 03-29-2003, 02:12 AM:

"Keep It Clean"... Gosh Paul, I'm sure I have not a clue what you mean. [Big Grin]

I have had success with using a "bulb-type" solder sucker (or a baby's ear cleaner thingie) with the tip cut down a little.

I've tried the long-nose pliers thing but most times they just slipped or broke the lamp...even with shrink tubing.

They do make a rubber "tool" to extract those pesky lamps, but I can never find one when I need it!

>>> Phil

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-29-2003, 02:39 AM:

Well, Phil....use a vacuum hose and super glue and "give 'er a yank." [Big Grin]

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 03-29-2003, 03:04 AM:

I tried that Paul. But it got stuck and I almost had to go to the doctors... OH! YOU mean the lamp....

>>> Phil

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-29-2003, 03:20 AM:

Oh, well...you gotta watch the super glue...it is definately a substitute for <ahem>... [Big Grin]

My tool works just fine for removing bulbs. [evil]

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 03-29-2003, 03:21 AM:

Hey! I'm NOT "old"! One is only as old as they think! [evil]

>>> Phil

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-29-2003, 03:26 AM:

hahahah...I edited it. Now you are going to have to edit yours to keep it on track. [Smile]

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 03-29-2003, 03:28 AM:

Yeah, I noticed! Hahhaahahah

>>> Phil!

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-29-2003, 03:47 AM:

Isn't it truly amazing how shit like this can be carried away with our dirty minds? Maybe we spent too much time in the booths by ourselves...Especially us old Carbon Arc nuts. All Don was saying is he has a lightbulb problem he wants to solve. And WHAM!!!! BOHICA!!!! Oh, well. Ex-Navy strikes again.. [Big Grin]

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-29-2003, 02:11 PM:

As for the dead zone below Don's scope image.

At the AMC Old Pasadena 8 Theatres we had two auditoria like yours. The screens were constant-width and the scope image was masked off with a "flipperboard" that swung up to conceal the unused screen area below the projected image.

This meant that we always had to make an effort to keep those presentations as "scope only" otherwise we would cause complaints when the flat trailers "fell off the bottom of the screen."

This is bad theatre design, in my opinion...but, hey...life hands you a lemon, make lemonade! [Big Grin]

Installing a flipperboard masking would entail measuring the area to be covered and then fashioning a matching base out of something like plywood, painting it black and then covering it with duvetine (sp) fabric. You would then also need a few sturdy hinges and two hook-and-eye sets in order to latch the contraption in place.

Sounds to me like your idea to recut plates and/or realign your lenses will still leave you with dead space...above and below the image. This will give your presentations a "letterbox" look. How very "video" of you! [Frown]

Plain English Warning: If you don't know what you're doing, you could end up making things worse by fiddling. My experience with the Kelmar turrets is that it is fiddly stuff at best. I was totally freaked out by how delicate the operation is. It can be a high-wire act if you're trying to do this without cancelling shows because then you have the pressure of the deadline. How experienced are you? Are you confident that you can do this without rendering the system incapable of showing scope movies for a day or two, maybe more, while you find your feet?

For all I know, your turrets may be easier to deal with (than my Kelmars) but that still leaves the issue of your aperture plates -- I'm not afraid to publicly state that I screwed up my first few attempts at plate cutting. Again, it all comes down to the extent of one's experience and one's confidence in his/her ability to meet a showtime deadline (and still get a good result).

It wasn't really until I got a better mentor that my skills improved. I think it's best to be shown these things than to dive right on in. It could create job trouble for you if you're not ready. But that's just my opinion; there are bound to be people who disagree with me.

(Brad -- I don't know if you're still interested. This post took 20 minutes and was edited three times...er...thrice.)

Posted by Don Bruechert (Member # 1538) on 03-29-2003, 03:13 PM:

Quick Answer: I'm about as virginal as it gets...

BUT.... I know better than to tamper with the orginal aperature plate, and we do manual lens changes so there is nothing to screw up except the extra plate.... These are jobs for midnight or weekend mornings anyway.

The mother of one of the employees is making us a really nice border for the bottom. From what I heard yesterday it is done and just needs to be installed. The customers were already bitching yesterday that we had the movie framed wrong. I agree with you on the 'letterbox' concept, but customer ignorance dictates that if the image is centered on the screen they won't complain because they think it is supposed to be that way. To high or too low and "we" made a mistake.... Makes a guy want to put up a sign on the door that says "We know the movie is at the top of the screen - it is SUPPOSED to be that way!"

Mark/Paul, thanks for the lamp tips. I will find out tomorrow if the ejector tabs are there, but I don't recall them. I tried using a "snot sucker" on them already, but it didn't seem to have enough suction to hold onto the lamp... (damn.. a guy has to be so careful of how he words things around here....).

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-29-2003, 03:31 PM:

I am interested to know how your new border masking was constructed.

Photos?

I think the real name of the "snot sucker" is an "aspirator" or perhaps just a "bulb syringe."

Posted by Don Bruechert (Member # 1538) on 03-29-2003, 09:56 PM:

I'm supposed to be taking some pics for the cinemania thing (or whatever it's called) anyway, so I'll just shoot a couple of that too... I know it was based on pvc pipe with a velour over the top, that can be lifted on and off if it is needed or not....

Posted by Don Bruechert (Member # 1538) on 03-31-2003, 12:33 AM:

Hey - even though this is the aperature thread, I have to let everybody know that I got my automation lamps changed. I found the lamps at fleet farm - they are european instrument panel lamps. I bought a couple to just try it, and when I pulled the covers off they all had the little ejector tabs you guys were talking about - it worked pretty slick! And, wouldn'tcha know it, while I was looking through drawers I have been in at least 50 times for a tube of super glue I saw someplace, I found a little baggie with 20 of the buggars in it.... and after trying to figure this whole thing out for 6 months... Hmmph!

Thanks for the help!