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Posted by Dave Michelsen (Member # 1639) on 03-29-2003, 08:15 PM:
 
OK, maybe I haven’t run a booth for over 30 years but, after today’s experience in my local AMC, I feel someone might benefit from an old trick.

I sat through a whole show wanting to get up and fix the framing as heads were cut off by the screen masking. Since it was probably only “professionally noticeable” most people were not aware of the problem. I didn’t really want to get up disturbing others in the row to go complain. (I also didn’t want to miss part of the movie.) I did tell the manager after the show.

My trick is actually two tricks.

Trick #1: Place a mark on the frame knob at the point where the picture centers vertically on the screen. To find this spot look at still credits, matted trailers, an alignment reel, etc. Then when you thread up, be sure the frame knob is in this “calibrated” position.

Trick #2: Look out the port at the screen at least once in a while to be sure everything is OK. Pretty basic and easy huh?—Say “yes”.

Now I’m sure you guys already do this, right? . .well all of you except the guy (or gal) at my local AMC. Anyway, just a little tip from this old dude.

DM
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-29-2003, 08:46 PM:
 
Decently designed projectors (like Kinoton) have a framing center marking anyway.
But as long as lowly paid, badly trained operators operate the equipment (and that will probably be forever), what use is it?
It literally doesn`t pay to work well in a cineplex, so we wll have to live with these problems or at least see to it that they don`t occur in our "own" location.
I always told operators I trained to check the frame knob, and to reset it to center should they need it to change bad framing due to threading or splicing mistakes IMMEDIATELY after the show in which the problem occured.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-29-2003, 08:47 PM:
 
I've got a trick that works better, just lock the damn knob down. If they can't thread in frame, then they can stop the show and fix it. I feel it is better to stop an occasional show due to a misthread for a minute and be dead center than run countless shows slightly out of frame.

Unfortunately this doesn't work at art houses due to the various prints they run and the need to occasionally tweek framing for one reason or another (usually subtitles).

I've found the framing knobs are too sensitive to rely on a marker. The framing can still be way off. Focus knobs however benefit nicely from an arrow when mixing acetate and polyester stocks.
 

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Posted by Ray Brown (Member # 1449) on 03-29-2003, 08:59 PM:
 
This is the position where we keep the frame knob on our Simplex. It should always be in this position.


Not this position :


I agree with Brad, lock the damn thing down.
 

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Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 03-29-2003, 09:26 PM:
 

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I've got a trick that works better, just lock the damn knob down. If they can't thread in frame, then they can stop the show and fix it.

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But would they? I've had trouble getting theatre staff to fix the framing even when the frame line and the next frame is showing on screen. And they STILL do nothing.

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Most definitely they would fix it. When you are 1/2 perforation out of frame, many of these "non-professionals" do not see the problem and write off your complaint to a "crazy customer". When they thread up out of frame and are one full perforation off, you can't NOT notice.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-29-2003, 09:55 PM:
 
Except for one thing... If you push in on the framing knob and turn it, you will unlock the knob from the mechanism and it will move without altering the framing.

I made the mistake of letting this knowledge out to the wrong kids one evening:

I was visiting a theater on my regular route when I noticed that each and every framing knob was cranked way off its normal position. I went around and straightened every one. When the projector wasn't running, I centered the mechanism and reset the knob to center position. The next day they were ALL out of whack again.

I grabbed the kid on duty that night and asked him whether he was threading projectors in frame. He lied right to my face and told me that he ALWAYS did. I told him that I could tell just by looking at the projector that he was lying.

I told him that I had set the knobs so that they were all the same when the projector was in frame. Again, I made sure all of the knobs were centered that evening.

The next day I walked down the row and all the knobs were in the proper position. I thought nothing more on the subject until I went over to one projector to thread up a loop of test film. I noticed that the intermittent was cranked again but the knob was level!

That lying little bastard actually had the balls to thread the projectors out of frame as normal (for him) and then reset the knob so that it LOOKED like it was in frame!

As far as I know, that kid STILL never ever threads in frame. I actually have a video clip of him starting a projector. He presses the button and his hand reflexively jumps from the start button to the framing knob!

You'd think this stupid little bastard would realize that it actually takes MORE effort to thread out of frame and reset the framing knob than it does to just do it right in the first place!


 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-30-2003, 12:37 AM:
 
Someone like that needs to be fired. Incompetent. Unwilling to correct wrong behavior even when told. But worst of all is lying. Why is he still employed?
 

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Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 03-30-2003, 04:54 AM:
 
Past fews days, an aprentice projectionist forget to re-set the framing knob on a Monee projector. And of course when it re-treath it the picture was out of frame...
Is tried to adjust it with the framing knob, but it was not suffiscient. (On a monee projector You can only "framing" on half picture) The Guy din't know what to do, he call the chief, the projector still running of course
Finally it stop the projector, and re-thread it four times before the picture appears right on the screen....
And the best of this story: He told to the chief: "It's not my fault, this projector sucks !"
I mean this guy sucks too
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-30-2003, 08:46 AM:
 
Why not just get rid of the framing knobs completely....they then have to thread in frame or risk having to shut down the show to re-frame......
Mark
 

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Posted by Mike Baer (Member # 1519) on 03-30-2003, 09:16 AM:
 

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The Guy din't know what to do, he call the chief, the projector still running of course
Finally it stop the projector, and re-thread it four times before the picture appears right on the screen....

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I think this guy should be fired.
How can this happen,that they can`t thread in Frame?Don`t they use the Flywheel-Knob to set the intermittent and only try and hope that it is in Frame?
The former Operater in this Multiplex that i`m working now,was the same idiot.Every Show he startet,he had to adjust the picture.
 

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Posted by Ray Brown (Member # 1449) on 03-30-2003, 10:00 AM:
 

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Then go a step further and give the flywheel a flip to be sure it stays in frame.

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This is a good habit to get in to and I always advance a couple frames by hand to make sure.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-30-2003, 10:42 AM:
 
Steve K.,

That's probably the leading reason why I quit.

One's ability to put up with idiots is directly proportional to the amount of moral support you have from family and other people. I was living 500 miles away from home at the time. If I had the ability to come home after a trip and say something like, "Boy! That kid, Adam, in Bristol, VA is an idiot!", I would have had more tolerance.

After a year's worth of putting up with idiots like him, day after day, I was simply worn out. An opportunity arose to get a job in my home town so I jumped.

That's my story in a nutshell.
 

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Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 03-30-2003, 12:49 PM:
 
Brad is correct -- lock the frame knob! My last 2 visits to the AMC Hamilton were for Willard (yesterday) and Cradle 2 the Grave. Both of those films are in scope. Both times the booth reset the framing as the preshow began. Both times the entire program was shown with the image too high.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-30-2003, 01:06 PM:
 
What do you do with a projector that doesn`t have a frame knob? Like the Kinoton FP30E, it has two buttons for up and down since the intermittent is controlled electronically. Those buttons micro-adjust the sprocket in both directions and there is no centered position. You can slowly turn the sprocket in either direction forever if you want. Sure, you could always disconnect these buttons, but why downgrade the functionality of your equipment to make up for incompetent operators?

To make threading easier, we have always used leaders of clear film with thin CS-style frame lines. You can see the aperture plate very well through the frames and see if the framing is OK. Many use old trailers as framing leaders. It is much more difficult to see what you are doing. This is also why we always use preconfigured leaders with attached sound trailers and company logos. They are never taken apart, only spliced on to the feature, to minimise the risk of splices out of frame.

I always insist that the people I train check the entire film path from platter to projector and back step by step. The film has to sit perfectly on all rollers and sprockets, it has to enter the projector the right way around (sound track outwards), and of course the framing has to be checked while advancing a few frames.
The FP30E has the advancing button on the front. I usually glue a little round felt pad on it so operators can easily find it even in the dark.
I have always insisted that this routine is adhered to for every single show every time. Even if time is pressing, it only takes a few moments and avoids bigger problems which will take much longer to solve.
Because if the film is not framed correctly and checked afterwards, chances are very good that it is also scratching somewhere and there is no knob to remove scratches from the film...
 

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Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 03-30-2003, 03:54 PM:
 

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Decently designed projectors (like Kinoton) have a framing center marking anyway.

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Michael,
the Kinoton "electronic drives" are IMHO just NOT decently designed projectors. Look at the many, many unsteady "E" installations, for example at the "Arsenal" in your hometown Berlin. When VERTIGO in 70mm was shown for the first time on their oh-so-great brand-new FP75E or whatever it`s called, they couldn`t get a steady picture.

I say electronic drive is just an attempt to replace something mechanical that performed fine for more than a century and lasts for decades with something that will pass out sooner and has an inferior performance.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-30-2003, 04:18 PM:
 
You can get a very steady picture with a FP30E. Maybe there was a problem with the print or the projector wasn`t maintained very well. There is a software to calibrate the image steadiness of the FP30E which works very well. I have worked with dozens of them, and I have to say they it is my favourite projector, even though the electronic sprocket is a bit sensitive sometimes.
Because the film transport is very quick, and there is more time to show the picture, you can get a very bright picture out. In one cinema I worked, we had triple blade shutters, and the image was virtually flicker-free at 72 frames.

A lot of innovative technologies are hampered by bad installations and maintenance. There are of course always children`s diseases which have to be remedied in the first phase, but if the result is good, it is always good to try something new out.

BTW, as I pointed out in my later post, the E series don`t have a framing marking anyway, the D projectors have it. Since the framing is controlled electronically, the E projectors have no central position.
 

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Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 03-30-2003, 04:57 PM:
 
I`d say, "if it ain`t broken, don`t fix it."

A maltese cross intermittent will last for many years without needing more than changing oil. It needs no software to have an excellent picture stability. Getting not enough light on the screen seems to me a thing of the past, in fact I see many multiplex theatres with too bright projection which increases flicker and takes out the black.

Michael, you know so much about this industry and the equipment manufacturers - if enough manufacturers used the electronic drive components, don`t you think they would be glad to phase out the production of high quality mechanical systems? Much more profitable to sell plugin/plugout components instead of mechanical parts that will last for decades?

We know an international manufacturer who tried to make a great number of sturdy, well running projectors obsolete by buying all available spare parts and destroying them after some years - don`t we?

"You can make it foolproof, but you can`t make it damn foolproof!"
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 03-30-2003, 07:16 PM:
 
The software for the E series projector is easy and the results are impressive. In the USA we recently finished two training seminars ( Boston and Los Angeles )in which E software training was given. In Boston we where projecting a two meter picture; and standing less than 50 cm from the image, the picture was rock steady. E movements have their place ( especially on huge wall to wall screens )and so does the maltese cross, which is a 400 year old mechanical concept
Richard Fowler
Kinoton America Inc.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-30-2003, 09:32 PM:
 
Michael, I have wanted Kinoton to have two framing controls for their E machines for a couple of years now. One just a push button on the front side that every time you push it, it will jump the framing by one whole perf (one button to go up, one button to go down). Then on the back side of the machine (preferably behind some kind of panel or in a box that can be locked if desired) have a "fine tuning" framing control like Kinoton currently has to tweek things dead on. (Alternatively the fine tuning framing control could be two buttons on the main control panel that have the option of being disabled in software.)

A further thing I have wanted to see Kinoton implement is automatic framing. Seriously, all that would be required is the above mentioned framing scenario plus a cue sensor in the gate. What would happen is somewhere near the end of the leader there would be a "center cue" placed on the frameline of the leader. When the film passed, it would sense how far off it was and instantaneously adjust (easily within a second) to hit the screen in frame all the time, guaranteed. To further this idea, there should be loop sensors similar to what is on the ST200. If the upper loop sensor shows the loop is too big, it would adjust it smaller. Same for the lower loop. The end result would be a machine that so long as someone got the soundtrack facing out, could just slap the film in there and the projector itself would tweek the framing and threading. Hopefully the engineers at Kinoton will try and pull this off. Sales of those machines to multiplexes would go through the roof.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-30-2003, 11:21 PM:
 
How about it senses if you're out of frame, makes the necessary correction, and logs it for your personnel file. Yes, if every house had these then framing while threading will be a thing of the past but that's unlikely and anything to stomp on stupid people, no?

I attended a show Friday night that was Scope and they had it framed low enough to see the frameline and a hair of the next frame. I finally went to complain. The "correction" involved first turning the knob the wrong way and then framing it so that the frameline was on the top of the screen. As this was a real scope film we still had negative splices and various strange business on the CG stuff. Glad I wasn't a paying customer.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-30-2003, 11:43 PM:
 
I removed the framing knob from a projector (as a test-run) and they simply went out and got a hex wrench to insert into the screw hole...

...how do you LOCK the framing mech on a Century type projector?
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-30-2003, 11:50 PM:
 
How do you lock it on a Shi... I mean Simplex?
 

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Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 03-31-2003, 03:52 AM:
 
You shouldn't have to lock any framing knob at all. When the machines cam from the factory Simplex projectors and Century (Whth new style metal knob) had the word "FRAME" horizontal at center. Older Century's had "Frame" rounded on the top of the knob. Motiograph did it best by having an indicator on the machine telling the operator for center and I think up & down. Making sure the machine is correct in knob position then give proper instruction to operators and / or a note to
"Center Frame Projector Before Threading All Shows"
or something close. I found some films needed a little tweeking on framing once an a while.
*******
Manny,
There are 2 screws, 1 film side & 1 gear side on a Century /Westrex machine that will clamp tight to the framing shaft. They are up near the front on 2 halves of a block holding the shaft. Tighten them up. This will lock up the shaft but they will probably figure it out.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-31-2003, 04:06 AM:
 
Brad, these are good ideas, but I am not sure if we really need those functions. Threading is not so difficult, and when operators can`t get even those simple and important steps - framing and loop sizes - right, they should porbably not be allowed to work at the projectors anyway! Especially since those people are also likely to damage the film with their carelessness.
At least the function with 1 perforation up or down might not be too difficult to implement. The intermittent is controlled by a programmable frequency converter manufactured by Lenze. I am not familiar with the parameters to program it, but my educated guess would be that it could be programmed for this function.
Maybe Richard or Larry of Kinoton America could swing in here and give us their thoughts about that.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-31-2003, 04:08 AM:
 
Thanks, Dick. I know just what you're talking about. I will try that and see what happens.

By the way...

The word "FRAME" engraved in white letters on the big red framing knob on these machines.

Alas, when the image is centred, the word "FRAME" does not read straight across. Instead, it is at an angle.
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 03-31-2003, 06:07 AM:
 
Richard wrote:

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E movements have their place ( especially on huge wall to wall screens )and so does the maltese cross

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I have used FP-30Ds, and older Kinoton machines, 35mm only, I have never used thier 16mm or 70mm ones, and I have never used the electronic models. What are the advantages and disadvantages of them, and when would you select an electronic rather than a mechanical machine, or vica versa.

How widely used are the electronic machines, I have seen loads of the mechanical machines, often quite old, but no electronic ones. How does the price compare between a new 'D', and an 'E'?
 

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Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 03-31-2003, 01:35 PM:
 
As an add-on to Stephen's question,

I've also wondered about the Kinoton electric projectors. The idea sounds very neat, but I've never seen on in person.
How much noise do they make compared to a standard projector? Are they loud or super quiet?

Danny
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-31-2003, 03:24 PM:
 
The E projectors are quite quiet, they make a brrrr sound like a cat. The electronic sprocket also has a very soft ringing sound to it. It sounds like a bell ringing in the distance...OK, let us not get poetic here. I am not saying, an electronic sprocket is generally much better, and the only way to go. We don`t want to make it a religious issue here. But I think it is a good invention, especially because the frames are transported very quickly, and you have more light out of the aperture.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-31-2003, 04:02 PM:
 
Don't mechanical high-speed intermittents transport frames fast?
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 03-31-2003, 04:40 PM:
 
The basic mechanical to electronic cinema model is not a great increase in cost but we realize that price is an important issue for some. The pull down on the electronic is very fast, so fast that it is almost impossible to see it move to the next frame when you are advancing manually with the threading knob. The intermittent spocket is oversized with more teeth in contact with the film to minimize damage due to the rapid pull down with little chatter ( "purr" as Herr Schaffer has noted ). The Lenze frequency drive only powers the motor on the feed sprockets on the electronic models ( while in the D series it produces power for the intermittent / shutter assembly motor for the entire transport ). The drive motor on the electronic version has a shaft encoder attached which works with the sensors on the shutter and intermittent motor via the control boards to bring everything into syncronization. In the first few seconds of operation the image is slightly less steady until all components have talked to each other and the software proceeds to make corrections...but even at the start, the "unsteadyness" appears better than a typical mechanical projector.
Richard Fowler
Kinoton America Inc.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-31-2003, 05:26 PM:
 
Does anybody know what the actual dwell period is on the electronic intermittent?

Just curious how it compares to a regular 4:1 intermittent at 1/32nd (0.03125) seconds and a high speed 5:1 intermittent at 1/30th (0.03333) seconds.
 

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Posted by Carl King (Member # 398) on 04-01-2003, 01:03 PM:
 
setting the frame rack in the middle of it's travel range and then threading up properly would be a help.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 04-01-2003, 02:56 PM:
 

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The intermittent spocket is oversized with more teeth in contact with the film

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The Lenze frequency drive only powers the motor on the feed sprockets on the electronic models

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You are right of course, I had overlooked that.
We once had to change the Lenze quickly and didn`t have the parameters at hand to program it, so the advance button functionality was not available at first. Which reminds me that I wanted to add that those machines have a very clever advance button: if you push it, it will advance a few frames slowly, if you hold it down for a moment, it will forward the film at regular speed without striking the lamp. I like that.

For the benefit of those members who have not seen it in action, I might add that the projector starts with the film transported continuously, then switches to intermittent movement once the projector is at speed and the various elements have been synchronised.
 

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Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 04-02-2003, 06:20 PM:
 
I had a problem at the theatre were I worked. I would come in in the morning only to find that when I went to thread everything was out of frame on every machine. So, I scratched my head in puzzlement and reframed every machine and all would be good throughout the day. THen I would come back in the am and all would be out of wack again So, I started asking my fellow "projectionists" if anyone was messing with the framing knobs. One idiot did admit to realigning each machine every night because the knobs looked prettier in a particular position! The projectors were Christies, and as we all know, there is a mark on both the framing handle and on the projector frame. My experience is that these marks are for general alignment and are not always exact. So after talking to and explaining things to the kid, he was polite and professional enough to carefully check his framing during each thread-up and rarely did he touch the knob. But there were some other idiots with whom I worked who had severe problems threading in frame...why, I do not know. But their framing was soo bad that the framing handle would be cranked to eiter full detent and the film would be run with screwed up loops all day! Yes, that is right, they were too stupid and lazy to at least recenter the framing knob between shows !
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 04-02-2003, 10:41 PM:
 
Will -- Sounds like what I go through every day.

I'm afraid to ask people why they don't thread in frame for fear of getting a dumb response like, "The projectors are just old. They never start in frame." or the classic, "It don't matter." *sigh*

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-03-2003, 03:16 AM:
 
Of course we are all predicating this on the assumption that there is actually someone in the booth who will SEE the frame-line in the middle of the screen and correct it. I recently sat through four trailers at the UA Sheepshead Bay in Brooklyn, all four running totally out of frame and no one was in the booth to be able to fix it. Even the non-professionals have to be physically present to see that big fat black frame line!

Frank
 

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Posted by Larry Zuverink (Member # 1483) on 04-03-2003, 02:25 PM:
 
We can all complain as much as we want here but the problem is that the idiots that can't start in frame wouldn't be on this sight.

Someone also said that it's going to happen as long as we don't pay projectionist what their worth. I've always believed and have never seen otherwise that lazy and incompetent people are that way no matter what they are paid and also professionals are professionals no matter what they are paid.

I totally agree good projectionists are under paid but thats another thread.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 04-03-2003, 06:15 PM:
 
I KNOW that there are many lurkers out there that couldn't start in frame if their life depended on it. I also know that there are some very, very competent professionals out there that also like to lurk.

A decent wage would attract more professionals. I know many great projectionists that would love to still be working in theatres but simply cannot afford to.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-03-2003, 06:34 PM:
 
I agree with Daryl.

If you analyze the situation, who can afford to work when the price of gasoline being what it is? Who can afford to work when some of the insurance companys are getting horny about the milage you put on the car getting to and from work? Who can afford to work when the taxes are so damned high that a worker basically works for nothing?

With these points in mind, who can afford to spend more money that what they make if they work a crappy paying job? If someone is on military retirement and social security, it is cheaper to stay home, especially when running part-time jobs for a supplemental income. If the correct amount of tax is withheld from these jobs, the jobs are really not worth going after because the paycheck is so damned small to begin with.

Yeah...you guessed it. I got nailed by IRS for an additional $3,200 because I made more than the government allowed me to make while drawing pension. After looking at the fuel burned to drive to and from work, wear and tear on the vehicle, insurance costs, etc. I am better off to stay home.

What I find amusing is high school graduates think they are going to land a $50,000 a year job as soon as they graduate are in for a nasty surprise. Most think they are going to go out and "set the world on fire" soon realize they are running out of matches.

For the young people on these forums:

Get a college education. You are not going to "make it" on a $10.00 per hour job. Those days are long gone.

(Edited for a stupid typo. )

[ 04-03-2003, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Paul G. Thompson ]
 

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Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 04-03-2003, 08:33 PM:
 
Christian,

I'm sorry you've seen som badly adjusted E's. Of course anything can be made to work poorly. And I personally believe in the part of Murphy's law that says "Anything that improves a device can be made to screw that device up worse than ever". However there is really no question that the E movement can project a better picture than a Geneva, our's or others'. No way is it inferior! And they do last; just last week I was at Warner Bros in Burbank where one of the first EC's was installed. It's still in use every day (including slewing forward and reverse at 300 fps) after about 12 years (FWIW they were working on Matrix II that day). And meanwhile Warners has bought EC's for all its mix/ADR rooms in Burbank and Hollywood, so I guess they're satisfied.

But don't worry, there is no plan to stop making Genevas. In fact within the last few years Kinoton has spent a huge amount on specialized high precision CNC machining centers so they can make the stars and cams ,etc in house. I think they are the only (quality) company doing this. Genevas are wonderful devices and for many screens the advantages of the E can't really be justified. And as long as price is the driving force in cinema equipment selection the Geneva will be with us. It will be a long, long time before an E will cost less than a D.

Brad,

Doing the "advance 1 perf" button wouldn't be too hard (I'd only have 1, just keep pushing until you like it). I will pass this idea along to the designers.

The auto-framing could also be done, but who is going to get the kiddos to put the cues on correctly? Of course they'd have to be on each trailer, snipe and reel of the feature because splicing is so difficult to do in frame. And if some old center cue was left on the film from a previous theatre, or if one's automation used center cues......

Auto loop setting also could be done, but this would not be cheap to accomplish. In fact a mechanism of this sort was used on the MC's years ago. Of course other things like a "gate closed" switch (the FP-16's had one) would not be a bad idea either.

Unfortunately the reality is that the theatre owners just won't pay for such things. As an example, Kinoton offered a auto-focus option a few years ago. Many tens (hundreds?) of thousands were spent developing it. A special video camera monitored the screen and a computer drove a very fast focus motor. I saw a demo in Germany. It worked great, you couldn't notice it focusing, but the image was always razor sharp, even when running short bits of different stocks. A thing like this would be a real boon to the industry, right? Especially in theatres with giant screens? How many were bought worldwide? Less than 10. It was discontinued.

I think you can understand why the real world buying habits of thatre owners has a chilling effect on Kinoton's designs for cinema (as opposed to studio) equipment.

Daryl,

Some advantages of the E over the high speed Genevas (HSG):
1. In my experience the HSG doesn't last nearly as long as normal Genevas.
2. The HSG goes from 0 to full speed almost instantly, the E ramps up and down to protect film and reduce image jitter.
3. As Richard noted the large sprocket helps with film damage.
4. Field adjustment software eliminates jump.
5. Movement always stops "in lock", harder for kids to screw up framing.
6. In my experience the HSG isn't as steady as normal Genevas.
7. Continuous -and remotable- framing.

I don't offhand know the dwell time, but I know that they chose to leave extra time between lock and shutter opening to allow the frame to stabilize fully, in other words they opted to go for enhanced stability over squeezing every bit of light through a less-than-optimally-stable image.

And I do agree with you that paying for professional projectionists is the right soloution.

Michael,

Despite the sound you hear, no cats were harmed in the making of these intermittents!
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-03-2003, 08:40 PM:
 
Thanks for your detailed answers, Larry. Yes I would very much like to see a "jump one perf" option along with a way to prevent (physical or software) the kiddies from ever being able to "fine tune" the framing between perfs.

In regards to the auto framing, I was simply using the assumption that every theater has at least one person who can splice in frame. (This person usually builds the films.) That being the case, he puts the cues on the leaders once when they are built and that's the end of that. No more misframes.

I am very interested about the discontinued auto focusing feature. What was the approximate cost of this? Were there any limitations? Did it work in dark scenes? Could it ever be sold again? You know, you can never have too much automation, no matter what that Steve guy says!
 

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Posted by Don Bruechert (Member # 1538) on 04-03-2003, 09:19 PM:
 
Wow... You guys make $10 an hour?? I'm impressed! I get $7.50 and I'm both a manager and a projectionist (one of a team of 5).
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 04-03-2003, 10:06 PM:
 
Thanks for the reply Larry!

A thought on the auto-framing... technically, there's no reason why a laser or CCD couldn't easily pick up frame lines on a threading leader. No need for extra cues on the print. Of course, engineers can only be held responsible for so much operator stupidity. This is definetely one thing that I don't think they (product engineers) should have to deal with. In fact, I'm against such a feature as it would only help crappy theatres to continue to put on somewhat better crappy presentations.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-03-2003, 10:50 PM:
 
Don, the minimum wage here in Washington State is now $7.01 per hour. Now don't everyone jump on the bandwagon and move here....

...seems that is all that is up here is minimum wage jobs. The minimummer, the better! That's what the employers think.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 04-04-2003, 01:13 AM:
 

quote:

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For the young people on these forums:

Get a college education. You are not going to "make it" on a $10.00 per hour job. Those days are long gone.

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Yeah. What Don said. Where are these $10/hr jobs you speak of and what sort of great feats must one accomplish to be paid such a generous wage?? I make a little more than half that!

The auto-focus feature on the Kinotons sounds like a cool idea, but I could see some potential problems, such as the auto-focus failing and running a show out of focus until someone struts up there and fixes it. Also, in some less-than-able-staffed multiplexes, if someone messes with the lens (or messes with anything else for that matter) it might actually be counter-productive.

I'm curious about the little camera that "sees" whether the film is in focus or not. I assume the camera's lens would need maintenance as well? Is the camera housed in some sort of casing, or is it designed in some way so as to not be tampered with or "tapped" into by bootleggers? (Imagine... RAZOR SHARP bootlegs! Valenti would have that heart attack for sure...)

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Art Averett (Member # 367) on 04-04-2003, 07:16 AM:
 
Why not make every projector a straight shaft and end the framimg nightmare.
 

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Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 04-04-2003, 08:22 AM:
 
HEY!

BAUERS have a GIANT arrow to show where the intermittant should be racked, for the dummies

But that does not help them get to get 8 in the gate, or help them get it in frame, in a one in 25 percent chance.

Im, training 2 more, AGAIN, yes I'll teach them properly, (even show them real projectors like Vic 8's and Centuries) then the company will steal them to another location to play with Christies (that always scares them) but what can you do.

Bill.
 

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Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 04-20-2003, 12:38 PM:
 
The AMC Hamilton yesterday afternoon: Show started with the NCN snipe in frame. When the "Theater Exit" snipe hit the booth jockey turned the frame knob and moved the image up. Stayed that way all through the preshow and trailers -- I could see a black bar at the bottom of the Finding Nemo trailer. The booth jockey didn't put the image back in frame until midway through R1. All this on a flat ratio picture (Bend It Like Beckham).

I said it before and I'll say it again: Brad is correct -- LOCK the frame knob!
 

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