Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Notes in film cans

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-05-2003, 02:26 PM:

This is a continuation of the discussion that wandered from here.

Where are you guys putting your notes? I find if they are in the bottom of the film can, they get ignored. Anytime I insert a note I fold the piece of paper in half and slide it in between the roll of film and reel flange of reel 1. A small piece of tape helps to ensure that the next projectionist sees it.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 04-05-2003, 02:50 PM:

I just wish that more film editors would refrain from starting/ending reels with fades to/from black. Just nip that problem in the bud and it would solve all of the projection-related problems associated with that.

My note would say:

Attention Filmmaker -- This print was butchered by a minimum-wage projectionist because your well-paid professional film editor is evil and ignorant. Stop and think a while about the reality of what's going to happen to your movie and remember -- that minimum-wage worker always gets final cut.

Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 04-05-2003, 03:14 PM:

Manny wrote...

quote:
I just wish that more film editors would refrain from starting/ending reels with fades to/from black. Just nip that problem in the bud and it would solve all of the projection-related problems associated with that.

That documentary was shot and edited on video with television broadcast in mind (hence the fades), then transferred to 35mm for festival screenings and other kinds of theatrical exhibition. I guess we have to give the editor the benefit of a doubt this time. [Smile]

Brad, IIRC, I stuck the note between the reels. Stuffing the note inside the reel flange sounds like a good idea, though.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 04-05-2003, 03:48 PM:

Taped to the inside of the top of the reel can seems to work well. It jumps right at you.

Other than that, either between the reel flange and the film of
R1, or perhaps better is folded in an arc from the either side of the film between the flanges...so it cannot be missed.

--jhawk

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-05-2003, 07:00 PM:

As a separate thing I was also thinking it might be entertaining to do a sort of message-in-a-bottle kind of thing where you ask the person encountering the note to log on to some site (presuming they have net access) and post where they encountered the print. For the typical big studio release it wouldn't be that interesting but on a smaller art film that travels widely it could be fun.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-05-2003, 08:08 PM:

Even more interesting was considering the recycling of cases what title was in the case

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-05-2003, 08:35 PM:

I like to remove the excess labeling crap from cans when possible and often one encounters some interesting old labels. (I also try to apply nice new labels to those cans that need them.) I know I saw a Railway Express Agency label on one of the old heavyweight cans.

Posted by Chris Markiewicz (Member # 1415) on 04-05-2003, 09:55 PM:

I've seen several paper label IATSE local election ads inside the lids of the old cans...from all over the country and dating back to the 1940s. Even after 50-odd years of shipping and TES those cans are still intact! Of course, hauling those old 4-reel cans upstairs is lots of fun.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-05-2003, 10:50 PM:

I've never received a print containing any sort of note from a previous theatre (filmmakers' personal prints at festivals and stuff written on leaders don't count), although I have sent out a number of prints with detailed notes (usually along the lines of "this print is in bad condition...here's what's wrong...not our fault...probably should request a replacement"). I have used Brad's method of sticking the folded piece of paper in the first reel (between the film and the reel flange). If I don't have much to say, I'll sometimes write a quick note on the leader instead of writing it on a separate piece of paper.

Stickers on film can lids aren't that rare. The old union ones are fun, as are the Will Rogers "save copper drippings" ads. (So, um, where do I send the copper?) I also like the older cans that have studio names stamped on the outside; I've seen Technicolor-orange cans that have "RKO" stamped into the metal...

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-06-2003, 01:09 PM:

quote:
I just wish that more film editors would refrain from starting/ending reels with fades to/from black. Just nip that problem in the bud and it would solve all of the projection-related problems associated with that.

Film editors were actually taught to do that in order to minimise the chances of a botched changeover, and if the changeover is botched, to minimise its on-screen impact. Both Edward Dmytryk's and Karel Reisz's books on film editing (which, in updated editions, are still standard texts in film schools) contain this instruction.

Personally I agree - it's out of date. As the vast majority of cinemas use a long-play system now, I'd suggest that editors should be taught, where possible, to place reel ends during a dark scene (in order to minimise the impact of dirty reel-ends) but not such a dark scene that a projectionist is likely to have trouble identifying the frame line.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-06-2003, 01:24 PM:

On the topic of "where to put reel changes," I'd add that they should be at scene changes (not just cuts within the same scene) and that there should be no significant action or dialogue after the second cue mark or within the first few frames of each reel, in order to avoid problems with frame loss due to mis-timed changeovers or missing frames due to incompetent booth monkeys. Obviously, no music should carry across a reel change ("Dare Devil" is the most recent offender of this, although there are many other such films, both old and new).

I have no problem with reel changes at fadeouts/fadeins, as long as the cue marks are easily visible and as long as the framelines are marked on the the leaders, and this is common on older titles from the 1930s and 1940s, especially. I wouldn't recommend that editors do this now, though, due to the possibility of careless platter/large-reel makeup.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 04-06-2003, 01:31 PM:

I'm willing to bet that part of the problem is that more and more film editors today have little or no contact with the film anymore and, thus, have lost touch wtih the notion that the film will have to be broken down for shipping and then reconstituted in the theatre.

Hollywood folks surely seem to be out of touch with the reality that it's going to be a teenager who may or may not be passionate about the job -- and, even if s/he is, there's never a guarantee that the theatre s/he works for will nurture or inspire any passion.

I wonder if a note from another projectionist would get read. I hate to be all negative and stuff but my bet is that the note would get tossed along with all the other notes that come in from the studios.

There have been waves of "note mania" in the past and I remember a lot of those going straight into the trash. I haven't seen any "TAP" notices lately, but those used to be pages and pages. And then there were all those flyers that used to come in saying which trailer goes where. So many projectionists I knew just totally ignored those -- partially, because they were working for a chain that dictated where the trailers would go.

The last note that I personally saw was ridiculous -- it accompanied "The Scorpion King" and it said that The Rock (!) wanted me to do this and that to make sure that we gave the best presentation. I didn't know he cared! Right into the trash...

Oh, no! THAT wasn't the last note I saw...

The last note I saw was a reminder to return DTS discs with movies. Well it's really no wonder that those things never make it back into the canisters: after all, they don't ARRIVE with the movie. But that's a whole other issue.

My point is that if part of the movie is getting left behind, what chance does a note have?

...and, besides, a note from another projectionist is at risk of coming across as being a little preachy

Let's play a game! This one's called devil's advocate. I'll be playing the role of a 17 year old who thought it'd be cool to work in a movie theatre for free admission. This particular worker couldn't wait to get into the booth for two important reasons. First and foremost, he wouldn't have to suffer the humiliation of actually being seen (and heckled) by his friends when they come to see a movie. Second, he figures that projectionists have a pretty kick-back job. "It's all automatic."

So this is the guy who's most likely to get a well-intentioned note and here's how I imagine the episode will play out...

quote:
If you are the first user to build this print to a platter or big reels you may leave a single frame on with the leaders to assure correct reel identity in the future. But NEVER more than one. DO NOT cut off fades when you have difficulty finding the frame line. Take the trouble to find it so you can present the movie the director intended!

Oh? I may leave one frame? Since when do I need permission? And what's all this about NEVER more than one? We'll just see about that -- here go FOUR reference frames. The note suddenly becomes impotent and, in an odd twist, the inspiration to do a bad job out of pure spite.

And since when are we all buddy-buddy with the director? If he cared so much, he'd pay me well to run the movies and leave the theatre folks to sell the popcorn.

quote:
If this print has previously been built please open the existing splice and DO NOT MAKE A NEW CUT! Peel the old tape.
Use quality splicing tape that peels cleanly with no residue.
Clear splicing tape will give your audience the best possible presentation.

Hey, I only work here! But okay, since you insist, I will go into the supply cabinet and bust out that roll of quality splicing tape that I've been saving for just this occasion. This projectionist is stuck with what his management orders. He doesn't have the option to go get some good tape. Nor does he have the inclination. Especially if this is Cuba Gooding Jr's latest outing.

quote:
Never put any foreign matter on the film to mark splices. If you have problems finding the splice on breakdown consider marking the diameter of the film pack on the shipping reels before building your print so when you break down the print you can quickly wind the correct amount of film onto the reel before looking for the splice.

Adjust your makeup table rollers correctly so the film does rub on anything that will scratch it including the edge of the platter disk.
When breaking down the print reattach leaders with a one-sided splice using your splicer. The next person can open this splice with a quick twist. Resplicing leaders gives the best protection to the print. NEVER EVER HANG THE LEADERS BACK ON WITH PAPER TAPE! SPLICE THEM!

Here we go with the "N" word again. This segment starts with it and ends with it -- IN CAPS!!!

Here's a tip: never say never.

quote:
If the print came with bands please use them! Don't cut the strings when opening a new print.

You're joking, right!?

quote:
Recheck your threading before starting to make sure the film passes over the various rollers correctly. While running periodically recheck to make sure film is not riding over some roller in a way that will scratch it.

Tweak your focus during the feature. Trailers and other pre-show elements may not focus the same as the feature and lenses may shift in focus as they warm up.

Do keep the print clean. If you have a film cleaner use it regularly.

Did I ever mention how much I despise lists that break things down into "Do's" and "Dont's"? But, since we're going there...here's one to add:

DON'T tell me how to do my job!

quote:
Don't take shortcuts that put the print at risk. It's not worth damaging the print to save a minute here or a few seconds there. Treat the print as though it was your personal copy of your favorite film.

I used to have a favorite film until I started working this crappy gig. Now I hate going to the movies. I got this job because I wanted free movies and now on my day off the last thing I want to do is see a movie.

quote:
Do read http://www.film-tech.com on the Internet to learn more about your craft.

Dude, this is my JOB. This is soooo NOT my craft!

That's honestly what I think would happen.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with all the practices that are outlined in the proposed note. That's not the issue I have. I'm more concerned about how a note like that would be interpreted. The tone would have to be pulled waaaay back. Somebody also suggested shortening it down to the most important points. I agree. A long note will either get ignored or become the object of passive-aggressive acts of revenge.

Maybe a simple flyer that says...

"Serious about film presentation? Visit www.film-tech.com "

...would have a greater impact.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-06-2003, 04:42 PM:

Manny, you have managed to say what I was about to post. These kids either care of they don't. A note telling them how to do their jobs will only make them want to screw it up for their own humor. Also, anything more than about 2 sentences will not be read. Notes in cans are almost like spam emails. You only need to read the title to know if it is spam or not. When I see a note that says "ATTENTION PROJECTIONIST" at the top that is obviously formatted to regard trailers, it goes in the trash without wasting any more of my time. Nowadays though I find myself just leaving the notes in the bottom of the film cans, not even bothering to pull them out to check them. Judging from all of the papers in the bottom of film cans these days, I would suspect I am not the only one. This is why when I need to send a note to the next projectionist, I stick it in between the film roll and reel flange.

BTW, "The Rock" can shove it. When I saw that note it served as a reminder of the godawful sound mixes in the previous Mummy movies, and I went over and programmed the fader down a full notch. (Just like Manny said would happen, except in this case when I screened the movie I ended up turning it down much more because it was so offensive to the ears I knew we would still get complaints.)

Maybe someone like Bobby or Adam could design something we could put in a pdf file for download that could be printed and stuck in the cans?

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 04-06-2003, 06:32 PM:

I actually kept one note I found in a film can, and have it hanging on my fridge, because I thought it was too funny.
The note in question is the one from Adam Sandler regarding the short film with his dog Meatball. It was just plain amusing.
[Big Grin]

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-06-2003, 10:42 PM:

The wording and tone can always be adjusted. As for shortening it I tend to think if you're going to shorten it for fear that some will feel too taxed to bother to read it you would end up shortening it down to maybe 3 lines and it's not worth the trouble then. So might as well work in everything that matters. You may find some people reading it just out of boredom. This sort of note is not really going to make a bit of difference to those who could care less (and some of them already know how to do it the right way and choose not to).

But there are some out there who do care and simply never had anyone tell them anything about doing a good job. Such a note is for them.

Now here's an idea: What if we made it into a little comic book? One of our independent papers here in Chicago once did a complete history of the now-shuttered movie palace Uptown Theatre as a comic strip and it was nothing short of brilliant.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-06-2003, 11:10 PM:

This sounds like a job for Joe Redifer! He has made many amusing booth cartoons. [Smile]

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 04-07-2003, 12:30 AM:

I think that Steve's idea is an idea with merit; I suspect that trying to hash it out here on the forums may not be the most productive way to approach it. I think perhaps a group of us who think it's a reasonable idea can get together offline and spend a while hashing out wording and then show FT periodic drafts.

WRT Darryl's comment, I do think that if the document is written with reasonable principles of document design, it's possible to have short text at the top read by those in a hurry, but still have plenty of meaty details for those who want to know. Using different size fonts, clear seperation, and graphic elements can go along way. You can never perfectly satisfy either camp, but you can find a happy medium where both do benefit.

I agree there are definitely issues with tone. It's necessary to strike a balance between speaking with authority and speaking with condescension. It's reasonable to accept that some people may not like whatever you write, so the may have to be written off, but the goal is to simultaneously educate as many as possible by being firm and clear, without alienating.

Manny, I'm not sure what the point of your comments is. You can always read anything sarcastically, and some people probably will. Nonetheless, some people will read anything sarcastically, and their existance is no reason to not speak clearly and properly to those who will not read in that fashion.

I'd appreciate it also if you could clarify your comment about reel bands. You are definitely not clear on what you mean, and I think clarity is important in this discussion.

Comic book? I think you'd have a lot of difficulty conveying all the information that ought to be conveyed. I suppose if it was a 2-sided 8.5x11 paper folded in half with a comic cover on the front, though, that would be a nice intriguing presentation that could work. Perhaps the comic running on each of the 4 pages n the bottom or top 3"...

--jhawk

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 04-07-2003, 03:34 AM:

John --

The point of my comment is that I think the most of the people who would read that document without the alleged sarcasm would be people who already know and agree with its message. My bet is that in most cases it would be a case of "preaching to the choir."

Not only do I think it would amount to a waste of time and effort but -- as I thought I had clearly illustrated -- it could easily inspire an average projectionist who makes a number of mistakes and has occasional accidents to become a passive-aggressive projectionist who deliberately does poor work in retaliation against a system that seems to expect so much of him without compensating adequately him for the level of work expected.

In fairness, I think that these multiplexes who hire teenagers are not expecting fabulous projection. I think they feel that they are getting what they pay for and I don't believe that multiplex operators really care about showmanship or professionalism when it comes to the booth.

These notes coming in film cans are the problem -- someone somewhere is still expecting fabulous showmanship. I'm not poo-pooing excellence, mind you. I'm just saying that everyone needs to be realistic about what's going on in this industry. Kids are running the movies and kids are kids. Nine times out of ten they are most likely to resist or reject authority figures. A piece of paper has no power and, in this kind of situation, could end up causing more harm than good.

I'm not a mind-reader, and I haven't talked about any of this with Steve Kraus (who fashioned the proposed letter) but that note comes across as having been written from a position of frustration. It reads like a laundry list of all the things he's sick and tired of encountering. In essence, it is a rant against his pet peeves and, hence, I don't think I read sarcasm into it. On the contrary, that note has a decidedly confrontational and elitist tone (sorry, Steve [Frown]

) and I feel that my predicted response is, in all likelihood, quite close to the musical truth.

As for the reel bands -- Every single booth I've ever been inside I have seen those bands in the trash. Nobody I've ever met actually saves those things and returns them. And I fail to see what purpose they serve in the first place. ETS and its clients don't think reel bands are important so why is TES so "up" on using them? Furthermore, if they don't arrive intact then why the heck should they go back intact?

So many of us have gripes with TES that I would find it intriguing if this paper band thing is the one thing we're latching onto.

"Oh, those idiots at Technicolor want us to rush to break down our prints too quickly. Those idiots at Technicolor keep sending broken reels and used prints. And then there were all those times I had to send back my Sneak Preview print so they could send me another copy for the real opening just a few days later. Oh, but that paper band thing! That's proof that someone up there still cares about showmanship. When the paper band thing goes, then we'll know for sure that Technicolor is finished..."

I mean...REALLY NOW!!!

Once upon a time they used to actually provide useful info on those bands. This was before the big block letters started getting printed on the actual leaders. Back then perhaps it all made sense, but now they don't even bother labeling them anymore. Personally, I think that those film bands are nothing more than an empty tradition that no longer means anything. One more thing to worry about that won't affect anybody's bottom line.

Sure I used to keep them when I was still handling film but I was a well-paid professional projectionist who was passionate about the CRAFT. I don't hold it against minimum-wage workers if they lack that drive, especially when it comes to areas that don't seem critical.

I don't know if I can make my position any clearer, John.

I envy people who work in textbook environments. At the same time, I have a fair amount of empathy for those who don't.

[ 04-07-2003, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Manny Knowles ]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-07-2003, 04:07 AM:

If there is specific information about a print which it would help the next projectionist to be forewarned of, I tended to write it on the head spacing of the reel itself rather than leave a note in the can. Just something like 'low contrast VD track - watch volume' or 'watch racking on subtitles' is all you need, and a note on the spacing is likely to last longer than a separate piece of paper in the can.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 04-07-2003, 09:24 AM:

"Spacing" = "Leader" ?

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 04-07-2003, 09:30 AM:

Manny,

Please see my detailed reply to your concerns about reel bands in the reel bands thread. It would be cool to stay a bit more on topic on this thread, and not have it get too tangential.

Addendum: Manny is quite right, I did ask in this thread and he was perfectly right to reply here; I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. Merely that it seemed to me that it had gone sufficiently far-afield that taking it to the "thread where it belongs" is more appropriate.

--jhawk

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 04-07-2003, 09:44 AM:

My comment about reel bands was exactly 3 words. You asked me in this thread to expand on this comment. Perhaps you ought to have specified beforehand your preference vis-a-vis filing of that response. I do not feel that I am responsible for taking the thread off-topic.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-07-2003, 10:16 AM:

The way I was taught to use the terms, 'spacing' = length of unmarked film stock at the start and end of each reel; 'leader' = SMPTE or Academy countdown leader (i.e. the section between the 'head' mark and the first picture frame).